How the Red Wings attempt to maintain a dynasty caused their demise

[ChrisReevesLegs]

I think people forget that UFA over the past 10 years has pretty much been a collection of average to above average vets. Guys like JT and Suter come around in UFA once in a blue moon. Heck, the year we signed Mike Green, I remember TSN ranked him as the #1 UFA that year.

Been missing you at LGW the past month or two...

Precisely. Whats his face is gonna respond with a bunch of Nielsen grade FAs. To which I will respond "they would have only prolonged and hurt us in the long run and delayed the inevitable". You cannot dig yourself out of a hole with FAs. That lesson should have been learned by Holland and all Wings fans by now. This is a drafting league. FAs are there for augmentation/adjusting/supplementing.

 

[kliq]

Spot on. You can almost filter it down to purely poor personnel assessment. Of both vets and rookies.

I think a lot of people will knee jerk and say it was the vets that really screwed us, because their contracts are still laboring us. But honestly I think the big killer was poor drafting. We did not draft a single competent Dman for 16 years after Kronwall. That fact is astonishing personally. The myth of superior Wings drafting was the biggest lie for a while.

Spot on! Thats what kept us afloat between 2002 and 2008. Had we not drafted Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Kronwall, Filppula, Hudler etc. we don't maintain our dynasty. If you look at our drafts between 2005 and 2011, outside of Tatar, Nyquist, Mrazek, and maybe Jensen (which is a stretch), we drafted nothing of real value

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

Spot on! Thats what kept us afloat between 2002 and 2008. Had we not drafted Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Kronwall, Filppula, Hudler etc. we don't maintain our dynasty. If you look at our drafts between 2005 and 2011, outside of Tatar, Nyquist, Mrazek, and maybe Jensen (which is a stretch), we drafted nothing of real value

Honestly the biggest change with Yzerman that no one will notice is the drafting. Seider is a good example of this. Holland and his cronies ideas of what young hockey players should look like were outdated. I remember reading something from a a former wing scout this summer (who was fired this summer) and his description of how he evaluates players was so contingent on size it was sickening. Basically, if he's big and has an ounce of talent I recommend him. I will forever be a fan of what Holland did for this organization, but his minions (and maybe himself) were no longer in touch with reality at the end there.

 

[Frk It]

I guess you could be upset we did not partake in tanking when tanking was actually somewhat viable, which it really no longer is. But at what cost would that have come? Getting rid of Datsyuk/Zetterberg early? f*** that.

With this new lottery system I think you will see more teams drag their feet on rebuilding. It’s not a good system and I can see teams thinking they are better on just holding onto their aging players and hoping they get some luck their way.

Unless they try to make a change with the lottery in the next CBA. Guess we’ll see. You are going to see some teams really get stalled out at the bottom with what they are going with.

 

[The Wizard of Oz]

At the end of the day it was injuries. Yeah bad trades, contracts, and free agent signings and goalie issues are all easy to complain about. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, and Franzen all beat up and injured regularly (not to mention randos like Cole and Weiss getting hurt immediately) the team isn’t going to go anywhere. Sometimes luck runs out. You can’t be the top of man games lost and be a cup contender.

 

[TheClap]

Poor drafting is obviously the biggest reason. Specifically, their inability to draft/develop a legitimate top pairing defensemen between Kronwall and Hronek, almost 15 years. Followed by the inabilty to find even a mediocre replacement for Lidstrom and Rafalski. Kronner was a solid top pairing guy, but he had zero help and broke down. Outside of him the best they did was Dan Dekeyser, who is a solid stay at home 2nd pair d-man, and Mike Green, who should was a 3rd pairing, #1 unit PP specialist by the time Detroit got him.

But from there, the descent goes far beyond "they got old and made bad picks."

There were several short-sighted moves that that didn't help short term and hurt them long term too. Waiving Quincey to keep 46 Y/O Chelios and Derek Meech. Then blowing a first round pick a couple years later to get him back. Jarnkrok for Legwand. Janmark for for Eric Cole.

Cap crippling contracts to Abdelkader, Ericsson, Helm, Nielson.

Bad free agency moves like Weiss, Nielson, Daley, Tootoo, Jason Williams part 2, Samuelson part 2.

Nearly everything they did from the end of 2009 until Larkin was drafted turned out to be the wrong move.

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

Poor drafting is obviously the biggest reason. Specifically, their inability to draft/develop a legitimate top pairing defensemen between Kronwall and Hronek, almost 15 years. Followed by the inabilty to find even a mediocre replacement for Lidstrom and Rafalski. Kronner was a solid top pairing guy, but he had zero help and broke down. Outside of him the best they did was Dan Dekeyser, who is a solid stay at home 2nd pair d-man, and Mike Green, who should was a 3rd pairing, #1 unit PP specialist by the time Detroit got him.

But from there, the descent goes far beyond "they got old and made bad picks."

There were several short-sighted moves that that didn't help short term and hurt them long term too. Waiving Quincey to keep 46 Y/O Chelios and Derek Meech. Then blowing a first round pick a couple years later to get him back. Jarnkrok for Legwand. Janmark for for Eric Cole.

Cap crippling contracts to Abdelkader, Ericsson, Helm, Nielson.

Bad free agency moves like Weiss, Nielson, Daley, Tootoo.

Nearly everything they did from the end of 2009 until Larkin was drafted turned out to be the wrong move.

You had me in the first paragraph, after that I sorta disagree.

All teams make these moves, and they're super minor in reality.

Quincey, young or old, would not have made a difference. Jarnkrok, as good as he's played THIS year, would not have made a difference. Janmark would not have made a difference either. Just like Cole, Legwand, Zidlicky didn't make much of a difference.

Bad FA doesn't matter much either. If say a player like Nielsen was gone, doesn't mean a Larkin would be in his place.

In a draft league you need to draft good players, goes without saying. Maybe we would have drafted better players without these moves, but that's incidental to the move.

 

[TheClap]

You had me in the first paragraph, after that I sorta disagree.

All teams make these moves, and they're super minor in reality.

Quincey, young or old, would not have made a difference. Jarnkrok, as good as he's played THIS year, would not have made a difference. Janmark would not have made a difference either. Just like Cole, Legwand, Zidlicky didn't make much of a difference.

Bad FA doesn't matter much either. If say a player like Nielsen was gone, doesn't mean a Larkin would be in his place.

In a draft league you need to draft good players, goes without saying. Maybe we would have drafted better players without these moves, but that's incidental to the move.

Oh but it did make a difference.

The point is, by attempting to "maintain" the dynasty, which only amounted to a meaningless playoff streak, they only prolonged the inevitable and have made it tougher to dig themselves out of the hole.

The Wings would look a whole lot better with Janmark and Jarnkrok on the 2nd or 3rd lines instead of Nielson, Filppula, Helm. Hell, you could've even gotten decent picks for them when the wholesale started, instead of the over the hill vets that were out of the league by the next season. They'd look even better with that Vezina winning netminder the #1 pick they gave up to get Quincey back after waiving him for nothing.

So yes, these moves absolutely did matter. The retool/rebuild could have been much shorter had they accepted they didn't have what it took at the time, and saved that first round pick and those cheap promising prospects. Started letting the likes of Helm, Abby walk for their paydays.

 

[kliq]

Oh but it did make a difference.

The point is, by attempting to "maintain" the dynasty, which only amounted to a meaningless playoff streak, they only prolonged the inevitable and have made it tougher to dig themselves out of the hole.

The Wings would look a whole lot better with Janmark and Jarnkrok on the 2nd or 3rd lines instead of Nielson, Filppula, Helm. Hell, you could've even gotten decent picks for them when the wholesale started, instead of the over the hill vets that were out of the league by the next season. They'd look even better with that Vezina winning netminder the #1 pick they gave up to get Quincey back after waiving him for nothing.

So yes, these moves absolutely did matter. The retool/rebuild could have been much shorter had they accepted they didn't have what it took, and saved that first round pick and those cheap promising prospects.

Define matter? Had we kept Janmark and Jarnkrok, we dont become contenders, maybe we're marginally better (but then you can argue our draft slots could have been worse). If you want to say that had we kept them we may have an extra 2nd/3rd round pick that we could have moved them for later, sure, I can give you that. Our trajectory as a team though, it isn't any different.

 

[TheClap]

Define matter? Had we kept Janmark and Jarnkrok, we dont become contenders, maybe we're marginally better (but then you can argue our draft slots could have been worse). If you want to say that had we kept them we may have an extra 2nd/3rd round pick that we could have moved them for later, sure, I can give you that. Our trajectory as a team though, it isn't any different.

What of that first round pick we wasted for a guy that was on our roster and was waived for nothing?
The one Yzerman drafted a Vezina winning goalie with. Hell, give me Olli Maata or Mike Matheson who were taken a few picks later.
Surely the future looks quite a bit better than it does now.

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

Oh but it did make a difference.

The point is, by attempting to "maintain" the dynasty, which only amounted to a meaningless playoff streak, they only prolonged the inevitable and have made it tougher to dig themselves out of the hole.

The Wings would look a whole lot better with Janmark and Jarnkrok on the 2nd or 3rd lines instead of Nielson, Filppula, Helm. Hell, you could've even gotten decent picks for them when the wholesale started, instead of the over the hill vets that were out of the league by the next season. They'd look even better with that Vezina winning netminder the #1 pick they gave up to get Quincey back after waiving him for nothing.

So yes, these moves absolutely did matter. The retool/rebuild could have been much shorter had they accepted they didn't have what it took at the time, and saved that first round pick and those cheap promising prospects. Started letting the likes of Helm, Abby walk for their paydays.

You're completely overestimating the impact of players like Janmark and Jarnkrok.

Would I FEEL better this these younger guys on the team? Sure, probably marginally. But the situation remains the same. Janmark really isn't much different than Filppula, and Janmark isn't much different than Nielsen. These are not impact players. We are a losing team with or without them.

Not trading Quincey doe not equal drafting and developing Vasilevky. For all we know the Wings would've taken Laughton or Jankowski in that draft...

You have to have elite talent to win. Squabbling over minor moves is exactly what it is... squabbling

 

[Go Wings]

What caused their demise was poor drafting nothing else. For a dynasty built through the draft they have many years where they just werent hitting on picks.

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

What of that first round pick we wasted for a guy that was on our roster and was waived for nothing?
The one Yzerman drafted a Vezina winning goalie with. Hell, give me Olli Maata or Mike Matheson who were taken a few picks later.
Surely the future looks quite a bit better than it does now.

See your argument devolves into "maybe we get Maata" Would that even make a significant difference?

Maybe we get Gretsky too

Maybe Pamela Anderson decides she loves me after all

Maybe

 

[Frk It]

If people think we drafted ‘poorly’ I don’t think they understand just how hard it is to hit on draft picks.

I’d say we drafted at worst average, but just consistently from draft positions.

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

If people think we drafted ‘poorly’ I don’t think they understand just how hard it is to hit on draft picks.

I’d say we drafted at worst average, but just consistently from draft positions.

We didn't draft a top4 Dman for 16 years. Not sure what else I need to point out to you to make the point...

Agreed that drafting is sort of a crapshoot, but what I'm saying is our crapshoot turned up only crap. It's pretty obvious...

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Did you not post the video because you wanted a discussion about it? When you do that, you're obviously going to get feedback on both sides of the argument. Not really fair to post a video for people to watch, then when they dont agree, tell them "Dont watch it".

Video's like this always have a few good point, but like many have said, the downfall was inevitable. No team has stayed good forever, the fact that the Wings were able to do it for 20+ years is an outlier in its own.

He called the video "crap" like he is obligated to watch it. It's documenting what has happened. If you don't like it fine but to say it's "crap" is wanting to have a discussion??

 

[kliq]

What of that first round pick we wasted for a guy that was on our roster and was waived for nothing?
The one Yzerman drafted a Vezina winning goalie with. Hell, give me Olli Maata or Mike Matheson who were taken a few picks later.
Surely the future looks quite a bit better than it does now.

We arent taking a goalie with that pick, we likely end up with Olli Maanta. If you want me to say Quincy for a 1st was a bad trade, I 100% agree. I AM NOT defending Holland on that one.

If you are trying to sell me that our future looks much brighter with Maanta over Quincy, I'm sorry but I dont buy it, we are marginally better. Guy is 25 and on the third pairing (6th in TOI among D-men) on a garbage Blackhawks team. He's not some top pairing D-man.

This is my point, all these bad moves made by Holland were 100% bad moves, but they didn't change anything in the grand scheme of things. We were headed in the direction we were headed because our young players never became anything more then top 6 forwards/D-men. For us to have reversed our fortune, we needed a guy like Nyquist to become a Panarin, or a guy like Sproul to become a Subban etc.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Saving money f0r an impact player was never gonna save us, outside of maybe Suter and Parise... and we know how that's going for Minny. Trading would have been a net wash in the long run, barring a genius move by Holland.

Ur absolutely kidding yourself if you think the team would have kept the dynasty going until today, and I'm a mecha Holland supporter. The rebuild was always coming, and the only realistic revisionist argument you can make is that it should have been started sooner.



> Posts a video on message board for opinions. Has a negative reaction when someone has a different opinion.

Imagine being this dense

Also, how is anyone supposed to know they disagreed or didn't like it unless they watch it? Lol truly galaxy brained

First of all don't quote me to insult me. Dense is basically calling me stupid and I think you are using that particular word to "defeat the system" instead of just saying stupid because you know what the consequences are. That's a cowardly move but not surprised. Anyway to say the video is "crap" sole purpose is to aggravate/troll not to have a dialogue about it whatsoever!

 

[kliq]

If people think we drafted ‘poorly’ I don’t think they understand just how hard it is to hit on draft picks.

I’d say we drafted at worst average, but just consistently from draft positions.

I see what you are saying, and maybe wording should be "we didnt hit big on many draft picks", because between 02 and 08 we really didnt hit on anything.
The point is that when you don't land future cornerstones in the draft, its very hard to continue a dynasty. 100% agree though, when you dont have any top 10 picks, doing that becomes incredibly hard.

 

[kliq]

He called the video "crap" like he is obligated to watch it. It's documenting what has happened. If you don't like it fine but to say it's "crap" is wanting to have a discussion??

Well its a perspective on what happened. Either way, If you would have countered with the bold, I wouldn't have posted anything.

 

[Winger98]

we bag on the quincey trade all of the time, but we really got pretty decent value for that pick. The guy was here for 256 games over the course of five seasons, putting up 48 points, a +13, and holding down 19-21 minutes a night. Is it as good a value as what Tampa got from that pick? No, but put Quincey up against the average player that comes from that pick and the Wings win that deal more often than not. we can argue he shouldn't have been waived in the first place, but he also could have played better the previous season in GR, and he had a back injury that was serious enough to scuttle a trade to Dallas that fall.

Admittedly, I haven't watched the video but it's not like we haven't had this discussion before. The Wings made some mistakes over the last nine years. They shouldn't have went after Samuelsson The Sequel/Tootoo/Coliacavo/White. They needed to do a better job of picking their core pieces (Z, Kronwall, Nyquist) and moving the ones who weren't (Gator, Helm). Could they have avoided the sort of rebuild they're going through now? Maybe, but they could have also just pushed back the window for this rebuild a few more years, too.

There was no way this organization was going to head into a hard rebuild as far back as 2015, but they could have been more aggressive in fishing for picks/prospects, and probably still been a playoff team on the backs of Z, D, and Kronwall.

 

[deca guard]

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Talk about the topic and not each other please...

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

First of all don't quote me to insult me. Dense is basically calling me stupid and I think you are using that particular word to "defeat the system" instead of just saying stupid because you know what the consequences are. That's a cowardly move but not surprised. Anyway to say the video is "crap" sole purpose is to aggravate/troll not to have a dialogue about it whatsoever!

Talk about the topic and not each other please...

[mod edit]

ABOUT THE VIDEO (topic at hand) NOT ABOUT OP: I think this video is BS and [mod edit for the stuff not about the video]. Feel free to discuss me.

 

[deca guard]

Poor drafting is obviously the biggest reason. Specifically, their inability to draft/develop a legitimate top pairing defensemen between Kronwall and Hronek, almost 15 years. Followed by the inabilty to find even a mediocre replacement for Lidstrom and Rafalski. Kronner was a solid top pairing guy, but he had zero help and broke down. Outside of him the best they did was Dan Dekeyser, who is a solid stay at home 2nd pair d-man, and Mike Green, who should was a 3rd pairing, #1 unit PP specialist by the time Detroit got him.

But from there, the descent goes far beyond "they got old and made bad picks."

There were several short-sighted moves that that didn't help short term and hurt them long term too. Waiving Quincey to keep 46 Y/O Chelios and Derek Meech. Then blowing a first round pick a couple years later to get him back. Jarnkrok for Legwand. Janmark for for Eric Cole.

Cap crippling contracts to Abdelkader, Ericsson, Helm, Nielson.

Bad free agency moves like Weiss, Nielson, Daley, Tootoo, Jason Williams part 2, Samuelson part 2.

Nearly everything they did from the end of 2009 until Larkin was drafted turned out to be the wrong move.

bingo bango ! cuts right through all the red wing fan boys malarky outlooks and gets right to the heart of the matter saving me the time to type it out . and im still seething on a 24/7/365 basis about the 1st for kyle q , i want to go kick a garbage can right now . then there was the day i was put on suicide watch after kenny handed helm whom should have been left to walk a 4x4