Sportsnet: How Senators’ Chabot stacks up against Karlsson, team history

[JungleBeat]

Chabot is already phenomenal even if he'll never match Karlsson.

In terms of this comparison, it shows Chabot keeping up with Karlsson, but this is where Karlsson was beginning to explode as he headed towards his first Norris.

Karlsson won the Norris in his 21 year old season. Chabot is 22 going on 23.

 

[Micklebot]

Great. You listed some guys that played at 39 and beyond

How about we create a list of HHOF guys that retired before 39 and that played longer than that. Which list do you think will be longer?

Hence why I said he had a decent chance. He has a lot of the attributes that other players that make it to 39 have.

But since you asked, there are 36 players who played their final season in the last 20 years and have been inducted to the hall of fame. 26 of them were 39 or older in their final season.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[JD1]

Hence why I said he had a decent chance. He has a lot of the attributes that other players that make it to 39 have.

But since you asked, there are 36 players who played their final season in the last 20 years and have been inducted to the hall of fame. 26 of them were 39 or older in their final season.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

I am a bit surprised by that data but i can't see that trend holding. Too much money in today's game

Karlsson does have some of those attributes but he lacks others imo. For starters he has had two major mobility issues that have detracted from what made him who he is. Lidstrom won all those Norris trophies in his 30s. Karlsson is already in noticeable decline and he hasn't hit his 30s. Secondly he's of a different generation and i just don't see him staying that long.

 

[HavlatMach9]

Karlsson won the Norris in his 21 year old season. Chabot is 22 going on 23.

In terms of just NHL games played. Karlsson also played in a lower scoring era.

 

[JD1]

Why is this such a contentious article? Someone writes an article celebrating the success of a current ottawa senator and it degrades into a pissing match

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Re

Why is this such a contentious article? Someone writes an article celebrating the success of a current ottawa senator and it degrades into a pissing match

I read this post then read post #4.

 

[Micklebot]

I am a bit surprised by that data but i can't see that trend holding. Too much money in today's game

Karlsson does have some of those attributes but he lacks others imo. For starters he has had two major mobility issues that have detracted from what made him who he is. Lidstrom won all those Norris trophies in his 30s. Karlsson is already in noticeable decline and he hasn't hit his 30s. Secondly he's of a different generation and i just don't see him staying that long.

I honestly thought it would be around 50%, so I was suprised as well.

Wrt Karlsson, watching him these days I don't really see mobility as an issue, yes he has had injuries that had lingering impacts, but imo he's mostly recovered back to where he was (not pre Achilles, but certainly pre ECF run). What always astounds me is how effective he can be with major mobility issues (see our ECF run), and how ineffective he can be when you would think things should be improving (see the very next season after surgery or any other post injury reg season). The guy has a weird ability to flip a switch, but doesn't seem to know where that switch is half the time.

He'll finish his current contract at 37 years old, which might be a bit early for him to hang them up, so I could see him giving it one last contract. It wouldn't shock me if he takes a 2 year deal after this one and retire at 38, but I could see him stretching it out and either signing 1 year deals until he's ready to hang them up, or hold out for an initial 3 year deal the way Gonchar did with us.

A lot likely depends on whether or not he wins a cup while on his current deal. If he doesn't, he may choose to sign a deal with a contender to be a depth guy. If he has multiple cup rings by then, what would he really have left to prove.

Anyhow, this is supposed to be about Chabot more so than Karlsson. Chabot is a beauty, but he's got a long way to go to reach the peaks that Karlsson has. Hopefully he doesn't have the same valleys (or injury issues) though.

The good news for Chabot is that we seem to have really loaded up with D prospects to support him. That's not to say we didn't try to do so with Karlsson (Rundblad, Cowen, Wiercioch and Karlsson were supposed to become one of the best D groups of the future) but it didn't work out last time around.

 

[JD1]

Re

I read this post then read post #4.

Post #4 was directed at batherseason and references some history between us. It's really not meant for you to understand

 

[SensFactor]

What a dumb response. Go ask sj fans. All they are noticing is that he's been their best player.

Why have some Sens fans turned into salty Doughty fans after he's left?

No they haven't been. If you think he's been their best player, you should stop watching hockey. He has declined considerably, don't know what else to tell you.

 

[SensFactor]

That's hilarious. He's a top penalty killer on the best penalty killing team in the league - a team that doesn't have a great goalie. His on-ice EV goal differential is -4. Burns is -21. Nobody has ever called him a shutdown D-man and everyone knows he can have his rough patches. But the good outweighs the bad by a good margin when he's in-form. It was that way in 11-12, 12-13, 14-15, 15-16, 16-17, 18-19 for the month and a half where he was on fire, and for the last month and a half this season.

What's more hilarious is paying him 11.5 million for another 7 seasons. I'm glad we dodged that bullet.

 

[BatherSeason]

Why is this such a contentious article? Someone writes an article celebrating the success of a current ottawa senator and it degrades into a pissing match

Maybe keep the petty stuff out of forums that you aren't interested in posting in. Everyone knows your feelings towards Karlsson, strange of you to come in here, almost like you are purposely trying to bait people into a confrontation. Feel free to private message me anytime you have a problem with anything I post, if not, you can just ignore me.

 

[JD1]

I honestly thought it would be around 50%, so I was suprised as well.

Wrt Karlsson, watching him these days I don't really see mobility as an issue, yes he has had injuries that had lingering impacts, but imo he's mostly recovered back to where he was (not pre Achilles, but certainly pre ECF run). What always astounds me is how effective he can be with major mobility issues (see our ECF run), and how ineffective he can be when you would think things should be improving (see the very next season after surgery or any other post injury reg season). The guy has a weird ability to flip a switch, but doesn't seem to know where that switch is half the time.

He'll finish his current contract at 37 years old, which might be a bit early for him to hang them up, so I could see him giving it one last contract. It wouldn't shock me if he takes a 2 year deal after this one and retire at 38, but I could see him stretching it out and either signing 1 year deals until he's ready to hang them up, or hold out for an initial 3 year deal the way Gonchar did with us.

A lot likely depends on whether or not he wins a cup while on his current deal. If he doesn't, he may choose to sign a deal with a contender to be a depth guy. If he has multiple cup rings by then, what would he really have left to prove.

Anyhow, this is supposed to be about Chabot more so than Karlsson. Chabot is a beauty, but he's got a long way to go to reach the peaks that Karlsson has. Hopefully he doesn't have the same valleys (or injury issues) though.

The good news for Chabot is that we seem to have really loaded up with D prospects to support him. That's not to say we didn't try to do so with Karlsson (Rundblad, Cowen, Wiercioch and Karlsson were supposed to become one of the best D groups of the future) but it didn't work out last time around.

I've seen Karlsson play live twice in a Sharks jersey plus a handful of games on the tube. I don't see the same player.

SJ is imo in really bad shape. I dare say that they may be in the worst shape in the league wrt to signed contracts, player ages, NMCs in contracts, regression curves, draft picks they traded etc. I don't see a cup coming there.

Your right. He could hang around forever on one year deals. IMO its just as likely that he gets bought out of this deal and hangs them up at 35. Who knows, maybe he ends up back here on a low dollar deal by then as a bottom pair PP specialist guy

 

[JD1]

Maybe keep the petty stuff out of forums that you aren't interested in posting in. Everyone knows your feelings towards Karlsson, strange of you to come in here, almost like you are purposely trying to bait people into a confrontation. Feel free to private message me anytime you have a problem with anything I post, if not, you can just ignore me.

As i said, someone writes an article celebrating one of our players and there you are, first reply, on the heels of you saying the other day we need to let this stuff go, with the negative take and imagining the what if. Seems to me it's you looking to bait things

 

[Micklebot]

I've seen Karlsson play live twice in a Sharks jersey plus a handful of games on the tube. I don't see the same player.

SJ is imo in really bad shape. I dare say that they may be in the worst shape in the league wrt to signed contracts, player ages, NMCs in contracts, regression curves, draft picks they traded etc. I don't see a cup coming there.

Your right. He could hang around forever on one year deals. IMO its just as likely that he gets bought out of this deal and hangs them up at 35. Who knows, maybe he ends up back here on a low dollar deal by then as a bottom pair PP specialist guy

He's certainly not playing the same, but skating imo isn't why. He really looks like their system isn't allowing him to move around the way he can once they get to the OZ.

I do agree with you that SJ is in rough shape. The Jones, Burns and Vlasic deals are tough ones to deal with right now, and the later two are over 32 already. Karlsson, Kane and Couture are all a little younger, but risky because of their term, dollars and age. That's part of why I think he'll stick around. He will want a cup and I don't think he'll get it on this contract unless he gets moved.

SJ might have to trade some of these guys off with retention the way the leafs did with Kessel but they really handcuffed themselves with their 3 team NTC and full NMC contracts. Teams might be interested in Burns at 6 m, Vlasic at 5, and Karlsson at 8, that would cost them 7.5 mil of their cap space, but presumably restock the cabinets a fair bit, but if any of them don't want to move, they are SOL.

Wilson went all in to try and win and is dealing with the repercussions now. Had they not run into injuries last year, maybe they have a cup instead of StL, but they'd still be a mess even if they had a cup to show for it...

 

[Answer]

Karlsson won the Norris in his 21 year old season. Chabot is 22 going on 23.

Karlsson had players like Alfredsson and Spezza upfront as 1st line players. Now compare that with what Chabot has as a 1st line player, Tkachuk

 

[Karl Prime]

Karlsson had players like Alfredsson and Spezza upfront as 1st line players. Now compare that with what Chabot has as a 1st line player, Tkachuk

Yes, EK's first Norris was aided by Spezza's monster season. But he also had his 82 in 82 season where Stone was the best forward with 61 in 75. Either way, 21 year-old Chabot probably wasn't winning the Norris with the same supporting cast in 11-12.

 

[aragorn]

Karlsson won the Norris in his 21 year old season. Chabot is 22 going on 23.

EK also started his career when the Sens were a pretty good team playing in the playoffs quite consistently. Chabot has started his career on a team in their decline & now rebuilding. Both are offensively gifted defencemen who are also questionable defensively. IMO Chabot could win a Norris trophy one day & maybe more than one but even if he doesn't Ottawa is lucky to have another dynamic offensive defenceman.

 

[Micklebot]

EK also started his career when the Sens were a pretty good team playing in the playoffs quite consistently.

What? He was drafted in 08 and we missed the playoffs the next year. His time here was pretty much make it one year miss the next the entire time save the 1st two seasons of Maclean which was aided by some outstanding goaltending in a lockout shortened year.

No need to re-write history. We were not a great or consistent team, we were a bubble team most years.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

What's the debate here?

Karlsson and Chabot .. Karlsson was absolutely fantastic to watch here. He was worth the price of admission many nights. Chabot is the up and comer, is already pretty great and is already definitely a franchise cornerstone Dman.
Who cares about anything else?

 

[Ice-Tray]

EK was an amazing player for us, the best league-wide player in his prime that we have ever had by far.

Chabot will never be as special of a player as EK was, but he could definitely reach a Peitrangelo, or Doughty level.

Chabot could be an Alfie, Spezza, Heater type league star that we’ve had, but EK was a generational player at his position. He wasn’t always stellar in his own zone, but he was one of the best players period in the offensive zone compared to decades of players past.

 

[JD1]

What? He was drafted in 08 and we missed the playoffs the next year. His time here was pretty much make it one year miss the next the entire time save the 1st two seasons of Maclean which was aided by some outstanding goaltending in a lockout shortened year.

No need to re-write history. We were not a great or consistent team, we were a bubble team most years.

We made the playoffs in 2 of Karlsson's first 3 years which is a lot more than what we've been in Chabot's time isn't it? I think that was the point

 

[Micklebot]

We made the playoffs in 2 of Karlsson's first 3 years which is a lot more than what we've been in Chabot's time isn't it? I think that was the point

That's a pretty low standard for "pretty good team that made the playoffs consistently" don't you think?

Call a spade a spade, we were a bubble team. Is that better than what we are now? Absolutely, but there is no need to dress it up as something it isn't.

 

[JD1]

That's a pretty low standard for "pretty good team that made the playoffs consistently" don't you think?

Call a spade a spade, we were a bubble team. Is that better than what we are now? Absolutely, but there is no need to dress it up as something it isn't.

You are rewriting history here, not me

Karlsson was drafted in 08 as uou mentioned and yes we missed the playoffs the following year. Karlsson did not play that year

His first year in the league we finished 5th in the east. Second we missed. Third we made the playoffs finishing t7th...which is bubble territory.

In your quote back to me, you said "made the playoffs consistently" what @aragorn said was "quite consistently" which is different

In Karlsson's first 3 years the team had 94, 74 and 92 points. Thats an 87 point average

In Chabot's first two years we had 67 and 64 points and we're pacing around 75 this year

Calling a spade a spade, I don't think there's any question that Karlsson broke in to the league on a stronger team which was Aragorn's assertion.

 

[bert]

I think we should just be really happy and fortunate that the sens have another franchise defenseman in Chabot. I agree with the sentiment that Karlsson is gone and thats that there is no point in rehashing it anymore. Time to move on.

What I would like to acknowledge is that the team made a commitment to the rebuild, they traded all the stars. Now that they have done that the organization needs to continue with the commitment they made in blowing up the team. That means continuing with the plan and trading all the UFA's and the players that dont have a long term future in the organization. However it appears to me the people running this team dont really even actually have an end game of plan moving forward. If so trades would already have been made and young players would be given larger roles and more opportunity to develop.

Thats my issue, no real direction and probably the reason why all those players wanted to leave as there is no commitment to achieving the ultimate goal of winning a stanley cup. I think the organization is in a good position moving forward but this season needs to be excecuted properly.

 

[JD1]

I think we should just be really happy and fortunate that the sens have another franchise defenseman in Chabot. I agree with the sentiment that Karlsson is gone and thats that there is no point in rehashing it anymore. Time to move on.

What I would like to acknowledge is that the team made a commitment to the rebuild, they traded all the stars. Now that they have done that the organization needs to continue with the commitment they made in blowing up the team. That means continuing with the plan and trading all the UFA's and the players that dont have a long term future in the organization. However it appears to me the people running this team dont really even actually have an end game of plan moving forward. If so trades would already have been made and young players would be given larger roles and more opportunity to develop.

Thats my issue, no real direction and probably the reason why all those players wanted to leave as there is no commitment to achieving the ultimate goal of winning a stanley cup. I think the organization is in a good position moving forward but this season needs to be excecuted properly.

Kinda hard to move the UFAs though considering you need a trade partner and we're a bit early for that right now. I think activity will really pick up in mid January

I hope they sign Demelo and Boro. Trade Namestikov and Ennis. Sign Pageau/trade Tierney or trade Pageau/keep Tierney

And i dont think there us a market for Anisimov. Hopefully he gets bought out this summer.