How to get useless plugs/goons out of the NHL

cat400

Registered User
Jul 30, 2005
7,156
2,279
Reduce the rosters by 1 or 2 players and you will see the end of the GOON in hockey.

You will still have your John Ferguson / Milan Lucic type player who are quite efficient but fearsome players.

Fights initiated by a cheap hit or dirty play are inevitable in a contact sport and will never be completely eliminated in fact they are what makes hockey an awesome event to watch live; however they should result in an ejection from the game.

The farce of the GOON fights was on full display in the recent Oilers / Habs game where the officials quickly stopped a potential fight due to the players removing their helmets. Vince McMahon of the WWE couldn't have choreographed the scene any better.
 

ODAAT

Registered User
Oct 17, 2006
52,238
20,410
Victoria BC
I don't know the logistics of it all, but I think there has to be a solution out there where players are suspended for 10 games per fight if their average ice time-per-game is not over 10 minutes (your average, average player).

This means that players like Iggy, Lucic, McQuaid (just examples on Boston) are not effected by the new rule at all, but talentless 4th line plugs are completely run out of the league.

This would be easy to implement. We are seeing all kinds of rules out there right now to try and limit fighting in an attempt to hurt the goons. We don't need to limit fighting, we need to limit it to players who can fight and not UFC level players like Scott (these are the guys who will kill someone one day).

Thoughts?
Is there a better solution?

When GM`s finally recognize that to eat up valuable cap space for toolboxes who can`t play is a poor business model, this discussion is done, until then....
 

patty59

***************
Apr 6, 2008
18,632
1,018
Lethbridge, Alberta
I think hefty fines to the club is the only way to go. You have a guy like scott on your team and you pay him 600K or whatever it is, but when he pulls this crap you have to dish out another 100k each time, that gets old and teams will stop doing it. You could even make those fines count against the cap the following year.

But with fines, you have to make them count, just like with suspensions. 1-2 game suspensions don't slove anything, just like a 5K fine is peanuts.
 

GloryDaze4877

Barely Irrelevant
Jun 27, 2006
44,395
13,873
The Sticks (West MA)
I think hefty fines to the club is the only way to go. You have a guy like scott on your team and you pay him 600K or whatever it is, but when he pulls this crap you have to dish out another 100k each time, that gets old and teams will stop doing it. You could even make those fines count against the cap the following year.

But with fines, you have to make them count, just like with suspensions. 1-2 game suspensions don't slove anything, just like a 5K fine is peanuts.

This is a great idea. In addition to suspensions, levy heavy fines that count against the Cap, and this problem goes away pretty quickly.
 

patty59

***************
Apr 6, 2008
18,632
1,018
Lethbridge, Alberta
The problem isn't fighting, it's dirty hits, for reason this conversation always turns around to getting rid of fighting.

Get those cheap hits out, that's the real problem.

The NHL is already trying to eliminate fighting with their new visor rule and you can't remove your helmet, even if you have a visor and the other guy doesn't.
 

Buckets and Gloves

klaatu barada nikto
Aug 14, 2011
7,578
175
There's been about a dozen suspensions this year so far, these chincy suspensions aren't working.

Like MLB (which officially became a joke with the appeal process) the NHL is afraid to bring the hammer down because guys will appeal (Kaleta)

Need double digit game suspensions
 

DaveFromNB

Registered User
Sep 6, 2008
2,337
383
Quispamsis, NB
Reduce the number of players a team can dress when a player is on suspension. Losing Scott for 10 games is a who cares thing, they just dress someone who is probably a better player, playing a man short on the roster is something quite different.
 

11MilesPerJohan

@BeingAHumanBean
Nov 8, 2011
2,028
0
McLean Hospital
Honestly the solution is more simple than that.

You hold coaches and GM's responsible for the players they choose to put on the ice.

Whatever fine Scott get's Rolston and the GM should get at least the same if not double.

When the Penguins were trotting the predator out on the ice, Bylsma, Shero, and yes Mario himself should have been forking tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars out of their own pockets everytime that monster attacked.

Until we hold the people responsible for putting these guys on the ice responsible for their actions, nothing will change

I completely agree with the bolded.

The NHL's tweaking of the rules, and Shanahan's doling out of frequent, and sometimes severe suspensions, have not curbed the incidents of illegal and dangerous hits. In fact, based on a stat they showed before the game last night on NBC, the number of suspensions seem to be up so far from last season. The players obviously have not gotten the message, and furthermore, they do not view the penalties as enough of a deterrent to keep them from committing these acts. I have to assume that at this point, players understand the rules in place, and if they break them, then they are doing so consciously. The tweaking of the rules, the transparency, and the harsher and more frequent penalties have done NOTHING. If it's not working, then fix it.

I think you're right that the NHL must start to hold the teams responsible for the players that they employ and dress on the ice. Apparently players are willing to take the occasional fines and suspensions that come with making an illegal hit. Moreover, owners keep paying these players, GMs keep signing them to contracts, and coaches keep putting them on the ice. So what is the message there? "Well, we saw that you have several questionable hits on your resume...how about you take this money and come do that for us." Teams and players are obviously willing to put up with these slap-on-the-wrist penalties in order to have these players on their teams, so they must feel that these players are worth having around. Matt Cooke found another job this offseason. Nobody said, "There's no way we can employ Cooke based on his track record of illegal hits." He got a contract. At least one team out there thought he could help them win games, and to hell with the occasional suspension he'll have to serve to do it.

I feel that these penalties should not only be levied on players, with suspensions and fines, but the NHL should begin to levy harsh punishments on the teams that continue to employ these players. If you took away the incentive for these teams to have these players, and made the punishments directly hurt their chances of winning as an organization, then I believe it would stop. Either Matt Cooke would have to clean up his act, or teams would have no choice but to no longer employ him. I'm not sure how it would work, but teams who employ habitual offenders should be subject to the loss of draft picks if said player continues to ply their trade as usual. Do you want to have Matt Cooke on your team? Well okay, but just know, next time he takes someone's head off, you're going to forfeit a 5th round draft pick, or whatever...and then after that, it's a 4th rounder, etc. I don't know if that is the exact solution, but there needs to be some punishment for the teams, and not just money because that doesn't mean jack to them.

On another note, the idea of getting the "goons" out of the league is all well and good, but I still don't think the issue the NHL having is fighting...it's the illegal hits to the head, etc. that are taking the biggest toll on player health. You can jettison Scott out of the league, but what about Matt Cooke or Steve Ott? Those guys aren't your traditional goons, but they inflict just as much if not more damage on a yearly basis. Those guys and guys like that wouldn't be weeded out by the 10 min a night rule, or by placing a limit on the number of fights you can have. If anything, not having to answer the bell would only embolden them, IMO.
 

Kaoz*

Guest
it starts with getting rid of fans who constantly insist on their team signing goons like Orr and McGrattan....oh wait

This is asinine.

You don't start anything by getting rid of fans. That suggestion sounds more like the whining of a jaded child then it does a legitimate suggestion. If someone is a fan of only one aspect of the game and you then remove that aspect they may leave willingly, but you can't start with getting rid of those fans. That makes zero sense.

And fans don't insist on anything in any meaningful way unless they stop paying attention to hockey, at which point they aren't really fans any longer.

Requiring players to achieve an agreed upon minimum threshold for ice time per game is one way to do it, though the logistics in doing so would get messy. A small example would be how some coaches like to shorten their bench in the 3rd period for instance, such a rule could dramatically affect this strategy.

The only real way to do it is to take away the benefit to the team. That requires harsher penalties on fighting and stricter discipline regarding physicality over all, or target those players specifically and have a different standard for them. Can't really see either way working. The only close to viable solution I've ever heard is to institute a 1 for 1 policy that threatens the players livelihood. Mandatory 5 game suspension if you injure someone with a predatory hit and then you continue to sit out games until that player comes back. Even that would get messy.

If we're going to go crazy with it though, take it a step further. Institute a policy that mandates any team with a player suspended for a predatory hit can only dress 19 players per game instead of 20, essentially losing a roster spot as a representation of that suspension. Can guarantee you Matt Cooke would have lost his job long ago if that were the case.
 
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Over the volcano

Registered User
Mar 10, 2006
34,259
18,635
Watertown
New Idea--> What if suspensions were handed out in minutes rather than games?

5 games for Scott is less lost icetime than a one game suspension for a guy like Chara.


Rather than giving him 5 games off, why not say he loses 100 min of ice time. They could then subtract the 5/min a night he's been getting every game.
 

Mynameismark*

Guest
I'm old school and I like Hockey the way it was meant to be. Stop allowing Buttman to ruin everything for the casual fan.

Let players police and enforce themselves. Be rid of the instigator.

Oh yeah, and if you are trying to run fighting out of the game, how about not promoting the game with all those clips and videos of fights and brawls like during those wednesday night "rivalry" telecasts. Bit hypocritical no?

But listen to the fans. After the home team scoring a goal, nothing gets the fans out of their seats more than two guys about to drop them. Whether they be goons or not.

This is hockey culture. Buttman you american basketball flake, you'd never understand.
 

ksp1957

Registered User
Apr 11, 2006
17,649
336
South Shore
I'm old school and I like Hockey the way it was meant to be. Stop allowing Buttman to ruin everything for the casual fan.

Let players police and enforce themselves. Be rid of the instigator.

Oh yeah, and if you are trying to run fighting out of the game, how about not promoting the game with all those clips and videos of fights and brawls like during those wednesday night "rivalry" telecasts. Bit hypocritical no?

But listen to the fans. After the home team scoring a goal, nothing gets the fans out of their seats more than two guys about to drop them. Whether they be goons or not.

This is hockey culture. Buttman you american basketball flake, you'd never understand.

I'm even more old school. When a tool like John Scott runs a player like Erickson, it's time to green light a star on the opposing team.

The Sabres ought to know. The previous coach did pretty much the same thing when Drury got run by Chris Neil.
 

northeastern

Registered User
Apr 16, 2009
10,222
2,054
boston
I like the losing a roster spot idea, that would suck for a team. I'd think if an incident is determined 'vicious' or 'intentional' the players suspension is minimum 15 games, with the team being fined some % of the injured players salary, and losing a roster spot for 1/2 of the games.

Things that are easily avoidable need to see an entirely different level of fines.

I also think players pim, ppg, toi, salary cap ect should be taken into account. If a cap minimum player averaging 5 min a game with 0 points and -15 takes our a top point leader the goon's team should be fined big bucks, or the coach either way.
 

ckyak

Journeymen rise up!
Feb 14, 2008
603
0
Nottingham, NH
Only problem with limiting the number is that once a good player like Lucic gets one below the limit, he'll be unmercilessly cheat shotted and goaded into taking that last fight to get him suspended.

As long as it's not done without mercy ... :sarcasm:
 

Pay Carl

punished “venom” krejci
Jun 23, 2011
13,094
3,192
Vermont
Honestly, thats not a bad idea at all. Of course the NHL will never implement it, but I really do like that idea
 

spokedB

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
576
1
western Maine
Iirc, Buffalo rearmed after Looch ran over the crazy little twit Miller :).

But - the best suggestions I've heard are to make the suspension without pay for as long as the victim is unable to play. If it's a career ender, that would do it for the goon. And to keep coaches from using knuckle draggers like Scott or Cooke to take out elite players, transfer the injured players cap hit to the offending team.

Neither will happen. The grand poobahs at league level would be horrified at the idea of touching their wallets.
 

ODAAT

Registered User
Oct 17, 2006
52,238
20,410
Victoria BC
Here`s an idea...don`t sign them to contracts. The Hawks/Wings haven`t really felt the necessity for a goon in their lineups and have done well. The B`s too, I don`t classify Thorty as a goon
 

BRUINS since 1995

Registered User
May 10, 2010
4,650
1,966
Au pays de la neige
Here`s an idea...don`t sign them to contracts. The Hawks/Wings haven`t really felt the necessity for a goon in their lineups and have done well. The B`s too, I don`t classify Thorty as a goon

-------
Detroit and Hawks were not playing in the east.

Bruins don't have goons, but they have in their line up first liners, and fourth liners that can play hockey and be extremely tough. Nobody except exceptions can go thru the Bruins toughness with the Bruins with players playing 30 minutes (Chara) 18 minutes (Lucic) 10-12 minutes (Thornton) and 15 minutes of McQuaid. Ask the Nuck's. Aswer is bring in goons! Fleyrs had Hartnell type of players. Sens - Neil. Playing in the east might bring another evaluation to the Wings as the year goes on.
 

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