How much consideration should Dion Phaneuf get for the Norris Trophy?

[mikebel111*]

Dion penalties are often retaliatory type ones and when he does this is might as well put on our opponents Jersey as he is helping them. Teams know this and goat him into many penalties as a result, let's not make excuses for him by blaming the refs as there are enough excuses already. He needs a better partner. It's the refs fault the other d man are horrible. It's itritating to hear all the excuse made for Dion. It is his fault that he takes those types of penalties as he lacks self control. Watch when he pinches and you will see for your self exactly what I stated.

I never questioned the timing of the pinches but how once he decides to pinch he stays in. That is the issue. Again let's not make excuses for him as it is on him. It is all about his leadership that I posted it. Leaders lead by example He is not an example but he is the cause.

not blaming officials but really some have been bad calls. I do agree that dion needs to control himself. remember in game 7, where dion made lucic take a penalty as dion didn't react to the beating he was getting, that is the dion I want to see more.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Dion is not elite at rushing the puck.....he has his head down and even ran into the linesman last game while rushing the puck. There is nothing at all Elite about Dion....Nothing.

In terms of zone entries, Dion is amongst the best. He is a pretty elite puck rusher despite not being a very creative partner.

Pronger was a much better skater then Dion....I never said exceptional....you always introduce words etc to what I say when debating an opinion and I would rather you stick to what I said. I said he was not an average skater....he was better then average....a good skater, were as Dion is a below average NHL skater....I hope that clears up my stance for you.

Yes, I always introduce words. As I said, Pronger never seemed natural moving the puck up the ice. What he used was his outright elite passing ability. Much like Dion, he had great top speed, but his ability to accelerate was rather average. The reason why Dion seems so vulnerable is due to our high tempo playing style.

You comparing Dion in any way to Pronger is a joke.

I could even compare Dion to Lidstrom ( arguably, the greatest defenceman of all time) by looking at physicality. Much like Pronger - who is a generational defenceman ( unlike Phaneuf) - Lidstrom's playing style didn't have a large physicality component.

What I've noticed is that you're obsessed with Phaneuf. He's not producing at a top ten rate ( due to utilisation), but he's tops in terms of GA/60. It's hard to deny that his defensive game is really strong, but the minute he does bad ( never mind how he's utilised), you enter the scene.

 

[diceman934]

In terms of zone entries, Dion is amongst the best. He is a pretty elite puck rusher despite not being a very creative partner.


Yes, I always introduce words. As I said, Pronger never seemed natural moving the puck up the ice. What he used was his outright elite passing ability. Much like Dion, he had great top speed, but his ability to accelerate was rather average. The reason why Dion seems so vulnerable is due to our high tempo playing style.

I could even compare Dion to Lidstrom ( arguably, the greatest defenceman of all time) by looking at physicality. Much like Pronger - who is a generational defenceman ( unlike Phaneuf) - Lidstrom's playing style didn't have a large physicality component.

What I've noticed is that you're obsessed with Phaneuf. He's not producing at a top ten rate ( due to utilisation), but he's tops in terms of GA/60. It's hard to deny that his defensive game is really strong, but the minute he does bad ( never mind how he's utilised), you enter the scene.

What I notice about you is that you like to make outlandish comparison when debating. Dion is what he is which is a good D man nothing more and not to be compared with any of the top d man now or in the past. If I was going to compare him with anyone it would not be any elite player. I also do not get were you get that he is good on the rush. He has difficultly making a pass when he is moving as that requires getting your head up. He is no where near our best passer if the puck nor the best damn to carry the puck up ice, so calling him elite at zone entries when we have two how are better then him is nuts and over exaggerated. He is not being missed used in any way. You can keep insisting that he is but he is being used as a per his skills myself he would not be on our first PP unit as we have better options.

 

[Confucius]

I just have to say, Dion and puck rusher just screams, oxymoron.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

What I notice about you is that you like to make outlandish comparison when debating. Dion is what he is which is a good D man nothing more and not to be compared with any of the top d man now or in the past. If I was going to compare him with anyone it would not be any elite player. I also do not get were you get that he is good on the rush. He has difficultly making a pass when he is moving as that requires getting your head up. He is no where near our best passer if the puck nor the best damn to carry the puck up ice, so calling him elite at zone entries when we have two how are better then him is nuts and over exaggerated. He is not being missed used in any way. You can keep insisting that he is but he is being used as a per his skills myself he would not be on our first PP unit as we have better options.

Your better options included Franson taking his tough minutes and umm, he's one of the major reasons why our PP is pretty effective. Oh well, he is signed to a $7 million cap deal, and will be here long-term.

 

[diceman934]

Your better options included Franson taking his tough minutes and umm, he's one of the major reasons why our PP is pretty effective. Oh well, he is signed to a $7 million cap deal, and will be here long-term.

You may not have noticed but players get traded all the time even players on long term deals. He will not be here for the full term of his contract.

Again you add things that are not part of our debate no were did I suggest Franson as his replacement never have on here. You have several times. I thought we were discussing him and his value as a player in general. Is he Norris worthy and he is not.

As for better PP options I would use Gardner or Reilly over him.

 

[TheThrill81*]

Dat backhand

[nhl]575968[/nhl]

 

[mikebel111*]

Solid game from our captain tonight. Hardly noticable tonight.
That was a real beatiful finish. Guy has hands!

 

[Cleatus]

Dat backhand

[nhl]575968[/nhl]

Sorry, but his first backhand goal in his entire career (probabaly), won't do anything for his Norris considerations.

And before anyone hates on me, I really am a huge fan of Phaneuf, but I'm also a huge critic.

 

[diceman934]

Solid game from our captain tonight. Hardly noticable tonight.
That was a real beatiful finish. Guy has hands!

I agree Dion had a very good game tonight.

 

[TheThrill81*]

Sorry, but his first backhand goal in his entire career (probabaly), won't do anything for his Norris considerations.

And before anyone hates on me, I really am a huge fan of Phaneuf, but I'm also a huge critic.

Sounds like you're the one doing the hating. I simply posted a video of that great goal he scored, and at the same time displaying his vastly underrated stickhandling. You chose to jump to conclusions, assuming that I thought this would do something for his Norris considerations. Everyone's a critic, few critics admit when they're wrong.

 

[bunjay]

In terms of zone entries, Dion is amongst the best. He is a pretty elite puck rusher despite not being a very creative partner.

Phaneuf is incredibly awkward with the puck at speed. Combine that with his slow acceleration and average-or-worse agility. There's a reason he's never the one carrying the puck into the zone on the PP.

Last night you saw maybe the best puck rusher in the league playing for the other team. Phaneuf isn't even the second best puck carrying defenseman on his own team.

 

[bunjay]

Solid game from our captain tonight. Hardly noticable tonight.
That was a real beatiful finish. Guy has hands!

Scores one, allows two, great game!

 

[Kelly23]

Perceiving things objectively? Okay.

Leafs 5 on 5 GF/GA with Phaneuf on the ice: 1.46
Leafs 5 on 5 GF/GA with Phaneuf off the ice: 0.81

Objectively, the Leafs are a dominant 5 on 5 team when Phaneuf, er, 'The Pylon' is on the ice, and a lottery-pick caliber 5 on 5 team when he isn't.

I'll take my chances with the guy who tilts the ice in his team's favour when he's on the ice, regardless of what armchair scouts on the internet subjectively think.

If Phanuef is on your top pair he is playing on the ice at the same time as the Kessel line I would assume, not when your 4th/3rd lines are on the ice, I would say it has to do more with Kessel being a very good forward, Dion only has 26 points thats not a whole bunch.

 

[Gallagbi]

Scores one, allows two, great game!

He was on for one GA yesterday. Franson and Ranger were on the PK for the Kings 2nd goal.

 

[crump]

Nice goal last night. As for Norris? Not even close. Keith is going to get it. Has the points and defensive numbers. Phaneuf needs to score more for Norris talk.

 

[moonbal]

Dion's not terrible but he's not great. Definitely not worthy of Norris.
He proves time and time again he has mediocre hockey sense, awful balance (seriously he gets knocked down like a 3yr old toddler).

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

If Phanuef is on your top pair he is playing on the ice at the same time as the Kessel line I would assume, not when your 4th/3rd lines are on the ice, I would say it has to do more with Kessel being a very good forward, Dion only has 26 points thats not a whole bunch.

Watch games

 

[Mess]

Leafs have had their best success as a team when they dress 7 Dman and that allows Phaneuf to play less minutes.

That bodes well for the team, but reflects on Phaneuf in regards to Norris or being among the best at the defense position.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I like Dion and I think he'll pick up some votes, but he's not really in contention to actually win it. He's good, great even, but not the league's premier defender, whether the criteria is offensive or defensive he's just not 'the best'...

All defenders who play heavy minutes against the opposition's best get caught out of position, flat footed, turn the puck over, etc... Dion plays extremely difficult minutes and quite honestly has a weak supporting cast, I'd be terrified to see how we'd fare giving those minutes to the Fransons, Gardiners, etc.

We're lucky to have him, and he's highly under appreciated, but no, he's not 'the best'

This is spot on, a terrific post. Bringing back this post just gives posters today how most felt on Mar 12, 2014 when his play just started to slide.

I encourage everyone to read this thread, most posters say Dion is not in contention for the Norris Trophy. I repeat not in contention, but he was having a good enough season to get a few votes.

The point is, he was not bad all year as some are saying.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

You're overvaluing Quality of competition and undervaluing quality of teammates.

Dion plays tough QoC but its nullfied by the fact that his QoT is quite good. (17th among D) (He plays mostly with Kessel/JVR/Gunnar),

Oh and he sucks against the "tough comp" he plays against. Just because hes misutilized doesn't make him good defensively or even near his contract values him at.

And he sucks against Average comp as well. So theres that.

http://hockey-graphs.com/2014/01/06...-players-stats-toronto-maple-leafs-d-edition/

Phaneuf sucks, Gardiner is good. The in depth stats say this, because looking at QoC alone is not a good indicator for a player. Put it in perspective, like this blog post does, and you'll see why Phaneuf is not good defensively.

 

[skeddie]

Phaneuf will never get consideration unless you see him being better than

Weber
Chara
Subban
Keith
Doughty
Karlsson

.... all at the same time.

 

[Maccer]

Dion for Norris!!!

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

Phaneuf will never get consideration unless you see him being better than

Weber
Chara
Subban
Keith
Doughty
Karlsson

.... all at the same time.

IT'S A SEXTUPLE DION!!!

 

[diceman934]

You're overvaluing Quality of competition and undervaluing quality of teammates.

Dion plays tough QoC but its nullfied by the fact that his QoT is quite good. (17th among D) (He plays mostly with Kessel/JVR/Gunnar),

Oh and he sucks against the "tough comp" he plays against. Just because hes misutilized doesn't make him good defensively or even near his contract values him at.

And he sucks against Average comp as well. So theres that.

http://hockey-graphs.com/2014/01/06...-players-stats-toronto-maple-leafs-d-edition/

Phaneuf sucks, Gardiner is good. The in depth stats say this, because looking at QoC alone is not a good indicator for a player. Put it in perspective, like this blog post does, and you'll see why Phaneuf is not good defensively.

Thanks again for posting this....it is a must read for everyone.