How Do You Rank Gretzky?

[Mothra]

You honestly don't know how I evaluate players yet the ratings are silly. That is an absurd thought process.

I remember you posting your process when you first started posting here....we discussed it then and I dont see that anything has changed....so in short, yes I do know how you do it...I just dont agree that its accurate enough to call it the end all be all. When someone posts their opinion, and it doesnt line up with your list, you point to your list and call them wrong..in so many words

how do you factor in intangibles? clutch play and leadership? Or is that not very important

Every player gets a fair shake the way I evaluate players. Yzerman is #43 on my list, Park is #44 and Langway is #53.

Yzerman at #43 eh...thats a fair shake?

 

[BNHL]

you know, i know a guy who would have been the greatest player of all time, he would blown Gretzky away, if he wouldn't have quit playing junior to play for the local senior team because he just wanted to be a hometown hero. oh yeah, and if he wasn't a drunk.

Although his incredible goal scoring ability undoubtedly opened up passing lanes and vice versa. If he couldn't score,the pass would be defended more easily.

 

[WingsFan95]

Seems you don't care about assists.

Or goals.

Or points.

Or points-per-game.

Or Hart Trophies.

Or Pearsons Trophies.

Or Art Ross Trophies.

Or Conn Smythes.

Or Single Season goal records.

Or single-season assist records.

Or single season point records.

Or 53-game point streaks.

Or fast to 50 goals in a season.

Or post-season goals.

Or post-season assists.

Or post-season points.

Or post-season points-per-game.

Or... well... pretty much anything that can possibly be measured when it comes to hockey.

But Gretzky was small... yea... didn't even belong in the NHL. Forget about everything he accomplished... he was short and skinny so clearly couldn't be the best. Heck, nobody has raised ANY valid issues that off-set him being short. And skinny. He might have every record imaginable and dominated like no other, but he was a little guy. He shouldn't have played in the NHL.

Short and skinny trumps all.

I care about goals per game averages, and I do care about Conn Smythes, as I remember Lemieux won just as many as Gretzky, 2.

I care about points, but to an extent, if a player has as many or more goals than assist or if a player has 25% or less more assists than goals, then I care.

If you're looking at guys like Joe Thornton who has twice as many assists as goals and in recent seasons 3-4 times more assists than goals, I don't put as much attention to points.

Defencemen are a different story, they're not relied on to score.

And Bobby Orr leading the league in points is just.......well just DAMN good.

And Gretzky winning all those Hart Trophies, well, hasn't it basically become a Trophy for most points???? Hasn't it????? I think it has, if Gretzky was so important to the Oiler franchise then why didn't that franchise just implode after his departure.....did they implode??

I know what you're thinking, the Penguins didn't implode after Lemieux left.

From 97/98 until 99/00 the Penguins didn't make it past the Quarterfinals in the playoffs and in the 00/01 and 01/02 seasons, where Mario was limited to games played, the Pens made the Conference Final, in Mario first season back, his second he was injury ridden and the Pens failed to make the playoffs.

Now let's look at Gretzky's Kings, they sucked even WITH HIM!

He was only 27 when he landed on the Kings in 88.

From 88/89 until Gretzky's departure in 95/96 the Kings made the playoffs 5 straight seasons, only once did they go beyond the Quarterfinals ( twice they got SWEPT in the Quarterfinals ).

And the Kings had more than Gretzky on their team.

The Penguins have gotten to the Conference Finals only 4 times in their history, all with Mario.

The Oilers, a year after trading Gretzky, made 3 straight Conference Finals, winning the Cup once more.

With Bobby Orr, after his last full/semi-full season with the Bruins after 74/75, the Bruins got to back to back Finals in 76/77 and 77/78, actually....the Bruins parted ways with Esposito as well......they didn't need either guys.....kinda odd....

Anyway, Penguins without Lemieux were worthless.

 

[Up the Irons]

your grasping at straws. there are stretches when Wendal Clarke had a higher PPG average than everyone, in October.

how can you give more credit to goals than assists (although 99 had the most of both)? there are just as more tap-in goals after a great pass as there are great goals after a consequential pass. someone has to gain the zone (99 just happens to be the best ever at this, in fact, he changed the game by making 'gaining the zone' preferable to 'completing the rush').

i remember when Gretzky was first tearing up the league. all the Lafleur and Bossy/Trottier fans hated him. many still do. they just couldn't accept that someone could outshine their heroes to such a degree.

behind every Gretzky hater is a guy in denial. so they look for cheeze-ball examples to support their hero. like Mario had more points on back-to-back games, on the road, before the all-star break, under a full moon.

keep looking. i know who scored, assist and won more.

 

[the_speedster]

your grasping at straws. there are stretches when Wendal Clarke had a higher PPG average than everyone, in October.

how can you give more credit to goals than assists (although 99 had the most of both)? there are just as more tap-in goals after a great pass as there are great goals after a consequential pass. someone has to gain the zone (99 just happens to be the best ever at this, in fact, he changed the game by making 'gaining the zone' preferable to 'completing the rush').

i remember when Gretzky was first tearing up the league. all the Lafleur and Bossy/Trottier fans hated him. many still do. they just couldn't accept that someone could outshine their heroes to such a degree.

behind every Gretzky hater is a guy in denial. so they look for cheeze-ball examples to support their hero. like Mario had more points on back-to-back games, on the road, before the all-star break, under a full moon.

keep looking. i know who scored, assist and won more.

great post!

 

[HotPie]

I remember you posting your process when you first started posting here....we discussed it then and I dont see that anything has changed....so in short, yes I do know how you do it...I just dont agree that its accurate enough to call it the end all be all. When someone posts their opinion, and it doesnt line up with your list, you point to your list and call them wrong..in so many words

how do you factor in intangibles? clutch play and leadership? Or is that not very important



Yzerman at #43 eh...thats a fair shake?

That would be style, not substance. Shame on you.

IMO, one of the biggest flaws in his methodology is the intrinsic bias in his arguments as to what constitutes "style" and "substance". The primary goal of any game (and yes, Hockey is a game) is to win.

Substance is, therefore, whatever it takes to win.

 

[tomi2]

Yzerman at #43 eh...thats a fair shake?

I don't think that's too far from the truth. IMO he belongs somewhere in the mid 30's.

 

[tomi2]

Lemieux is the best ever.

I strongly disagree with that. I think Howe should clearly be ahead of him. Two years ago I also had Lemieux ahead of Howe, but now that I have learned a bit from the history of hockey, there's no way I can justify putting him ahead of Howe.

 

[McDeepika]

This goes back to my point bout Gretzky not getting the same physical treatment as any regular NHL player.

Please show me a good hit on Gretzky, please.

I know the guy lost a few teeth but that's not special.

why would a team avoid hitting Gretzky if it would help them?

But let's just say that it is true, why would the league pick him to be the Golden boy. Why did they love him so much? I mean Mike Bossy is a better player then Gretzky is. Why wouldn't they just make the no touch rule for Bossy. Hell he could have probaly gone on to score 100 goals seasons. I guess the league just picked Gretzky's name out of a hat.

 

[Up the Irons]

99wasnot, let me ask you this: how did Mario change the game? what news skills or tactics did he bring to hockey? what standard was he ever the first the reach?

this is bugging me, because i'm a huge Mario fan, especially when he came back and led Canada to gold in Salt Lake. he is probably the greatest 'one-on-one' talent ever, or at least that i ever saw. but i rank 99 higher for obvious reasons. you do not need to hate Wayne just because he was the best.

 

[JCD]

I care about goals per game averages, and I do care about Conn Smythes, as I remember Lemieux won just as many as Gretzky, 2.

I care about points, but to an extent, if a player has as many or more goals than assist or if a player has 25% or less more assists than goals, then I care.

If you're looking at guys like Joe Thornton who has twice as many assists as goals and in recent seasons 3-4 times more assists than goals, I don't put as much attention to points.

Defencemen are a different story, they're not relied on to score.

And Bobby Orr leading the league in points is just.......well just DAMN good.

And Gretzky winning all those Hart Trophies, well, hasn't it basically become a Trophy for most points???? Hasn't it????? I think it has, if Gretzky was so important to the Oiler franchise then why didn't that franchise just implode after his departure.....did they implode??

I know what you're thinking, the Penguins didn't implode after Lemieux left.

From 97/98 until 99/00 the Penguins didn't make it past the Quarterfinals in the playoffs and in the 00/01 and 01/02 seasons, where Mario was limited to games played, the Pens made the Conference Final, in Mario first season back, his second he was injury ridden and the Pens failed to make the playoffs.

Now let's look at Gretzky's Kings, they sucked even WITH HIM!

He was only 27 when he landed on the Kings in 88.

From 88/89 until Gretzky's departure in 95/96 the Kings made the playoffs 5 straight seasons, only once did they go beyond the Quarterfinals ( twice they got SWEPT in the Quarterfinals ).

And the Kings had more than Gretzky on their team.

The Penguins have gotten to the Conference Finals only 4 times in their history, all with Mario.

The Oilers, a year after trading Gretzky, made 3 straight Conference Finals, winning the Cup once more.

With Bobby Orr, after his last full/semi-full season with the Bruins after 74/75, the Bruins got to back to back Finals in 76/77 and 77/78, actually....the Bruins parted ways with Esposito as well......they didn't need either guys.....kinda odd....

Anyway, Penguins without Lemieux were worthless.

There is just no nice way to say this: you are completely clueless.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I have any idea...

Let's stop feeding the troll...