How Do You Rank Gretzky?

[Stonefly]

My flaw is that I respond to indignation with more of the same...


The thing is, I actually like Orr. You guys just make it hard for people to like the man due to the content of your posts.

Wow you are something else. I didn't mention anything about Orr. Not a thing. You brought him into it.
You are overly sensitive when it comes to Gretzky.

Originally when I responded to you I was not being indignant. I even put a winking smilie after it so you'd know i was just kidding with you a bit.

Have a scotch and relax.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Wow you are something else. I didn't mention anything about Orr. Not a thing. You brought him into it.
You are overly sensitive when it comes to Gretzky.

Originally when I responded to you I was not being indignant. I even put a winking smilie after it so you'd know i was just kidding with you a bit.

Have a scotch and relax.

Yeah, I guess I was getting a little carried away - I completely missed the smiley. I think my angst is more directed towards irodptl than yourself, willus. Sorry for capturing you in the same net.

To be honest, I just purchased the new Best of Bobby Orr DVD and I was impressed with what I saw.

 

[Mothra]

My flaw is that I respond to indignation with more of the same...


The thing is, I actually like Orr. You guys just make it hard for people to like the man due to the content of your posts.

if your like/dislike for a player is at all tied to what posters on a message board say or think....then there is a problem in your objectiveness on all hockey matters

to me thats your flaw...

 

[Stonefly]

Yeah, I guess I was getting a little carried away - I completely missed the smiley. I think my angst is more directed towards irodptl than yourself, willus. Sorry for capturing you in the same net.

To be honest, I just purchased the new Best of Bobby Orr DVD and I was impressed with what I saw.

No worries oggy doggy.

There is a new BOBO DVD? I have one that was originally made in the early 90's I think. Is there a new one out?
I'm happy to hear you watched it and were impressed.
I have a Boston/Toronto game from 1971 I transferred to DVD. If you are interested I could mail you a copy. It's far more impressive when you see an entire game and then get an idea of how much of it he controlled.

 

[bishop12]

I think Mario was the best player ever, Gretzky just had the best career.

 

[the_speedster]

I think Mario was the best player ever, Gretzky just had the best career.

damn..... well you have me convinced!

 

[WingsFan95]

'Please show me a good hit on Gretzky, please.'

there aren't any because: 1. players were scared to commit themselves and end up looking bad as that proved to be the result THOUSANDS of times. 2. the opponents, themselves, were fans of 99 and didn't want to be the one who hurt him (save Suter and has received death threats ever since). 3. young players were in absolute AWE of 99 and wouldn't dare hit him.

as I stated early. he had 'IT'

Yup, and this is the only defense I keep getting.

Nobody will ever change my mind on who is the greatest, it's Lemieux for me and I see no signs of anyone bettering him.

But by all means I could be budged to put Gretzky as my #2.

But I have yet to get convincing arguments.

All I get is career stats, which considering I don't care about assists, I care about goals and Gretzky scored 894 in 1400+ games and as I keep saying wasn't physically pushed and the only argument I get against that is like the ones above.

 

[WingsFan95]

Some good clip I found on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac_NYeIYRzQ

 

[Mothra]

Some good clip I found on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac_NYeIYRzQ

too bad their isnt a youtube clip of the much smaller Bobby Gould one-punching Mario into the hospital...after 66 started the fight no less

 

[WingsFan95]

too bad their isnt a youtube clip of the much smaller Bobby Gould one-punching Mario into the hospital...after 66 started the fight no less

Upload it yourself.

That's what I do when I want a clip displayed on youtube.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Oh I forgot to mention, my biggest issue with Gretzky is he didn't belong in the NHL in the first place, he was never physically strong enough to be in the NHL, the guy was always protected and like Gilmour ( although Gilmour was physically strong enough ) there was suddenly this " no touch " rule.

Some games I've watched just annoy me how all the defencemen just go back trying to get the puck away from Gretzky whereas for other players they're not afraid to check them.

Lemieux was so fun to watch he could score a goal and lay out a guy in the same shift.

I for one respect players who dish out hits and play physically strong, the game was made for that, that's why the " new " NHL ever since the lockout is sometimes depressing for me.

the best scorer of all time did not belong in the nhl? That's my new sig haha

 

[Mothra]

Upload it yourself.

That's what I do when I want a clip displayed on youtube.

Its not like I collect VHS tapes from 80's hockey games.....its something that those of us who have been watching hockey saw when it happened.....


but....

"Gould is perhaps best remembered for his famous March 20, 1987 fight with Mario Lemieux. Giving up 6 inches and 25 lbs, Gould ended up breaking Lemieux's jaw with a solid right uppercut. Lemieux spent the night at George Washington University Hospital. "The first thing that came to mind when he said, `Let's go,' was that I could get him off the ice for five minutes," Gould said. "I never thought about hurting him." Lemieux would not fight again in the NHL for another 9 years"



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Gould_(ice_hockey)


EDIT: I do have a pic of Mario being carried off the ice on my laptop at work, ill look for it next week...used to be my avatar here

 

[BNHL]

No worries oggy doggy.

There is a new BOBO DVD? I have one that was originally made in the early 90's I think. Is there a new one out?
I'm happy to hear you watched it and were impressed.
I have a Boston/Toronto game from 1971 I transferred to DVD. If you are interested I could mail you a copy. It's far more impressive when you see an entire game and then get an idea of how much of it he controlled.

Could it be just the digitally remastered version of the original, now on DVD?

 

[Ogopogo*]

if your like/dislike for a player is at all tied to what posters on a message board say or think....then there is a problem in your objectiveness on all hockey matters

to me thats your flaw...

Actually, I am completely objective in my hockey ratings & evaluations. What players I like or dislike has no bearing on how I rate them.

 

[Ogopogo*]

No worries oggy doggy.

There is a new BOBO DVD? I have one that was originally made in the early 90's I think. Is there a new one out?
I'm happy to hear you watched it and were impressed.
I have a Boston/Toronto game from 1971 I transferred to DVD. If you are interested I could mail you a copy. It's far more impressive when you see an entire game and then get an idea of how much of it he controlled.

It probably is a re-released version of the one from the early 90s - it seems to have a 90s "feel" to it.

That game might be interesting to see.

 

[Wooty]

Nobody will ever change my mind on who is the greatest

Why are you participating on a message board? I don't understand why you would even care what we think and why are you so determined to make us care what you think.

 

[Mothra]

Actually, I am completely objective in my hockey ratings & evaluations. What players I like or dislike has no bearing on how I rate them.

as ive said before....your ratings are pretty silly. If I recall you factor in pretty heavily post season all-star teams and awards. These are a collection of peoples opinions....just like these days, they are always (or at least often) up for debate. How can I guy like Yzerman for example get a fair shake...sure, he was top 5 in scoring a lot but he played in an era with the two best players ever...not only just at his position...how about Brad Park...or defensive players like Langway. Sure they get some sort of recognition in whatever formula you use but how is that accurate enough to consider your calculations as fact and the end all be all to these discusions

I honestly dont know how you can evaluate players you have never actually seen play....checking out videos is not the same as watching them on a regular basis during their time

 

[Up the Irons]

'All I get is career stats, which considering I don't care about assists, I care about goals and Gretzky scored 894 in 1400+ games and as I keep saying wasn't physically pushed and the only argument I get against that is like the ones above.'

oh, you don't care about assists, huh. I suppose you don't care about Stanely cups or Hart trophies won, either. well, I don't care about highlight reel goals, only the amount. I don't care about hypothetical, dreamworld, scenarios, only actual accomplishments. All of Gretzky's assists actually occured, and an actual linemate actually scored, contributing in actually NHL competition; as opposed to 'would have if..."

the reason you keep getting the some arguments is because they are factual. there are dozens of quotes from actual NHL players stating that they could not hit 99 because of his quickness and anticipation. no player has every spoken of your 'conspiracy'. So, if you want to put more credence to hypothetical dreams and outright lies then go ahead, but don't expect to be taken seriously. meanwhile, i'll stick to the facts.

 

[Ogopogo*]

as ive said before....your ratings are pretty silly. If I recall you factor in pretty heavily post season all-star teams and awards. These are a collection of peoples opinions....just like these days, they are always (or at least often) up for debate. How can I guy like Yzerman for example get a fair shake...sure, he was top 5 in scoring a lot but he played in an era with the two best players ever...not only just at his position...how about Brad Park...or defensive players like Langway. Sure they get some sort of recognition in whatever formula you use but how is that accurate enough to consider your calculations as fact and the end all be all to these discusions

I honestly dont know how you can evaluate players you have never actually seen play....checking out videos is not the same as watching them on a regular basis during their time

You honestly don't know how I evaluate players yet the ratings are silly. That is an absurd thought process.

Every player gets a fair shake the way I evaluate players. Yzerman is #43 on my list, Park is #44 and Langway is #53.

My ratings are based on factual evidence of all NHL players that levels the playing field so era biases are not skewing the results. The fact is, if you base all time ratings on a poll of anyone currently alive, the results are going to be completely bogus. Nobody on the planet has enough knowledge of every player in the history of the game to put together a credible list. Make it worse and have several people vote. You simply get farther and farther from the truth.

The difference is that I use eyewitnesses that actually watched the players play - the major award balloting. Notice I did not say the award winners, I said I use the ballots. Finishing 2nd in Hart balloting is nearly as good as winning the trophy itself and I recognize players for that accomplishment. I recognize 3rd through 7th as well. What that means is NOBODY is buried behind anyone - all players get their due.

If a player doesn't score well on my system it is because he was not dominant during his time in the NHL. A combination of factual stats adjusted for era and real eyewitnesses is what I use. That is far superior to "eyeballing it" or having a vote, IMO.

 

[JCD]

Yup, and this is the only defense I keep getting.

Nobody will ever change my mind on who is the greatest, it's Lemieux for me and I see no signs of anyone bettering him.

But by all means I could be budged to put Gretzky as my #2.

But I have yet to get convincing arguments.

All I get is career stats, which considering I don't care about assists, I care about goals and Gretzky scored 894 in 1400+ games and as I keep saying wasn't physically pushed and the only argument I get against that is like the ones above.

Seems you don't care about assists.

Or goals.

Or points.

Or points-per-game.

Or Hart Trophies.

Or Pearsons Trophies.

Or Art Ross Trophies.

Or Conn Smythes.

Or Single Season goal records.

Or single-season assist records.

Or single season point records.

Or 53-game point streaks.

Or fast to 50 goals in a season.

Or post-season goals.

Or post-season assists.

Or post-season points.

Or post-season points-per-game.

Or... well... pretty much anything that can possibly be measured when it comes to hockey.

But Gretzky was small... yea... didn't even belong in the NHL. Forget about everything he accomplished... he was short and skinny so clearly couldn't be the best. Heck, nobody has raised ANY valid issues that off-set him being short. And skinny. He might have every record imaginable and dominated like no other, but he was a little guy. He shouldn't have played in the NHL.

Short and skinny trumps all.

 

[cupcrazyman]

1a)Gretzky
1b)Orr
2)put the rest in any order you like.

 

[Up the Irons]

well put, JCD, well put.

 

[Up the Irons]

you know, i know a guy who would have been the greatest player of all time, he would blown Gretzky away, if he wouldn't have quit playing junior to play for the local senior team because he just wanted to be a hometown hero. oh yeah, and if he wasn't a drunk.

 

[PerpetualTankYear]

gretzky is the best of all time, anyone that dissagrees figure this:

if he never scored a goal, not 1 goal ever, he would still have the record for most career points.

 

[Granlund2Pulkkinen*]

Greztky was a fantastic case of right-place right-time. Part of an amazing team he was a great player in a very very good era for his style

Lemieux is the best ever.