Hurricanes Lounge XXX: The "Will I Stay or Will I Go?" edition

[Unsustainable]

A big problem of a public education, other than it’s purpose is not to fill our children with knowledge, is that they do not teach logical fallacies.

 

[Lempo]

A big problem of a public education, other than it’s purpose is not to fill our children with knowledge, is that they do not teach logical fallacies.

That's what the other people on the internet are for.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

Everybody hates "the media" these days unless it's something they agree with, then it's cool.

A journalism class of some sort should be standard in every high school in America, IMO. As much time as we sit around reading sources of information nowadays, we should be providing people with the ability to not only recognizes biases in writing, but also to recognize that you're bringing your own bias as a reader and projecting that onto the writer as well.

I’ve found the best way to navigate life in the last ten years or so is to not read or watch the news. It’s much more fun this way.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Something like this is really needed. Good critical reading skills are in short supply and desperately needed in this country. It's a shame that those who consistently advocate for less educational spending are the ones that directly benefit from voters who don't have these skills.

I don't disagree with you, but don't think it will help for most people. I find that most (all?) people are well aware of their biases and frankly don't care. No amount of information, no matter how compelling, is going to change their opinion.

 

[MinJaBen]

I don't disagree with you, but don't think it will help for most people. I find that most (all?) people are well aware of their biases and frankly don't care. No amount of information, no matter how compelling, is going to change their opinion.

I don't think this is remotely true. And to be clear, I am not just talking about politics here.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I don't think this is remotely true. And to be clear, I am not just talking about politics here.

I referring to mainly politics and sports, but it's clear you have a bias against this opinion, so nothing I say would ever convince you.

In other areas of life, you are probably right.

 

[DaveG]

I don't think this is remotely true. And to be clear, I am not just talking about politics here.

The Undoing Project is a pretty good read somewhat related to this very thing in fact.

Though I can't disagree with bba relating to there still being a good number of people that are perfectly aware of their biases and still dgaf.

 

[MinJaBen]

I referring to mainly politics and sports, but it's clear you have a bias against this opinion, so nothing I say would ever convince you.

In other areas of life, you are probably right.

I don't think I do.....which if true, proves me right.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I don't think I do.....which if true, proves me right.

You do, but you don't care that you do so you choose to lie about it, which proves me right.

 

[MinJaBen]

You do, but you don't care that you do so you choose to lie about it, which proves me right.

 

[Unsustainable]

I’ve found the best way to navigate life in the last ten years or so is to not read or watch the news. It’s much more fun this way.

the only way I follow news is with memes. Lol.

 

[SvechneJerk]

the only way I follow news is with memes. Lol.

 

[MinJaBen]

 

[SvechneJerk]

 

[Surrounded By Ahos]

Wait till he gets going!

 

[The Stranger]

Something like this is really needed. Good critical reading skills are in short supply and desperately needed in this country. It's a shame that those who consistently advocate for less educational spending are the ones that directly benefit from voters who don't have these skills.

OK...I was interested and decided to look up some data.

1) Per pupil funding in the US is quite high relative to to other countries (Link). Only Norway is higher. If good critical reading skills are truly in short supply, perhaps it is not caused by insufficient funding.

2) On the topic of voter affiliation as a function of educational attainment, I found this Pew research study data. Specifically "Among those with no more than a high school education, 47% affiliate with the GOP or lean Republican, while 45% identify as Democrats or lean Democratic. Democrats held a significant advantage among voters with a high school degree or less education for much of the late 1990s through early 2000s, and as recently as 2014 (47% Democratic, 42% Republican)."

 

[Roboturner913]

1) Per pupil funding in the US is quite high relative to to other countries (Link). Only Norway is higher. If good critical reading skills are truly in short supply, perhaps it is not caused by insufficient funding.

I don't think it has anything to do with funding, it's that priorities are so heavily tilted toward toward STEM disciplines.

I learned more about life from a couple of college English lit professors and my high school art and music teachers than all the rest of them combined. But those fields of study aren't celebrated/barely tolerated by a good chunk of the populace and I think the consequences of that are going to end up being devastating when it's all said and done.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Thought this (the development plan, not the petition) was interesting in light of our fairgrounds development discussion the other day.

Online petition fuels opposition to plans for change at State Farmers Market :: WRAL.com

 

[Roboturner913]

Also I wonder how much of that educational spending is going to security forces (needed, in some places I'll readily admit), highly overpaid administrators, and god only knows what other wasteful spending.

The superintendent of public schools in our district made $260,000 last year. He makes more than the mayor and the governor, combined. And he gets a $12,000 a year car stipend. Meanwhile a starting teacher salary is like $36,000 and the averaged tenured teacher makes around $45,000. Meanwhle more than 50% of students have outstanding debt to the school system for textbooks/technology fees/lunches, etc. There's something just a little bit wrong with that picture.

 

[emptyNedder]

Though I can't disagree with bba relating to there still being a good number of people that are perfectly aware of their biases and still dgaf.

I haven't followed this thread in a few days—so it will be TLR

I don't think people are completely aware of their biases—they think they have the TRUTH. That is different than saying "I know I am somewhat wrong but I dgaf." Let me give my own example from this group. Almost all the advanced statistics indicate that Pesce and Slavin are pretty close in impact on the ice. In fact, Pesce leads according to things like EvolvingHockey's WAR and Dom L's analysis of contract value at The Athletic. Yet, when I first argued that Pesce was as good I was told it was "not close enough" to even warrant discussion and that I was "nonsensical." The bias toward Slavin is due to two things: 1)Slavin makes more "pretty" plays; 2)Tripp waxes rhapsodic about Slavin more than any other Cane. My guess is few of the folks who dismissed my statistical argument realized their "truth" was based on these. FWIW, I admit that Slavin has been better than Pesce (mostly due to offensive production beside Hamilton) so far this season.
Related to the critical thinking argument, much of it is either innumeracy or the inability to deal with cognitive dissonance/paradox. In the economics world the paradox of thrift is a good test for someone's critical thinking skills. Many argue that common sense tells us that the government is like a household and needs to reduce spending during a recession—the logical conclusion of that is that recession turns into depression if everyone simultaneously reduces spending. (I understand the role of minor recessions in eliminating financial bubbles and other sectional imbalances, but for wider recessions the paradox of thrift holds). Common sense has its place, but it often signals that one party is unwilling to think more critically about the subject at hand.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I haven't followed this thread in a few days—so it will be TLR

I don't think people are completely aware of their biases—they think they have the TRUTH. That is different than saying "I know I am somewhat wrong but I dgaf." Let me give my own example from this group.

My statement was admittedly, a bit over-reaching and I said as much in a follow-up post that I was more aiming it with respect to politics and sports (fandom).

Another example is many parents are aware of it with their kids. I don't know how many times I've heard "I know I'm biased because it's my kid, but..." Most parents (but not all), are aware they are biased when it comes to their kid and I won't say they "DGAF" that they are biased, but they aren't willing to change that bias no matter what information is in front of them. We all do it as a parent as it's natural to want to protect a child. Politics is another area, but I'll stay away from that since it's not permitted on this site. Sports fandom is the other one I was aiming at. Michigan fans know they are biased against Ohio State and don't care and most won't ever give Ohio State credit no matter what. Brand loyalty is another. I have friends who are adamant about Ford Trucks vs. Chevy vs. Dodge. They would NEVER buy one of the other brands regardless of price, quality, features, etc... They know about their bias and DGAF.

Certainly, there are a lot of situations where people aren't aware of their bias as well as Minjaben and you have stated. My main point was that someone being aware of their bias won't always change their opinion because they become aware of that bias, particularly in politics and sport. Clearly this is a generalization as no two people are the same.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

I don't think it has anything to do with funding, it's that priorities are so heavily tilted toward toward STEM disciplines.

I learned more about life from a couple of college English lit professors and my high school art and music teachers than all the rest of them combined. But those fields of study aren't celebrated/barely tolerated by a good chunk of the populace and I think the consequences of that are going to end up being devastating when it's all said and done.

There will always be a place for the history professor, or the English teacher, or whatever other “humanities” discipline you can think of.

It’s just that there seems to be this mass movement towards gender/women’s studies, African American studies, etc.....there’s only so many jobs there. These aren’t things too many people can make a living at. STEM are.

I do like the push (or seeming push) towards trade schools.

 

[MinJaBen]

1) Per pupil funding in the US is quite high relative to to other countries (Link). Only Norway is higher. If good critical reading skills are truly in short supply, perhaps it is not caused by insufficient funding.

That's an interesting link and statistic. I don't doubt that it is correct, but I also know it is meaningless on the ground. To use the average per pupil funding in the US as some metric is as accurate as using the average per pupil funding in the world to draw a conclusion about it's quality or lack thereof. Per pupil funding is not set at a national level in the US (nor state level as far as I know anywhere). Does anyone here believe that the education systems of Lumberton and Cary are getting the same amount of spending per pupil? It is a nonsensical statistic.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

That's an interesting link and statistic. I don't doubt that it is correct, but I also know it is meaningless on the ground. To use the average per pupil funding in the US as some metric is as accurate as using the average per pupil funding in the world to draw a conclusion about it's quality or lack thereof. Per pupil funding is not set at a national level in the US (nor state level as far as I know anywhere). Does anyone here believe that the education systems of Lumberton and Cary are getting the same amount of spending per pupil? It is a nonsensical statistic.

I’ve got a buddy who teaches at a middle school in Cary. They could spend millions per pupil, it wouldn’t matter. What a gong show.

 

[raynman]

There will always be a place for the history professor, or the English teacher, or whatever other “humanities” discipline you can think of.

It’s just that there seems to be this mass movement towards gender/women’s studies, African American studies, etc.....there’s only so many jobs there. These aren’t things too many people can make a living at. STEM are.

I do like the push (or seeming push) towards trade schools.

In 2015 I graduated from a community college with a CNC machining degree (trade school). Had two job offers before graduation. In 2016 I went back to school to finish up my bachelor’s. Took a year and a half to find something and I make less now than I did with my associate’s in 2015. But hey at least I have a $20k piece of paper that says I went to college!