How the Red Wings attempt to maintain a dynasty caused their demise

[Steve Yzerlland]

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[Claypool]

I hate when my sports teams try to win.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

I hate when my sports teams try to win.

Do you like derailing threads?

 

[TheOtherOne]

I know this is an unpopular opinion here but if you own a franchise that's in the middle of a bonafide dynasty, your ONLY sensible choice is to attempt to maintain that dynasty for as long as possible without regard to what happens after.

 

[TheRatPoisoner]

All teams collapse eventually. Rebuilds are inevitable in the cap era.

Some rebuilds be managed better than others, but I don't see how any team can avoid one all together.

 

[kliq]

All teams collapse eventually. Rebuilds are inevitable in the cap era.

Some rebuilds be managed better than others, but I don't see how any team can avoid one all together.

Look at Chicago and LA as we speak.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I hate when my sports teams try to win.

I love when my sports teams accept mediocrity.

 

[Dynheart]

It's weird, the dynamic between the fans, the brass running the organization, and the players. We sit here chanting for losses each and every game just for a better chance at a #1 pick, the guys up top have their own plans, and the players...they're competitive, they just want to win (every player out there hates losing, I'm sure). I highly doubt the players go out on the ice with the mentality of "lets think long term for the franchise, because we may be bottom feeders in 2 years. The key may be to tank this season, but look good in the process, just to get a stud player to add to the roster next for next season." Nah, they go out their to win, despite what their fans, or GM, thinks.

Holland wanted that 25 year mark, and I'm sure the players wanted to be a part of that as well. Hell, they would have made it a 26th if they could.

 

[Tirekicker]

I love when my sports teams accept mediocrity.

I hate sports.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

These are always just crap.

The Wings demise was caused by nobody but Father Time and picks not working out.

It’s not some massive surprise or whatever that a team at the top had nowhere to go but down.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I love when my sports teams accept mediocrity.

They’re not “accepting mediocrity”. There is only so much you can do in any given year. I just think it’s bullcrap that somehow it’s an honorable thing and the right path to decide to suck for fun.

That the logical extension is that more teams should do what Ottawa does or Buffalo did rather than actually try to improve their team. That if you can’t get the lottery piece, you might as well just kill yourself.

Professional sports is literally taking a page out of Reece Bobby from Talladega Nights “if you’re not first, you’re last.” Which is so ridiculous. There are all kinds of different spots you can finish.

 

[ricky0034]

I just continue to be upset on missing out on that 2015 draft

if the Wings actually rebuilt when they should have they would have had a high pick during that thing and just....look at that monster of a draft

 

[kliq]

I just continue to be upset on missing out on that 2015 draft

if the Wings actually rebuilt when they should have they would have had a high pick during that thing and just....look at that monster of a draft

I don’t think Illitch ever would have been ok with tearing it down.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I just continue to be upset on missing out on that 2015 draft

if the Wings actually rebuilt when they should have they would have had a high pick during that thing and just....look at that monster of a draft

That was an awesome season. I’ll take 100 point, entertaining seasons with playoff appearances 10 times out of 10 over needlessly being a bottomdweller.

 

[Fil Larkmanthanasiou]

Holland's obsession with veteran depth caused their demise. He kept giving up prospects and picks for vets they didn't need. There was a time when their 4th and 5th best forwards (Nyquist and Tatar) were playing in the minors because the team was overstocked with redundant vets preventing youngsters from getting a shot.
If he would have saved some of the cap space spent on veteran depth for impact players and not traded away prospects for shitty veteran depth, the dynasty may have survived still.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

These are always just crap.

The Wings demise was caused by nobody but Father Time and picks not working out.

It’s not some massive surprise or whatever that a team at the top had nowhere to go but down.

Don't watch it?

 

[Pavels Dog]

Holland's obsession with veteran depth caused their demise. He kept giving up prospects and picks for vets they didn't need. There was a time when their 4th and 5th best forwards (Nyquist and Tatar) were playing in the minors because the team was overstocked with redundant vets preventing youngsters from getting a shot.
If he would have saved some of the cap space spent on veteran depth for impact players and not traded away prospects for ****ty veteran depth, the dynasty may have survived still.

No. We can literally go through every pick and prospect traded and even in a 100% best case hindsight scenario we wouldn’t have been good enough to avoid some manner of rebuilding.

Chicago, LA, Pittsburgh, SJ, NYR, Vancouver.. all these teams are or will be rebuilding. Because their GMs suck/sucked? No, because they were good for a long time and the league is designed to ensure no team stays good forever.

 

[kliq]

Don't watch it?

Did you not post the video because you wanted a discussion about it? When you do that, you're obviously going to get feedback on both sides of the argument. Not really fair to post a video for people to watch, then when they dont agree, tell them "Dont watch it".

Video's like this always have a few good point, but like many have said, the downfall was inevitable. No team has stayed good forever, the fact that the Wings were able to do it for 20+ years is an outlier in its own.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I don’t think Illitch ever would have been ok with tearing it down.

He wouldn't have been. Devellano and a few others confirmed this in an Edmonton Athletic article. Much of what has been proposed by the so called Holland defenders was stated or heavily eluded to. Well before the last few post-season exits Holland admitted the wheels were off, but their directive was to continue the streak.

Honestly glad he held in there until Yzerman. But this thread will go the same way they always do with the same arguments. Holland couldn't pull off a third core, without heavy rebuild. Shocking it means he is no different than any GM in the history of the sport where they have designed that not to happen. Wasn't even aided by the Quebec rules that the only other team to really do it twice did have. Both carried over a HHOF to two cores. We will see, I have a feeling Holland will be remembered quite fondly in the actual hockey community where he is a sure fire HHOF guy and one of the all-time best executives...

 

[Fil Larkmanthanasiou]

No. We can literally go through every pick and prospect traded and even in a 100% best case hindsight scenario we wouldn’t have been good enough to avoid some manner of rebuilding.

Chicago, LA, Pittsburgh, SJ, NYR, Vancouver.. all these teams are or will be rebuilding. Because their GMs suck/sucked? No, because they were good for a long time and the league is designed to ensure no team stays good forever.

We wouldn't have picked who the other teams picked and had we not wasted cap space on so many unnecessary depth veterans we would have space for some impact players which would have made us more successful and thus still an attractive destination for impact players looking to win a Cup.

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

We wouldn't have picked who the other teams picked and had we not wasted cap space on so many unnecessary depth veterans we would have space for some impact players which would have made us more successful and thus still an attractive destination for impact players looking to win a Cup.

Here's my questions for your fantasy alternative reality...

1. In your view how much cap was wasted on vets? Or alternatively, which vets do you feel were a waste?
2. Which impact player did you intend on fixing this team with?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

The Wings flopped because their stars got old and they made bad picks. It is literally as simple as that. It’s not “oh they tried to stay good so they collapsed.” No, it’s that they got literally no impact players and only a couple good ones from 2005-2011.

I mean, they had 3 picks before Kucherov was taken in that draft. It wasn’t lack of bites at the apple, it was that every apple they bit into turned out to be rotten.

I don’t know how you can take “they sucked because they got old and didn’t replace their old stars” as being a slappy.

I’m just saying that it’s complete bullcrap to look at what happened and say “oh, they didn’t lose enough. That was the problem.” No, the problem was that Holland and his scouting crew made bad calls on what guys to extend and what guys they picked with the picks they retained. Then, when they basically pulled an O’fer from the 2011 D draft, the 2012 FA market, the 2013 and 2014 FA markets... they were dead.

so basically, the Wings simply made bad investments with their money, not that the decision to do so was necessarily wrong

 

[kliq]

Here's my questions for your fantasy alternative reality...

1. In your view how much cap was wasted on vets? Or alternatively, which vets do you feel were a waste?
2. Which impact player did you intend on fixing this team with?

I think people forget that UFA over the past 10 years has pretty much been a collection of average to above average vets. Guys like JT and Suter come around in UFA once in a blue moon. Heck, the year we signed Mike Green, I remember TSN ranked him as the #1 UFA that year.

 

[kliq]

I love threads like these, you always get the same slappies coming out of the woodwork to defend the last decade of crap management.

If you guys love Holland so much maybe you should go buy some Oilers jerseys.

Nobody is defending anything, did you even read what is being written. The video is titled "How the Red Wings attempt to maintain a dynasty caused their demise" of course people are going to call out the video, the title alone is incorrect. If the title was "The Red Wings Rebuild that started 4 years too late" I think most would agree. Holland made plenty of mistakes, lets not make this like politics where people are too dense to see things as anything other then black and white.

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

I’m not defending it.

The Wings flopped because their stars got old and they made bad picks. It is literally as simple as that. It’s not “oh they tried to stay good so they collapsed.” No, it’s that they got literally no impact players and only a couple good ones from 2005-2011.

I mean, they had 3 picks before Kucherov was taken in that draft. It wasn’t lack of bites at the apple, it was that every apple they bit into turned out to be rotten.

I don’t know how you can take “they sucked because they got old and didn’t replace their old stars” as being a slappy.

I’m just saying that it’s complete bullcrap to look at what happened and say “oh, they didn’t lose enough. That was the problem.” No, the problem was that Holland and his scouting crew made bad calls on what guys to extend and what guys they picked with the picks they retained. Then, when they basically pulled an O’fer from the 2011 D draft, the 2012 FA market, the 2013 and 2014 FA markets... they were dead.

so basically, the Wings simply made bad investments with their money, not that the decision to do so was necessarily wrong

Spot on. You can almost filter it down to purely poor personnel assessment. Of both vets and rookies.

I think a lot of people will knee jerk and say it was the vets that really screwed us, because their contracts are still laboring us. But honestly I think the big killer was poor drafting. We did not draft a single competent Dman for 16 years after Kronwall. That fact is astonishing personally. The myth of superior Wings drafting was the biggest lie for a while.