How long will David Quinn be coach?

[SJSharksfan39]

I was on the Fire Quinn bandwagon, but after reading here and listening to 32 Thoughts about it today, I know it was going to be a hard year and the Sharks are going to be bad and lose. What I worry about is the culture of this team. This should be a proud Hockey team, with a lot of history and a fanbase that was loyal. What bothers me about this year's team isn't the winning or losing. It's the lack of effort and just not caring. The thing with Kappo and the Canucks being the ones who helped him while the Sharks skated away produces a toxic culture that should never define this team. I'm not saying play like you're going to win the Cup. I'm just saying be proud of the jersey you play for and give a little more effort and just team dynamic. I'm glad Grier did what he did today.

As for Quinn, no I no longer think he should be fired, but I still think he should do everything in his power to protect William Eklund. The more this team loses, the more I worry his confidence will shatter and the more he would probably want out. If this team is rebuilding, it needs to do whatever it can to protect the future investments.

As for what was said on 32 thoughts today, I watched the Ducks game last night (And admittedly I was rooting for the Ducks and not ashamed to admit it) and the atmosphere at Honda Center was electric. Maybe the Sharks will not be electric, but give the fans a reason for hope. The Anaheim fans saw a lot of hope last night. The Sharks fans who pay the ticket and is being asked for patience deserves something in return, even if it's a small thing.

 

[exchequer]

The thing with Kappo and the Canucks being the ones who helped him while the Sharks skated away produces a toxic culture that should never define this team.

Grier's had more than a year to reshape the culture. He's traded away fan favorites. He's traded away a Norris winner. There's nothing that indicates he has been prevented in any way to bring in those who can contribute to culture or to jettison those who detract from the team.

However, the players are supposed to gel together under the coach - not the GM. And it's a lot easier to fire one guy (the coach) over the whole team.

I don't get the empty threats Grier alluded to in his press conference. He's going to make changes? Changes he should be making like cutting Vlasic? He's going to trade away Hoffman and Duclair? Promote the entire Cuda team and demote the big league players? Trading Eklund?

The only realistic thing left at his disposal is firing the coach and the fact that he hasn't done it yet means he's mainly just all talk (except for his dogged refusal to acknowledge a rebuild).

 

[Skeksis25]

I think we are just at the lowest possible point right now. Not only is the team basically unwatchable, we have essentially one guy that we care about watching and succeeding. The previous game when Duclair and MacDonald scored, my reaction was literally, "Was Eklund involved?". And when the answer is no, they might as well not have scored. I am utterly not invested in the majority of this roster. Which probably is what makes it somewhat watchable. I don't care that they get embarrassed, I don't care that the coach looks bad, that the players feel bad. All I hope is somehow all this is toughening up Eklund.

Maybe next year, or even later this year, if/when we have guys like Mukh, Gushchin, Bystedt etc, there will be more reasons to get invested.

 

[timorous me]

I think we are just at the lowest possible point right now. Not only is the team basically unwatchable, we have essentially one guy that we care about watching and succeeding. The previous game when Duclair and MacDonald scored, my reaction was literally, "Was Eklund involved?". And when the answer is no, they might as well not have scored. I am utterly not invested in the majority of this roster. Which probably is what makes it somewhat watchable. I don't care that they get embarrassed, I don't care that the coach looks bad, that the players feel bad. All I hope is somehow all this is toughening up Eklund.

Maybe next year, or even later this year, if/when we have guys like Mukh, Gushchin, Bystedt etc, there will be more reasons to get invested.

Yeah, pretty much the hardest kind of team for fans to get invested in or excited by is one made up mostly of over-the-hill veterans and castoffs with whom the fans have no connection. Young guys, even if not all world-beaters, who play with some enthusiasm and offer up hope for a future that they're a part of. Let's hope that's something we see more of next year.

I'll admit to being pretty chill over all these losses, but I feel like you can have the worst record in the league without being a complete laughingstock, and what bothers me is just how embarrassing things have gotten these past two home games.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Yeah, pretty much the hardest kind of team for fans to get invested in or excited by is one made up mostly of over-the-hill veterans and castoffs with whom the fans have no connection. Young guys, even if not all world-beaters, who play with some enthusiasm and offer up hope for a future that they're a part of. Let's hope that's something we see more of next year.

I'll admit to being pretty chill over all these losses, but I feel like you can have the worst record in the league without being a complete laughingstock, and what bothers me is just how embarrassing things have gotten these past two home games.

This is just the cost of rebuilding and moving ahead on that path. We need to accept that being a laughingstock and getting embarrassed is going to happen as part of that. It's temporary and not permanent but it may take a while. At least they will shed a lot of dead weight at the end of this season. Their blue line will still be pretty bad with limited options for improvement but they're doing a pretty decent job loading up with forwards with some future value either in the lineup or as a trade chip. I'm only concerned about how Grier decides to use cap space in the offseason when they're still going to be rebuilding until they find more competitive options on the blue line. A lot of his filler acquisitions have been flops like Kunin and Lindblom among others to varying degrees. The lack of short term vision on the blue line is an issue when it comes to transitioning from a team that is just eating a year because of cap concerns to a developing team.

 

[Hodge]

As for what was said on 32 thoughts today, I watched the Ducks game last night (And admittedly I was rooting for the Ducks and not ashamed to admit it) and the atmosphere at Honda Center was electric. Maybe the Sharks will not be electric, but give the fans a reason for hope. The Anaheim fans saw a lot of hope last night. The Sharks fans who pay the ticket and is being asked for patience deserves something in return, even if it's a small thing.

Anaheim started rebuilding at least 3 if not 4 years before we did. We can't expect to be anywhere near their level this season. The current state of the Sharks franchise is entirely the fault of the delusional incompetent front office that refused to even acknowledge we needed a rebuild, let alone take any steps towards initiating one, before the current regime took over.

 

[TheBigDrunkPanda]

I think we are just at the lowest possible point right now. Not only is the team basically unwatchable, we have essentially one guy that we care about watching and succeeding. The previous game when Duclair and MacDonald scored, my reaction was literally, "Was Eklund involved?". And when the answer is no, they might as well not have scored. I am utterly not invested in the majority of this roster. Which probably is what makes it somewhat watchable. I don't care that they get embarrassed, I don't care that the coach looks bad, that the players feel bad. All I hope is somehow all this is toughening up Eklund.

Maybe next year, or even later this year, if/when we have guys like Mukh, Gushchin, Bystedt etc, there will be more reasons to get invested.

Oh I think it’s about to get lower, much, much, lower

 

[TheBigDrunkPanda]

We have three centers worth a damn in the farm system - Bordeleau, Bystedt, and Smith. Of those three, two likely top out as 3Cs and the other could wind up on the wing. Minimum 50% chance apiece the older two bust, somewhat lower for Smith but still viable.

We have four wingers worth a damn in the farm system - Gushchin, Lund, Musty, and Halttunen. None of them project as first liners, and all of them have greater than 50% chance of busting.

Defensemen worth a damn, we have four - Mukhamadullin, Thrun, Havelid, Cagnoni. 50% chance the first two bust, more than 50% for the latter two.

Everyone else is a lottery ticket, including all the goalies.

By role, we have:

F1 ("puck carriers") - Bystedt
F2 ("playmakers") - Bordeleau, Smith, Musty
F3 ("finishers") - Gushchin, Lund, Halttunen
Depth Fwds - Robins, Cardwell

Offensive Defs - Havelid, Cagnoni
Two-Way Defs - Mukhamadullin, Furlong
Defensive Defs - Thrun

Goalies - Chrona, Makiniemi, Romanov

At least half of these will bust entirely, half of the rest will disappoint. We might get one depth player out of the guys not mentioned. If everything goes well, we get one impact player and two reasonably good players out of this entire bunch. Applied to the whole farm system, one impact player (like Meier or Kane or good Vlasic), two middle of the lineup guys (like Donskoi and Braun), one to two decent depth guys (like Goodrow and Dillon).

They will be added to a hopeful roster of impactful Eklund and Hertl (aging out of being impactful), Couture (now a middle of the lineup guy if not depth or worse), and maybe a couple of depth guys.

This team needs literally everything to be added to the farm system, and we start looking at filling specific roles (like some more finishers or offensive defensemen) later. Just pick BPA and don't try to overthink things. I'd rather pick someone who is a carbon-copy of our best prospect than someone who "fills a specific need" but projects to be a full step below at his peak.

I do also agree that, after the high picks, we should be trying to spread our picks around various roles and positions, so that if we do get hits on our lottery tickets they will hopefully not be concentrated in one area. Ultimately, though, this won't be much of a concern - hitting on two forwards with similar skillsets drafted after pick #100, and not a forward and a defenseman, is just fine.

Man I thought I was negative lol I disagree on some of this, I think Muk/Thrun on a team with depth are going to be pretty solid second pair.

Bordeleau I’m ready to write off, to soon to tell with musty but he seems like he will make a great 3rd line energy guy. Smith I wasn’t sold on at the draft Andi I’m still not sold on with his current NCAA start, at best the sharks are looking at a Legwand caliber player but if he can’t get his foot speed up he’ll likely be a bust.

Gushchin is a pavel bure red line blue line circle skater without the speed or finish so he’ll wash out. None of the goalie prospects stand out to me at all.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Man I thought I was negative lol I disagree on some of this, I think Muk/Thrun on a team with depth are going to be pretty solid second pair.

Bordeleau I’m ready to write off, to soon to tell with musty but he seems like he will make a great 3rd line energy guy. Smith I wasn’t sold on at the draft Andi I’m still not sold on with his current NCAA start, at best the sharks are looking at a Legwand caliber player but if he can’t get his foot speed up he’ll likely be a bust.

Gushchin is a pavel bure red line blue line circle skater without the speed or finish so he’ll wash out. None of the goalie prospects stand out to me at all.

There's a pretty large gap between Pavel Bure and washing out that Gushchin can make an NHL career out of.

 

[exchequer]

Oh I think it’s about to get lower, much, much, lower

The lowest point is probably when even Sharks fans start to think the 1st round prospects are terrible. Trade Eklund maybe?

 

[exchequer]

The previous game when Duclair and MacDonald scored, my reaction was literally, "Was Eklund involved?". And when the answer is no, they might as well not have scored. I am utterly not invested in the majority of this roster. Which probably is what makes it somewhat watchable. I don't care that they get embarrassed, I don't care that the coach looks bad, that the players feel bad. All I hope is somehow all this is toughening up Eklund.

Realistically, Eklund might be gone by the time the window opens. Sharks did him no favors by sending him back to Sweden and pushing back RFA by one year. With the Vlasic money off the books, I'd want a return the favor if I was his agent.

 

[Hodge]

Realistically, Eklund might be gone by the time the window opens. Sharks did him no favors by sending him back to Sweden and pushing back RFA by one year. With the Vlasic money off the books, I'd want a return the favor if I was his agent.

Eklund needs to actually produce in order to do that.

 

[TheBigDrunkPanda]

There's a pretty large gap between Pavel Bure and washing out that Gushchin can make an NHL career out of.

I’m saying he floats like Bure did, between the blue line and center ice, he only enters the defensive zone by accident. He’s not in his zip code talent wise

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Realistically, Eklund might be gone by the time the window opens. Sharks did him no favors by sending him back to Sweden and pushing back RFA by one year. With the Vlasic money off the books, I'd want a return the favor if I was his agent.

Possibly. One would hope that he produces to a point to warrant a healthy return if that's the case assuming that the Sharks still aren't competitive by then. Ideally, Eklund is one we'd sign to eight years after his ELC so that we maximize his prime window then let him go when he's 31. Chances are though that both sides won't be willing to do max term.

I’m saying he floats like Bure did, between the blue line and center ice, he only enters the defensive zone by accident. He’s not in his zip code talent wise

Given what I've seen of him, that's an exaggeration. He's not terribly involved defensively but most wingers aren't. Timo Meier was hardly a defensive presence but is doing just fine carving out a career for himself without being in Bure's zip code talent wise.

 

[coooldude]

Just read the article from Sheng re the MG meeting. The org has no clue how to fix this other than to compete more and compete harder. As overrated as Ferraro is, the guy competes - and he’s one of many who have been competing and are willing to compete.

The team is just flat out bad and it shouldn’t be surprising there will be at least one or two 10-1 drubbings this year. Odds are it doesn’t happen back to back but it certainly can happen.

Grier is saying what he needs to say publicly to give the guys air cover. There's not much he an do and he knows it, but the team also can play smarter (for some like Ferraro - he's trying too hard and making dumb plays outside any system or structure) and harder (for some like Vlasic).

I think another post you made said "the org is directionless." That's pretty clearly not true. Grier has a direction, unfortunately step 1 was acknowledging the tire fire we were in and stripping down entirely for a full rebuild. The direction is through hell. We are in hell. Doesn't mean there's no idea how we're trying to get out of hell.

 

[coooldude]

Post game comment!

I'm really glad the guys responded to Grier and the general embarrassment of the weekend. Sounds like everyone circled the wagons on Quinn.

Tactically, I hate our defensive zone strategy, even in a game with effort and buy in. We give the perimeter and hope that someone makes a bad pass, ceding a ton of zone time. But against more skilled teams we're going to get carved open with quick, accurate passing or better shots from the point. A lot of our shot differential is from this passive d zone system. I guess Quinn is calculating that we're not good or fast enough to press the puck and instead wait for mistakes to pounce for the turnover. Just means we're facing the shooting gallery much of the game.

 

[gaucholoco3]

Post game comment!

I'm really glad the guys responded to Grier and the general embarrassment of the weekend. Sounds like everyone circled the wagons on Quinn.

Tactically, I hate our defensive zone strategy, even in a game with effort and buy in. We give the perimeter and hope that someone makes a bad pass, ceding a ton of zone time. But against more skilled teams we're going to get carved open with quick, accurate passing or better shots from the point. A lot of our shot differential is from this passive d zone system. I guess Quinn is calculating that we're not good or fast enough to press the puck and instead wait for mistakes to pounce for the turnover. Just means we're facing the shooting gallery much of the game.

I do like that Quinn doesn’t only run 1 system.

He developed a system to take advantage of a generational offensive defenseman and now this year a system that is the exact opposite with the worst defenseman in the league.

 

[67 others]

 

[Fan from AK]

Is this the right sport lol? Cowboys and Chargers eh?

Oren Koles and Len Barrie owned the Bolts and were called the cowboys.

 

[YUPPY]

Man I thought I was negative lol I disagree on some of this, I think Muk/Thrun on a team with depth are going to be pretty solid second pair.

Bordeleau I’m ready to write off, to soon to tell with musty but he seems like he will make a great 3rd line energy guy. Smith I wasn’t sold on at the draft Andi I’m still not sold on with his current NCAA start, at best the sharks are looking at a Legwand caliber player but if he can’t get his foot speed up he’ll likely be a bust.

Gushchin is a pavel bure red line blue line circle skater without the speed or finish so he’ll wash out. None of the goalie prospects stand out to me at all.

Smith current NCCA start is pretty good. What else do you want him to do? Some fans have really unrealistic expectations.

8 Games

5 Goals

7 assists

Averaging 1.5 point per game.

 

[coooldude]

Smith current NCCA start is pretty good. What else do you want him to do? Some fans have really unrealistic expectations.

8 Games

5 Goals

7 assists

Averaging 1.5 point per game.

Points aren't everything. He looks like a high IQ, very creative, high skill player that isn't particularly quick or strong or defensively minded. I'm still hopeful we get another franchise center to be 1C and Smith can be one of the best 2Cs in the league, who could be an okay 1C on a different team. But there is a chance he tops out at mediocre offensively minded 2C (or of course a true bust scenario).

The issue isn't with Smith for some folks, it's with Smith relative to Michkov, or fantilli/Carlsson in the no-win-streak universe.

 

[gaucholoco3]

Points aren't everything. He looks like a high IQ, very creative, high skill player that isn't particularly quick or strong or defensively minded. I'm still hopeful we get another franchise center to be 1C and Smith can be one of the best 2Cs in the league, who could be an okay 1C on a different team. But there is a chance he tops out at mediocre offensively minded 2C (or of course a true bust scenario).

The issue isn't with Smith for some folks, it's with Smith relative to Michkov, or fantilli/Carlsson in the no-win-streak universe.

I think Smith was universally thought of as a worse prospect that those 3. The problem is people can’t come to terms with the fact that none of those 3 were available to the Sharks so it’s like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Barrie22]

Points aren't everything. He looks like a high IQ, very creative, high skill player that isn't particularly quick or strong or defensively minded. I'm still hopeful we get another franchise center to be 1C and Smith can be one of the best 2Cs in the league, who could be an okay 1C on a different team. But there is a chance he tops out at mediocre offensively minded 2C (or of course a true bust scenario).

The issue isn't with Smith for some folks, it's with Smith relative to Michkov, or fantilli/Carlsson in the no-win-streak universe.

The only 1 that was realistic for the Sharks was Michkov, and he had his own book long version of drama that was attached to him. We do not even know if the Sharks were even allowed to interview him at the draft last year, so drafting him might not have even been realistic.

 

[coooldude]

The only 1 that was realistic for the Sharks was Michkov, and he had his own book long version of drama that was attached to him. We do not even know if the Sharks were even allowed to interview him at the draft last year, so drafting him might not have even been realistic.

Yep, I understand all that, i was just answering the question "what will be enough with Smith, what else can he do" and as we've covered elsewhere, there's nothing Smith can do about it, but if the 2023 draft stays as strong as it's started, he's always going to be seen as "the other guy" even if he was the best realistic pick available for the Sharks, even if everyone knew he was tier 3 after Bedard, Michkov / Carlsson, Fantilli. To be clear I believe that Michkov told us he wasn't interested in San Jose, but the debate (eg from Pinkfloyd) is his talent is so high that you draft him anyway and hope that he comes around or that you trade him for assets better than Smith.

My only point is that it's never going to be enough and there will always be a debate about him unless he vastly, vastly outperforms.

 

[Sendhelplease]

Points aren't everything. He looks like a high IQ, very creative, high skill player that isn't particularly quick or strong or defensively minded. I'm still hopeful we get another franchise center to be 1C and Smith can be one of the best 2Cs in the league, who could be an okay 1C on a different team. But there is a chance he tops out at mediocre offensively minded 2C (or of course a true bust scenario).

The issue isn't with Smith for some folks, it's with Smith relative to Michkov, or fantilli/Carlsson in the no-win-streak universe.

The thing with Smith is I don't think he will ever be Selke winner but I think he will provide defensive value to the team by simply having the puck all the time. I think he will develop a passable defensive game, he is simply too smart and by all accounts a hard worker not to improve on that IMO.