Olympics: How will Chinese NT look in 2022?

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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I don't agree with the participation in soccer in China being huge. Soccer has been marred by cases of corruption that government-led initiatives have only recently fought to fix. Until recently, this has driven many people away from soccer in China, as parents have been reluctant to enroll their children in soccer programs associated with corruption. This, along with the corruption present within the leagues and development systems, has driven the quality of soccer in China downward. In addition, contrary to your beliefs that soccer participation in China is huge, the Chinese Football Association reported that in 2011, there were fewer than 10,000 registered soccer players in China. As I said, government initiatives have only recently sought to remedy these issues by seeking to remove corruption in the Chinese soccer system, pushing for more schools to field soccer programs, and pumping bigger investments into developing soccer in China into a more respectable state. We won't know how this works out until some years down the line.

In the case of basketball, I would definitely not call Chinese basketball "horrible," and I'm also uncertain about the amount of participation in the sport in China being "huge." Although the Chinese Basketball Association reports that there are 300 million people playing basketball in China, I would reckon that only a small fraction of this 300 million actually plays the sport in any serious manner (in East Asian cultures, school and work typically takes up most of your time, to a much greater extent than it does in the West). Also, while Chinese basketball is certainly far from the level of say, basketball in America or many parts of Europe, it is certainly not as awful as you seem to be making it out to be. China currently ranks 14th in the FIBA rankings and outright dominates FIBA Asia. Sure, FIBA Asia isn't exactly rigorous competition, but you almost seem to be making the case that Chinese basketball is the joke of the world or something. For comparison, Latvia's IIHF ranking is 10th. In addition, Chinese national teams have faced off against American national teams in basketball in recent times. Although the American teams were obviously much more dominant, it isn't as if the American teams beat the Chinese teams by a thousand points every time or something. I've seen some people here and there making the case that South Korea has one of the better teams in ice hockey in Asia (though it isn't exactly a high bar) and as such, they're definitely worthy of praise and should be allowed to participate in the upcoming Winter Olympics. If this South Korean team who isn't even ranked first in Asia (a very weak region for hockey) is worthy of praise, then how does that make the Chinese basketball team, who is by far the most dominant team in Asian basketball, a complete joke? Sure, China has quite a ways to go to reach their potential in basketball, but I wouldn't go so far as to call Chinese basketball absolute garbage.

As I briefly touched upon earlier, in the context of history and culture, China has for the longest time (dating back to at least the creation of imperial examinations during the Han Dynasty) been largely focused on academics and schooling (a quality that has likewise spread to other nations in the Sinosphere). This could have a possible negative effect on the development of athletics in China, but in an ideal case, due to the sheer population size of China, there will likely always be a decent amount of people who may at the end of the day just feel like being athletes instead, regardless of what their parents or societal norms tell them to do. I think, however, three things need to improve before we get to this level: socioeconomic levels need to catch up such that the middle class is a much more sizable portion of the population in turn allowing households to have enough income to take some risks career-wise, developmental systems need to improve to be able to more effectively allow athletes to find and work toward reaching their potentials, and corruption needs to be more widely rooted out. Obviously, corruption will ALWAYS exist in every country to some degree, no matter how hard you work at getting rid of it, but I feel like these three goals can more or less be achieved with time.

I also disagree with any possible notions I've seen in other threads in the past that, somehow, Chinese people are inherently unable to work with each other, and that this is the reason for the poor record of Chinese team sports. I find this to be a completely ignorant view and challenge whoever might think this to look at things like doubles badminton and eSports. Although doubles badminton may not be as team-heavy as actual team-based sports such as hockey, soccer, and basketball, doubles badminton still requires a deep level of synergy with your partner and knowledge of partner-based strategies. And yet, China is absolutely dominant in Olympic doubles badminton, often besting countries such as South Korea, Denmark, and Japan. Although eSports obviously lack much of the physical elements of common team-based sports, anyone who has been involved in eSports or even played online team-based games competitively can tell you that teamwork, strategy, and coordination is absolutely vital to success in eSports. Yet, for many years (until a recent slump), China has dominated one of the biggest games in eSports: Dota 2.

Now, does any of this mean I believe China can field a passable ice hockey team in 2022? I don't know, but I'm leaning toward no, barring a miracle. As a Chinese, I have faith that China can definitely improve in hockey if the will is there, but I don't know if that will have a noticeable effect by 2022. I'd only like to challenge people who believe that hockey cannot succeed in China due to some perceived inherent inferiority of Chinese people. I've been lurking these boards for a while and it often seems that racism against people such as Russians (and whenever it comes up, Chinese) and Cold War-style xenophobia is largely ignored. I know better than to expect it to change, but I thought I'd make an account to at least fight back against some rather ignorant things I see, as I've been disappointed time and time again about people rarely getting called out for their BS.

You infer too much. Little of what you've said has to do with why China will not become decent at hockey within six years. The fact is that China has massive participation (number of registered players is not significant to me - China has millions of people who play each sport) and interest in two major team sports (basketball and soccer) and does not achieve anything close to what the numbers suggest they should. I do think that you touched on a cultural reason why that may be the case, but the reasons are beside the point. To significantly improve in hockey is very difficult, especially in a country with little interest or history with the sport (or similar sports). China's lack of success in other international team sports demonstrates just how difficult it would be to improve drastically in another international team sport in just six years.

If you think that this is some indictment of Chinese people, then once again... you are inferring things that aren't there.
 

waffletrouble

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Apr 13, 2016
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You infer too much. Little of what you've said has to do with why China will not become decent at hockey within six years. The fact is that China has massive participation (number of registered players is not significant to me - China has millions of people who play each sport) and interest in two major team sports (basketball and soccer) and does not achieve anything close to what the numbers suggest they should. I do think that you touched on a cultural reason why that may be the case, but the reasons are beside the point. To significantly improve in hockey is very difficult, especially in a country with little interest or history with the sport (or similar sports). China's lack of success in other international team sports demonstrates just how difficult it would be to improve drastically in another international team sport in just six years.

If you think that this is some indictment of Chinese people, then once again... you are inferring things that aren't there.
I apologize if I was reading too much into your comments. I see so much blatant anti-Chinese sentiment in western news and comments nowadays that it can sometimes be difficult to tell what is intended as an insult or not.

Like others I'm also doubtful that China can dramatically improve in hockey in six years, but looking beyond the Olympics, I think ultimately only time can tell what will happen. My personal belief is that if socioeconomic factors catch up, families will have more leisure time and spending money, which will allow more children to take sports seriously, possibly leading to improved development systems. I think in this scenario, it is entirely possible that Chinese team sports will do much better.

I think a likely reason for China excelling in individual sports but not as much in team sports is that team sports with large amounts of players require much better development systems with larger scale and more investment per person than team sports with lower amounts of players, partner based sports, and individual sports. For example, Chinese women's volleyball does quite decently, as well as Chinese doubles badminton which I mentioned earlier.
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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I apologize if I was reading too much into your comments. I see so much blatant anti-Chinese sentiment in western news and comments nowadays that it can sometimes be difficult to tell what is intended as an insult or not.

Like others I'm also doubtful that China can dramatically improve in hockey in six years, but looking beyond the Olympics, I think ultimately only time can tell what will happen. My personal belief is that if socioeconomic factors catch up, families will have more leisure time and spending money, which will allow more children to take sports seriously, possibly leading to improved development systems. I think in this scenario, it is entirely possible that Chinese team sports will do much better.

I think a likely reason for China excelling in individual sports but not as much in team sports is that team sports with large amounts of players require much better development systems with larger scale and more investment per person than team sports with lower amounts of players, partner based sports, and individual sports. For example, Chinese women's volleyball does quite decently, as well as Chinese doubles badminton which I mentioned earlier.

Yes, there isn't anything inherent that I'm aware of that prevents Chinese teams from doing well in team sports. In fact, without getting too deeply into it the culture would seem to indicate that Chinese teams should do well in these areas. The actual results right now aren't there though. I do think, at some point, that Chinese basketball is bound to improve significantly at some point soon-ish. There are just too many players for it not to. Hockey just doesn't have the interest though. I'm also a little doubtful that many parents would spend the money required to produce elite hockey players (basketball and soccer being much cheaper) and that many would even let their kids play such a physical (violent) sport... that's just speculation though.
 

LeafChief

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Mar 5, 2013
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China getting a KHL team might peak some interest.

Just the vast amount of people in that country would turn out some players if they pumped some resources into it.

It's definitely a LONG ways away but it would be SO good for the game if countries out that way started to pick up the sport and succeed.
 

kaiser matias

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Mar 22, 2004
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Actually just read an article that somewhat touches on this subject the other day:

China Joins Russia's Hockey League

As it notes, there are currently only 200 senior men's players in China, which is lower than such stalwarts as New Zealand, Mexico, or the United Arab Emirates (all who play in the World Championships, for the record). China also languishes in Division IIB (well IIA this year, but they got relegated), and played such top teams as Serbia, Spain, and Iceland this year (next year they'll play the likes of Israel and Turkey). The Chinese team in the Asia hockey league actually had the best average attendance in the league last year, at just over 1500 per game (actually better than the Danish league as a whole, for comparison), so people to watch (consider the ALIH averaged just 940 per game).

They have played semi-decent teams before, losing to France 10-0 in 2007, and Norway 25-1 in 2005 (their biggest loss ever). These are teams that could lose to Canada by double digits in an Olympic tournament, so consider how China would do. And then consider that the players signed by Red Star, the ethnic Chinese ones, are either mainland Chinese (who already play for the national team and thus aren't going to improve it), or North Americans, of which they aren't great (Zach Yuen has been mentioned; he's been in the ECHL the past 3 years).

Also consider that South Korea has done a similar thing the past few years, even signing non-ethnic Koreans to their team; of the five who played this year, only one had any NHL experience, and that was with the 2006-07 Oilers during a March-April call-up (so not great). Even then Korea is barely surviving against Division IA teams. But their best hope for the Olympics is to not be too embarrassed, though considering they will play Canada for sure (plus the Czech Republic and Switzerland), it won't look good for them.

What that all means is that China can, and likely will nationalise a bunch of players for 2022, but the results are still going to be bad; their best hope is instead that this spurs development in the country, and maybe some wealthy Chinese individual takes a liking to the sport and becomes a benefactor of a team, much like a Russian oligarch or Arab prince in English soccer. They can't think short term, but need to look decades ahead for any serious positive of Chinese hockey, but it can be possible if they put in the effort.
 

namttebih

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Dec 11, 2010
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He would need to play two seasons in China first.

Is that the case even if his parents have Chinese passports (I don't know if they do or not) and he has never represented Canada?

I thought that the two seasons in China stipulation was for someone with no ties to the country.
 

TomB

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Jul 20, 2016
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Is that the case even if his parents have Chinese passports (I don't know if they do or not) and he has never represented Canada?

I thought that the two seasons in China stipulation was for someone with no ties to the country.

The two seasons stipulation is for anyone with dual citizenship, regardless of how they got it. Assuming that Pu has both Canadian and Chinese citizenship, he would have to play two consecutive seasons for a Chinese club in order to be eligible to play for China.
 

Milos Krasic

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It's plausible. Pu could try his luck in the AHL, fail to establish an NHL spot, sign with Red Star and be ready for 2022.
 

Booster*

Registered User
Jan 10, 2016
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They certainly could make some purchases for a fair amount...

I could see their starting line-up be like:



Goalie: Young unknow wonder kid/government robot
(Never takes of his helmet)


D´s Karlsson Provorov


F´s Eichel McDavid Laine



Just give them government-funded KHL contracts from next season giving them 200* their NHL salary. Then wait a few years for the citizenship. :)



Win for hockey! :handclap:
 

kaiser matias

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The two seasons stipulation is for anyone with dual citizenship, regardless of how they got it. Assuming that Pu has both Canadian and Chinese citizenship, he would have to play two consecutive seasons for a Chinese club in order to be eligible to play for China.

The two season requirement is for everyone, not just dual citizens. It exists so national teams can, in theory, reflect the development of the countries programs, though obviously that isn't the case for some countries. It's rules like this that prevent someone like Wojtek Wolski from playing for Poland, even though he was born there; some disagree with it but I actually feel it should be more stringent.
 

TomB

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Jul 20, 2016
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The two season requirement is for everyone, not just dual citizens. It exists so national teams can, in theory, reflect the development of the countries programs, though obviously that isn't the case for some countries. It's rules like this that prevent someone like Wojtek Wolski from playing for Poland, even though he was born there; some disagree with it but I actually feel it should be more stringent.

I don't think this is true for players carrying only one citizenship. This is why Olaf Kolzig was able to play for Germany despite never having played there.

I do agree that the eligibility requirements should be more stringent, though.
 

JoeCool16

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Sep 9, 2011
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You're right, it's not for everyone. Just people with dual citizenship. This is the process, according to the IIHF website:

Anyone who wants to play for another country has to become a citizen of that country too. I'm sure most countries will be only too happy to give citizenship to athletes willing to play for them, but some countries do have rather strict policies when it comes to citizenship.

So it'd be two years playing for either China Dragon in the AIHL or the Red Stars in the KHL, plus gaining citizenship. If you've played for Canada, USA etc before, then it's apparently 4 years, and you can never play for your original country's national team again.

Wolski is Canadian/Polish and played for Canada nationally. If he joins a Polish hockey team and plays for them for four years without break, then he could represent Poland. He's still youngish too, so he could make that happen, if he really wanted to!
 

Jerkini

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Wouldn't players have to "give up" their country of birth's citizenship to pick up a Chinese passport? Sounds incredibly risky.
 

kaiser matias

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Mar 22, 2004
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I don't think this is true for players carrying only one citizenship. This is why Olaf Kolzig was able to play for Germany despite never having played there.

I do agree that the eligibility requirements should be more stringent, though.

The rules aren't clear, but the IIHF does require the player to have spent two years in their country, even if they haven't changed citizenship. That's why Wojtek Wolski isn't on the Polish team; he has never played for Canada at any tournament, but since he's never played in Poland he can't represent them, unless he wants to commit two years in the Polish league (he did spend time there during the 2012 lockout though).

However, exceptions have been made. In the case of Kolzig, since he did not have Canadian citizenship (only German), he was allowed to represent Germany, despite not having played, or even lived, there, as he would not be allowed to play internationally otherwise.

A similar case occurred with Liam Stewart: though raised in the US, he was born in the UK, since his father (Rod Stewart) is British while his mother (Rachel Hunter) is a New Zealander. Since he wasn't an American, he couldn't play for them, and growing up in the US with his mother he obviously never played two years in either the UK or New Zealand. Again, since the alternative was to deprive him of playing internationally, the IIHF decided that despite not fulfilling the criteria, they decided to let him represent Great Britain (and he's signed to play in the UK this year, so if he stays another year it will be formally resolved anyways).
 

Treb

Global Flanderator
May 31, 2011
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They certainly could make some purchases for a fair amount...

I could see their starting line-up be like:



Goalie: Young unknow wonder kid/government robot
(Never takes of his helmet)


D´s Karlsson Provorov


F´s Eichel McDavid Laine



Just give them government-funded KHL contracts from next season giving them 200* their NHL salary. Then wait a few years for the citizenship. :)



Win for hockey! :handclap:

If you have infinite money, why the hell did you choose Eichel, Laine and Provorov (and to a lesser extent McDavid) ? :laugh:
 

TomB

Registered User
Jul 20, 2016
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The rules aren't clear, but the IIHF does require the player to have spent two years in their country, even if they haven't changed citizenship. That's why Wojtek Wolski isn't on the Polish team; he has never played for Canada at any tournament, but since he's never played in Poland he can't represent them, unless he wants to commit two years in the Polish league (he did spend time there during the 2012 lockout though).

However, exceptions have been made. In the case of Kolzig, since he did not have Canadian citizenship (only German), he was allowed to represent Germany, despite not having played, or even lived, there, as he would not be allowed to play internationally otherwise.

The IIHF Statutes and Bylaws disagree. Under Bylaws, 404, Sections 1.6 and 1.7 (page 52 on their online pdf), it is clear that the two-year rule only applies to players with multiple citizenship. Wolski does not qualify for Poland on account of Section 1.7. This section states that a player with multiple citizenships must "prove that he has participated on a consistent basis, for at least two consecutive hockey seasons and 16 consecutive months (480 days) after his 10th birthday in the national competitions of and having resided in the country that he wishes to represent
during which period he has neither transferred to another country nor played ice hockey for a team registered/located within any other country".

Since Wolski is a dual-citizen, he does not qualify for Poland on account of this rule. If he had never acquired Canadian citizenship, he would be free and clear to play for Poland.

I think we are maybe getting a little bit off-topic now, though. As interesting as I find this stuff, I think that this is maybe not the place for it.
 

Uncle Rotter

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They have played semi-decent teams before, losing to France 10-0 in 2007, and Norway 25-1 in 2005 (their biggest loss ever).

It isn't just that they're bad now. They're a lot worse than they used to be. In 1982 they beat the Netherlands by 5 goals (after they were in the A pool the previous year), tied Switzerland and beat Norway. In 1981 they beat Denmark by 4, France by 7 and Britain by 10.
http://www.nationalteamsoficehockey.com/users/myteam35954/Media1822.pdf
 

Cane mutiny

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Sep 5, 2006
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[mod]

I think naturally the team will have a lot of Canadian-Chinese or American-Chinese players on it but players who are ethnically Chinese I hope. The goal in all sports is to have a team built of "freak" athletes. Hockey being a niche sport tends to have less freak athletes, and scientifically speaking different ethnicities are shown to have varying amounts of fast twitch muscles and different bone structures which does inherently affect how many freaks one country can generate. It will be a long time, much longer than 8 years before the Su Bingtian's, the Hui Ruoqi's, the Mao Yi's, or the Tian Houwei's of the world come to hockey, so I don't see the 2022 team being great or exceptionally competitive, but they'll probably be a low D1B team by then.

I was just reading about the Chinese naturalization process, and there are very few people who would qualify. An American or Canadian-Chinese would not qualify. I think the iihf rules for qualification should be the same. Would not be fair to be able to use players who do not qualify for actual citizenship in reality.
 

baronsforever

Registered User
May 20, 2014
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Aside from roster limitations the more important question is: will they be included in the tournament. South Korea was not given a free pass unless they could meet certain standards, they failed. The federation believed that they would have to qualify their way in and then in September 2014 the IIHF changed their mind. http://www.iihf.com/home-of-hockey/...]=9122&cHash=2c97e4185e1bbeb22d592cba80b33af4 It is a myth that the host gets a free entry into the Olympics, it is up to the particular sport's governing body

Another link about the Korean process, and the IIHF's position (which changed) http://www.iihf.com/home-of-hockey/...]=9081&cHash=d1bb0444e2e9221b84e6bb85acf95ced
 
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