How to get useless plugs/goons out of the NHL

[ODAAT]

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Detroit and Hawks were not playing in the east.

Bruins don't have goons, but they have in their line up first liners, and fourth liners that can play hockey and be extremely tough. Nobody except exceptions can go thru the Bruins toughness with the Bruins with players playing 30 minutes (Chara) 18 minutes (Lucic) 10-12 minutes (Thornton) and 15 minutes of McQuaid. Ask the Nuck's. Aswer is bring in goons! Fleyrs had Hartnell type of players. Sens - Neil. Playing in the east might bring another evaluation to the Wings as the year goes on.

Playing in the East means nothing, the Wings play in the East now, did they go out and sign a goon because of it?? Did the Jackets?? Bottom line is, the Hawks/Wings and Bruins have proven, having a goon as part of your lineup equates to jack all when it comes to winning.

Come playoff time, if you can`t play, you ain`t dressing, the elimination of the pure goon is coming....some can`t see it

 

[DominicT]

Playing in the East means nothing, the Wings play in the East now, did they go out and sign a goon because of it?? Did the Jackets?? Bottom line is, the Hawks/Wings and Bruins have proven, having a goon as part of your lineup equates to jack all when it comes to winning.

Come playoff time, if you can`t play, you ain`t dressing, the elimination of the pure goon is coming....some can`t see it

Are Hartnell and Neil goons? Just asking

 

[ODAAT]

Are Hartnell and Neil goons? Just asking

Not for me Dom, they can actually play

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

Playing in the East means nothing, the Wings play in the East now, did they go out and sign a goon because of it?? Did the Jackets?? Bottom line is, the Hawks/Wings and Bruins have proven, having a goon as part of your lineup equates to jack all when it comes to winning.

Come playoff time, if you can`t play, you ain`t dressing, the elimination of the pure goon is coming....some can`t see it

--
You're right. But Lucic type of players is almost impossible to find. And the guy is just incredibly intimidating on the ice. Chara is alone in his world. Bruins are unique in their type. We cheer for them, we forget how they were an intimidating team. I'm not saying bring on the goons, I disagree with Scott type of players in line ups. I just say, teams try to answer the Lucic hit on Miller! How answer, if no Lucic, Chara type of players are unavailable! Scott comes in the equation.

ODAAT, you might also be true with the Wiings. But let's wait at the end of the year to evaluate what the Wings will do. Laracque was signed almost only for Lucic if you remember. MTL tried without toughness and changed in the last two seasons. Jackets do have gritty players and we will see thru the years if now that they are competitive how things will go.

As for the playoff, you're right. But it is a long way till there. You have to enter the playoff with health.

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

Are Hartnell and Neil goons? Just asking

 

[TCL40]

Are Hartnell and Neil goons? Just asking

Hartnell doesn't fight he is a very solid power forward/agitator type. I like Hartnell-I hate him when we play him but he can play hockey.

Neil is a very good player-he hits well and he is effective.

Detroit doesn't have goons but they have some agitator guys and guys willing to fight even if the Wings don't fight.

I am not a fan of staged fights. I hate the role of guy who is there solely to fight.

Thornton is at least able to skate regular shifts and puts up points. His hitting technique kind of sucks but he doesn't hurt the team. I think his days are numbered and I hope his replacement is a younger version of what he is-a guy who will fight and agitate but who can skate and produce.

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

Not for me Dom, they can actually play

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Who said Hartnell and Neil are goon. They are Lucic and Thornton type of players. They are rare. And they play in the East.

 

[bruinsfan001]

I think they should set an ice time minimum for every player on the ice. That would force coaches to decide whether its really worth having x player in a given game if they can't actually play the game.

 

[TCL40]

I think they should set an ice time minimum for every player on the ice. That would force coaches to decide whether its really worth having x player in a given game if they can't actually play the game.

This might be hard though in a game with a lot of penalties. On a good night Thornton will skate about 10 minutes. But in a game with both rams marching to the box he might only get about 4.

Maybee there should be an even strength minimum as a propel portion.

Not sure.

But 2min a night plugs shouldn't be taking out top 6 players with head shots.

 

[ODAAT]

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You're right. But Lucic type of players is almost impossible to find. And the guy is just incredibly intimidating on the ice. Chara is alone in his world. Bruins are unique in their type. We cheer for them, we forget how they were an intimidating team. I'm not saying bring on the goons, I disagree with Scott type of players in line ups. I just say, teams try to answer the Lucic hit on Miller! How answer, if no Lucic, Chara type of players are unavailable! Scott comes in the equation.

ODAAT, you might also be true with the Wiings. But let's wait at the end of the year to evaluate what the Wings will do. Laracque was signed almost only for Lucic if you remember. MTL tried without toughness and changed in the last two seasons. Jackets do have gritty players and we will see thru the years if now that they are competitive how things will go.

As for the playoff, you're right. But it is a long way till there. You have to enter the playoff with health.

Wings arguably played in what I view as a much heavier and tougher Conference in the West. East is more free flowing, West is an absolute war. Now, they haven`t won it all in a while, but are still a fantastic team.

The biggest mistake opponents made was viewing the B`s as a team with goons, so they went out, signed the Scott`s/McLaren`s of the league to combat that, not for one minute realizing that the B`s 4th line, yes, even Thornton, from time to time have been asked to close a game out playing in the final minutes, you want Scott/Orr`s/McLaren`s/Prusts and Parros of the world doing that??

Man, the Canucks went out and traded for Kassian in response to being slapped around by our boys....my question is

How`s that workin for them all??

 

[ODAAT]

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Who said Hartnell and Neil are goon. They are Lucic and Thornton type of players. They are rare. And they play in the East.

Not sure anyone did, your losing me here

My opinion, no team, and I mean no team needs a goon to win and we have watched a slow exit of the pure goon and I`m happy about it

Love the fisticuffs/tough game, love the skill game, but I love guys who are capable of playing both at the same time rather than those who bring zero to the rink

 

[ODAAT]

Hartnell doesn't fight he is a very solid power forward/agitator type. I like Hartnell-I hate him when we play him but he can play hockey.

Neil is a very good player-he hits well and he is effective.

Detroit doesn't have goons but they have some agitator guys and guys willing to fight even if the Wings don't fight.

I am not a fan of staged fights. I hate the role of guy who is there solely to fight.

Thornton is at least able to skate regular shifts and puts up points. His hitting technique kind of sucks but he doesn't hurt the team. I think his days are numbered and I hope his replacement is a younger version of what he is-a guy who will fight and agitate but who can skate and produce.

oh no
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...&mid=6EE403D3C0C15B3EF1D46EE403D3C0C15B3EF1D4

he doesn`t drop them a ton but....

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

Wings arguably played in what I view as a much heavier and tougher Conference in the West. East is more free flowing, West is an absolute war. Now, they haven`t won it all in a while, but are still a fantastic team.

The biggest mistake opponents made was viewing the B`s as a team with goons, so they went out, signed the Scott`s/McLaren`s of the leauge to combat that, not for one minute realizing that the B`s 4th line, yes, even Thornton, from time to time have been asked to close a game out playing in the final minutes, you want Scott/Orr`s/McLaren`s/Prusts and Parros of the world doing that??

Man, the Canucks went out and traded for Kassian in response to being slapped around by our boys....my question is

How`s that workin for them all??

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ODAAT, I'm not saying it works. I'm saying teams try to find a solution. I do not believe it will work, I'm saying teams do believe it might work.

I can see Prust in the same role as Thornton. I do prefer Thornton that said. Read all my post, Thornton is for me part of the Bruins ingredients success.

My POV is that I do believe that the Bruins and at some extent, the Flyers and Sens, forced opponents in the east to make changes. Toronto came in, Sabres to and now MTl ect..

Does it work.. Up to now NO. Do I agree with the changes : NO. I also hope Detroit will stick to their style and not engage the same changes I believe they might do. And I also hope that CBA and the NHL will find the proper actions to remove the John Scott type of players out of the game.

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

Not sure anyone did, your losing me here

My opinion, no team, and I mean no team needs a goon to win and we have watched a slow exit of the pure goon and I`m happy about it

Love the fisticuffs/tough game, love the skill game, but I love guys who are capable of playing both at the same time rather than those who bring zero to the rink

--
I do like the same.
and I agree.

 

[earthstar1]

On top of suspensions, perhaps teams could face the penalty of being unable to fill suspended players spots in the line up, making it an actual detriment to their team as well. Not to single any team out, but as an example, Buffalo would have to dress two less skaters at the moment.

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

On top of suspensions, perhaps teams could face the penalty of being unable to fill suspended players spots in the line up, making it an actual detriment to their team as well. Not to single any team out, but as an example, Buffalo would have to dress two less skaters at the moment.

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I kind of understand your point. On the other hand, Loui Eriksson and the Bruins don't care for Buffalo problems!

Accountability needs to be answering Scott type of hit. I disagree with pulling out a player that did nothing but I'm all in the sanction the team that dresses players who lack's control - are dangerous or brings nothing to the game.

 

[ODAAT]

On top of suspensions, perhaps teams could face the penalty of being unable to fill suspended players spots in the line up, making it an actual detriment to their team as well. Not to single any team out, but as an example, Buffalo would have to dress two less skaters at the moment.

based solely on the standings, one could say that`s what they`ve been doing since game 1 of this year

 

[ODAAT]

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ODAAT, I'm not saying it works. I'm saying teams try to find a solution. I do not believe it will work, I'm saying teams do believe it might work.

I can see Prust in the same role as Thornton. I do prefer Thornton that said. Read all my post, Thornton is for me part of the Bruins ingredients success.

My POV is that I do believe that the Bruins and at some extent, the Flyers and Sens, forced opponents in the east to make changes. Toronto came in, Sabres to and now MTl ect..

Does it work.. Up to now NO. Do I agree with the changes : NO. I also hope Detroit will stick to their style and not engage the same changes I believe they might do. And I also hope that CBA and the NHL will find the proper actions to remove the John Scott type of players out of the game.

I pop over to other teams boards a lot, never comment because I just don`t feel it necessary, and for the many years I have read the Wings fans speak of their team, outside of the rare few, seldom do I, or have I read from fans of the Wings about a necessity for more toughness ala goon or otherwise. They added Tootoo but he`s hardly a goon, he`ll go but...

As the game changes, and with a cap, so to does the way teams must handle personnel. I think that the Leafs with an Orr/McLaren/Frazer on the back have addressed a toughness shortage however, outside of Frazer who is a pretty steady stay at home D-man, how effective or how much impact would an Orr/McLaren really have if they were to make a long march in the playoffs??

McLaren/Frazer have missed much of the start of this year so far for the Leafs, really only Orr in the lineup who`ll drop em, hasn`t really hurt their record so far...and Orr hasn`t dropped the mitts since the Parros incident

 

[Shoebottom]

Playing in the East means nothing, the Wings play in the East now, did they go out and sign a goon because of it?? Did the Jackets?? Bottom line is, the Hawks/Wings and Bruins have proven, having a goon as part of your lineup equates to jack all when it comes to winning.

Come playoff time, if you can`t play, you ain`t dressing, the elimination of the pure goon is coming....some can`t see it

Its about making the long regular season as smooth as possible for your players. You want to be as healthy as possible entering the playoffs. And getting a goon to take care of that aspect of the game makes it much smoother for the rest of the team. With all due respect, if Thornton wasn't a goon, he wouldn't be on our 4th line right now. There are better players out there who could do a better job on the 4th line. And watch Detroit go get a goon pretty soon. And yeah, goons are pretty much useless in the playoffs, but they make the regular season go much smoother.

 

[VanIsle]

One of the guys on the TSN or Sportsnet panel had an interesting take. Each team is allowed 2 suspensions per year and then after that the next suspension costs the team a point if they have another one it costs them 2 points.

I thought it was a good idea where teams are actually penalized where the player is fined, suspended, and the team loses out on ever valuable points.

The game is so fast now a days that even if goons are taken out of the game there will still be head shots and late hits.

 

[Cid]

Take out the staged fight.

If the refs deem the fight was staged or premeditated both players are kicked out of the game, given majors, and play is reviewed and looked at for suspension. Repeat offenders get longer suspensions.

If a fight during a game breaks out from a hockey play that happened, like Iggy's fights this year, like Lucic's fight in pre season, those are deemed part of hockey and a 5 minute major will do.

Since tools like John Scott skate around the for 5 minutes a game asking guys to fight, they then have no place in the game.

 

[Cid]

This will put way too much power in Shanahan's hands. Imagine the outcry if team a) gets a 3rd suspension and loses a point and misses the playoffs when team b) didn't get the suspension for a similar play because Shanny said it was a first time offender or in his opinion it wasn't an attempt to injure, and this team then makes the playoffs.

You can fine, you can suspend, but you can't subtract points.

One of the guys on the TSN or Sportsnet panel had an interesting take. Each team is allowed 2 suspensions per year and then after that the next suspension costs the team a point if they have another one it costs them 2 points.

I thought it was a good idea where teams are actually penalized where the player is fined, suspended, and the team loses out on ever valuable points.

The game is so fast now a days that even if goons are taken out of the game there will still be head shots and late hits.

 

[VanIsle]

This will put way too much power in Shanahan's hands. Imagine the outcry if team a) gets a 3rd suspension and loses a point and misses the playoffs when team b) didn't get the suspension for a similar play because Shanny said it was a first time offender or in his opinion it wasn't an attempt to injure, and this team then makes the playoffs.

You can fine, you can suspend, but you can't subtract points.

Let him have some power, maybe this will be the final straw that will make teams think more and more about being cheap.

They are fining ad suspending, and this year there has been more suspensions than ever this early in the season, the message is clearly not getting across.

Or my theory is that they be more like the NFL.

Instead of giving these piddly 2-5 game suspensions, give them 20-40 games, because the 2-5 games are nice breaks, while the 20-40 is 25-50% of yearly pay, hit the players where it really hurts.

Until the owners/GMs don't employ goons and one dimensional players they are going to continue to be in the game and fans can't do anything about it until the higher powers finally see that they are wasting $s and a roster spot.

 

[Cid]

I agree something has to be done. Sadly the sport has evolved. Equipment has evolved. Athletes are so much stronger now from proper diets, advances in exercise and exercise technology and supplementation.

Fact of the matter is, the game is TOO fast and the bodies are too big and strong. When it's a mater of split seconds between a clean hit and a suspendable infraction, the player isn't always going to be able to stop. This trend will continue no matter what.

There are 2 options. One will ruin the game and one will cost owners and arm and a leg.

1. Eliminate body contact.

2. GO TO EUROPEAN SIZE ICE SURFACES. This is the only way in my opinion. The bigger the rink, the more skill and speed is needed. This will help eliminate the "goons" and cheap shot artists and give the skilled players more ice to work with, more room to move and more time to get out of the way against threatening hits. Olympics and world championships on European ice surfaces see a lot more skill and talent and a lot less goonery that we see in the NHL. AS our sport has evolved, especially the players, so must the ice surface.

That's my 2 cents.

Let him have some power, maybe this will be the final straw that will make teams think more and more about being cheap.

They are fining ad suspending, and this year there has been more suspensions than ever this early in the season, the message is clearly not getting across.

Or my theory is that they be more like the NFL.

Instead of giving these piddly 2-5 game suspensions, give them 20-40 games, because the 2-5 games are nice breaks, while the 20-40 is 25-50% of yearly pay, hit the players where it really hurts.

Until the owners/GMs don't employ goons and one dimensional players they are going to continue to be in the game and fans can't do anything about it until the higher powers finally see that they are wasting $s and a roster spot.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

had some time to think about this and refine my thoughts a bit... what i come down to is that most 'real' hockey fans do want some fighting left in the game both for entertainment and also to control dirty play. what we dont like is how teams employ a player that does nothing but fight. this isnt boxing/mma we are watching.

in the past... 1980's and before... there was always guys like gordie howe or cam neely or larry robinson or clark gillies that could fight when a fight was needed. these guys did fight because there wasnt any john scott or george laraque around who was such a useless player that the 'trade off' of the penalties would penalize your own team too much.

fans actually love a battle between players like jarome iginla and joe thornton or scott stevens and eric lindros. we talk about these types of fights for a decade after they happen.

so a solution to this problem cant elliminate all fighting but it must be targeted to get rid of 'goons.'

the obvious solution is that somehow there has to be two different catagories of fights... one that is 'ok' and one that isnt ok. superstar players pretty much never instigate fights... almost never stage fights. its the fights that are stages that bother most people or the fights that are instigated to 'send a message' or to 'change momentum.'

fights that arise during game play dont bother most of us. when we see a john scott cheap shot our player, most of us want someone to grab him and make him pay.

so i think that there needs to be two penalties for fights... when someone like mcquaid goes with someone like scott during the heat of the moment the two guys should only be penalized a 5 min 'cooling down' penalty like happens now. Get rid of the current instigator penalty. Scott deserved a beat down and so do guys like kaleta or cooke or torres or even marchand if they all continue to play 'dirty.'

a new penalty system needs to be applied to what we will call catagory 2 fights. an example of catagory 2 fights is when someone like john scott steps onto the ice after a play and says he needs to beat someone up to keep his job... so he goes after phil kessel. or guys like tie domi and bob probert tell everyone they are going to fight weeks before the game even is played.... or even when our own shawn thornton goes after someone 5 mins later after a questionable play. Unless a fight is happening immediately at the time of the transgression, it wont count as a catagory 1 fight and will be subject to harsh penalization.

there is NO NEED for any catagory 2 fights and thus it is ok to throw the book at anyone that commits a catagory 2 fight. penalties can still be weighted to hit goons heavier.

i propose the following penalties for catagory 2 fights...

for a player that averages more than 12 mins a game for a forward or more than 15 mins a game for a dman the first catagory 1 fight of the year can result in being kicked out of the game they are playing and they get a 1 game suspension after... for the second time they commit a catagory 2 fight they lose 5 games. and the third time they do it they are gone for 10 games. If they do it a fourth time they are gone for the remainder of the season.

i mean... honestly... how many times is it necessary in a season to have a catagory 2 fight? make the penalties severe enough and guys will find a way to resist the urge to fight.

for guys that dont average enough playing time, their first catagory 2 fight can result in a 1 game penalty too. After all, needing to fight once might happen. If the guy has a 2nd fight then i suggest he is banned for the remainder of the season and the team is fined a million dollars that is donated to some concusion research fund.

i think most people want to stop guys like shawn thornton and john scott from having some meaingless fight next time buffalo/boston plays but we would love to see a lucic/kaleta fight or a chara/myers fight maybe.

i remember the oreilly/clark gillies fight and even though gillies won that fight and alot of people credit it with tilting the series for the islanders... it was still a great moment in hockey with two of the games best players battling for their team's respect in a tough meaningful playoff series.

obviously my solution is very harsh against guys like shawn thornton and john scott and i know that shawn thornton plays good for a goon so some of his fans will be upset at me... but honestly think about this. if guys like shawn thornton have a job then guys like lucic and chara and iginla wont be able to fight. we cant afford to have these guys fighting when some goon will be in their face as a result.

Guys like Oreilly and Cashman and Milbury and even Johnathon and Wensink who were some of our favorite 'tough' fighters of my youth would never have been able to fight the way they did if there was a Booguard or a Scott or some other meat head on the other bench. Today's players like Stewart and Backes in St Louis and the Staal brothers in Carolina could be amazing 'tough guys' if the playing field was cleared. There would still be fights that we all would love to see... but the fights would arise from the natural flow of the game and would be between hockey players... not 2 clown/goons embarrassing us all.