How Do You Rank Gretzky?

[WingsFan95]

I'll be honest I just thought what came to mind as my username.

But I really don't understand why there's this almost unanimous decision to have Gretzky be considered the best.

I hear most old timers say nobody will ever be better than the Rocket and I gotta admit they have a good point, he played for 17 full seasons, in his first he only played 16 games and he was the most prolific goal scorer of his era and nobody even compared to him in his day. Oh...he did win 10 Stanley Cups......

Then there's Bobby Hull, led the league in scoring for 7 seasons and then spend how many seasons in the WHA?

Bobby Orr....nuff said.

Mario Lemieux and Mike Bossy were the two most productive goal scorers with the highest Goals Per Game average.

And I haven't yet mentioned Gordie Howe or Mark Messier the longevity of their point production was pretty amazing.

In terms of players period, goalies also play hockey lol.

Click to read more...

 

[the_speedster]

ballsy.... rookie taking on a huge argument... ballsy.

Lemme end the argument for you quickly though (sorry)

99 was not the best hockey player ever.

messier/Bobby hull/orr and cournoyer were way faster

mcinnis had a bigger shot.

messier and bourque were more accurate
mario was more skilled


gretzky, however, was the greatest hockey player to ever exist.

no matter the haters or whiners, you can name people who were bigger, faster, even better hockey players..

no one alive can name a hockey player who achieved greatness higher than gretzky...


and you're welcome

 

[ck26]

On our top-100 list
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=486479
Gretzky got the nod.

In our all-time drafts
http://hfboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=181
Gretzky regularly goes 2nd (behidn Orr), but has been taken 1-3 in the past.

The knock against Bobby Orr is longevity. If he's healthy, he's the best. But Orr wasn't healthy.

Same knock against Lemieux and Bossy. Add in that both were one-dimensional offensive players.

Gordie Howe, Bobby Hull and Maurice Richard all have legitimate cases as the best of all time. They simply dominated all over the ice -- especially Howe. Hull didn't win enough Cups (largely the fault of Rocket's teammates) and that hurts. It's a little hard to gauge Rocket the individual however, because he had soooooo many great teammates.

Mark Messier is a joke ... anyone who rates him as Gretzky's equal is ignorant.

I put Gordie by himself up top.

Gretzky's in the 2nd group.

 

[Ogopogo*]

I'll be honest I just thought what came to mind as my username.

But I really don't understand why there's this almost unanimous decision to have Gretzky be considered the best.

I hear most old timers say nobody will ever be better than the Rocket and I gotta admit they have a good point, he played for 17 full seasons, in his first he only played 16 games and he was the most prolific goal scorer of his era and nobody even compared to him in his day. Oh...he did win 10 Stanley Cups......

Then there's Bobby Hull, led the league in scoring for 7 seasons and then spend how many seasons in the WHA?

Bobby Orr....nuff said.

Mario Lemieux and Mike Bossy were the two most productive goal scorers with the highest Goals Per Game average.

And I haven't yet mentioned Gordie Howe or Mark Messier the longevity of their point production was pretty amazing.

In terms of players period, goalies also play hockey lol.

I saw your screen name and immediately thought chooch was posting from his brother's house.

Gretzky simply accomplished more than any player in NHL history. He dominated the game to a greater degree for a longer time than any other player in the history of the game. The only player that is even close is Gordie Howe. Had Orr played 8 or 10 more seasons he would be in the discussion as well.

Degree of dominance and how long you dominate is what makes you great. Gretzky is above all in degree of dominance and length of time dominating.

 

[Hasbro]

1. Wayne
2. Brent

 

[the_speedster]

people need to get over this obsessive need to put wayne gretzky down in order to elevate their "favorites". Sad thing is EVERY one of them has refered to him as the greatest of all time. (mario, gordie, bobby....EVERY ONE!

 

[WingsFan95]

ballsy.... rookie taking on a huge argument... ballsy.

I've watched the NHL since 95, and like in the NFL I make up my lack of " being there " by watching various archive footage, not only the playoff games.

Gretzky played on in my opinion, THE most stacked team in NHL history, statistics show so many players on that team put good to great numbers.

Gretzky's transfer to L.A. where he re-united with Jari Kurri and Paul Coffey did not result in the same success.

I still give Gretzky his due, he's #6 on my list, but I don't and never will put longevity with great career stats over pure skill with great averages.

That's why in the NFL I rate guys like Terell Davis very high even though they never played good for long they played GREAT for long enough.

Not to say some great long run players shouldn't be given as much credibility but there's only a few that were really THAT great for that long, Howe being one.

And I will die by the quote " you can score a goal without an assist but you can never get an assist without a goal ".

Goals mean more to me, goals win games.

Bobby Hull and Phil Esposito were both legendary goal scorer in that they lead the LEAGUE in goals for so many seasons.

Bobby Hull may have led for a 10 seasons combined had he not moved away.

Bobby Orr regardless of his longevity got the Bruins two Cups, the lowly Boston Bruins! Bourque couldn't do that.

 

[Ogopogo*]

I've watched the NHL since 95, and like in the NFL I make up my lack of " being there " by watching various archive footage, not only the playoff games.

Gretzky played on in my opinion, THE most stacked team in NHL history, statistics show so many players on that team put good to great numbers.

Gretzky's transfer to L.A. where he re-united with Jari Kurri and Paul Coffey did not result in the same success.

I still give Gretzky his due, he's #6 on my list, but I don't and never will put longevity with great career stats over pure skill with great averages.

That's why in the NFL I rate guys like Terell Davis very high even though they never played good for long they played GREAT for long enough.

Not to say some great long run players shouldn't be given as much credibility but there's only a few that were really THAT great for that long, Howe being one.

And I will die by the quote " you can score a goal without an assist but you can never get an assist without a goal ".

Goals mean more to me, goals win games.

Bobby Hull and Phil Esposito were both legendary goal scorer in that they lead the LEAGUE in goals for so many seasons.

Bobby Hull may have led for a 10 seasons combined had he not moved away.

Bobby Orr regardless of his longevity got the Bruins two Cups, the lowly Boston Bruins! Bourque couldn't do that.

I think you better check your facts. Orr played on the most stacked offensive team in the history of the game. When you have 7 of the top 10 scorers in the league, that is stacked.

Gretzky broke the single season points record in his 2nd NHL season playing on a brutal team where the second leading scorer had 75 points.

You best check the prescrption on those glasses.

 

[Micd Up]

Boston of Orr's day was pretty stacked. Not lowly at all.

In fact a knock against Boston is that they should have won more. They kinda underachieved I think Espo himself admits this.

All players, Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr won cups on great teams. It's very hard to win on a terrible team.

 

[pitseleh]

And I will die by the quote " you can score a goal without an assist but you can never get an assist without a goal ".

Goals mean more to me, goals win games.

Bobby Hull and Phil Esposito were both legendary goal scorer in that they lead the LEAGUE in goals for so many seasons.

Bobby Hull may have led for a 10 seasons combined had he not moved away.

Bobby Orr regardless of his longevity got the Bruins two Cups, the lowly Boston Bruins! Bourque couldn't do that.

Gretzky led the league in goals five times (Espo did it 6 times and Hull 7 times - the only two players to do it more often).

 

[WingsFan95]

Oh I forgot to mention, my biggest issue with Gretzky is he didn't belong in the NHL in the first place, he was never physically strong enough to be in the NHL, the guy was always protected and like Gilmour ( although Gilmour was physically strong enough ) there was suddenly this " no touch " rule.

Some games I've watched just annoy me how all the defencemen just go back trying to get the puck away from Gretzky whereas for other players they're not afraid to check them.

Lemieux was so fun to watch he could score a goal and lay out a guy in the same shift.

I for one respect players who dish out hits and play physically strong, the game was made for that, that's why the " new " NHL ever since the lockout is sometimes depressing for me.

 

[TANK200]

Gretzky as #1 all time is far from unanimous. Orr has almost as much support for the number 1 overall position as The Great One. Even Howe and Lemieux are recognized by some individuals as the best player ever.

Personally, I consider Gretzky to be the best ever because of how he simply dominated the league. No player, not even Lemieux, has come close to the offensive production of Gretzky in the 1980s. He wasn't just winning scoring races and Hart trophies; he was winning them convincincly. In fact, he won the scoring title by 65+ points six times in the decade. Naturally, he slowed down as he aged, but even after he was traded away from the oilers, he still led the league in point 3 times and in assists 7 times. Only once in his career, in 1992-93 when he only played 45 games, was he not in the top 5 assist scorers in the league.

Gretzky often gets knocked for his defensive play, which I admit was somewhat weak. Some people tend, however to portray Gretzky as a player who just floated in the neutral zone and let his teammates do all the work. While he did not battle down low and in the corners often, he did what he needed to do. He made himself a good option for an outlet pass, and was able to generate a lot of chances on the transistion as a result. His play in the defensive end was consistent with the style of the Edmonton Oilers. It's hard to criticize Gretzky too much for defensive play when the all out attack style that the Oilers used was effective enough to earn the team 4 Stanley Cups during #99's tenure with the club.

Orr for me is a close second, for he is the only other player that I feel dominated on the same sort of level that Gretzky did. Winning Art Ross trophies while still being a very effective defensive player is an unbelievable feat. What hurts him in my rankings is that Phil Esposito managed to win 2 Hart trophies with Orr on his team, one of which was in the middle of Orr's prime. Whether or not people agree that Esposito should have won these, it remains that knowledgeable hockey minds at the time believe that Esposito was deserving of these awards.

I'm too young to have seen Orr play or to have even seen Gretzky at his best, so take this opinion for what it is worth. This is just the opinion that I have generated based on all that I have read, and old video that I have viewed.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Oh I forgot to mention, my biggest issue with Gretzky is he didn't belong in the NHL in the first place, he was never physically strong enough to be in the NHL, the guy was always protected and like Gilmour ( although Gilmour was physically strong enough ) there was suddenly this " no touch " rule.

Some games I've watched just annoy me how all the defencemen just go back trying to get the puck away from Gretzky whereas for other players they're not afraid to check them.

Lemieux was so fun to watch he could score a goal and lay out a guy in the same shift.

I for one respect players who dish out hits and play physically strong, the game was made for that, that's why the " new " NHL ever since the lockout is sometimes depressing for me.

Substance is worth more than style. You are letting your style preference cloud your judgement.

You really are chooch's brother, aren't you?

 

[Mothra]

Oh I forgot to mention, my biggest issue with Gretzky is he didn't belong in the NHL in the first place

what im about to say is somehting that I have never said, but is said daily here on HF....I never thought I would say it but here it goes

that has to be the most outrageous, ridiculous, and flat out ignorant comment I have ever seen on HF

EDIT:

Forgot to add....For players I have seen play I put Orr at the top, he controlled the game like no one else. I have a hard time separating 99 and 66....Gretzky had the greatest seasons and career...and while his career records seem totally unbeatable his season records have been seriously challenged...I'd have to put 99 ahead of 66 but its so close that its pretty much a toss up

 

[WingsFan95]

I think you better check your facts. Orr played on the most stacked offensive team in the history of the game. When you have 7 of the top 10 scorers in the league, that is stacked.

Gretzky broke the single season points record in his 2nd NHL season playing on a brutal team where the second leading scorer had 75 points.

You best check the prescrption on those glasses.

In the 85/86 season, Gretzky put up 215 total points, with 52 goals.

In that same season Jari Kurri put up 68 goals with 131 total points.

Mark Messier put up 84 points, in 63 games.

Glenn Anderson put up 102 points and Coffey registered 138 points.


Just so you know, 3 of the top 4 point scoring leaders were Oilers...the only one NOT an Oiler in the Top 4 that year?? Lemieux.

Oh sure you need a great team to win a Stanley Cup no question, but it also matters what a player does on mediocre to just good team.

Who did Lemieux have in 85/86??

 

[the_speedster]

I've watched the NHL since 95, and like in the NFL I make up my lack of " being there " by watching various archive footage, not only the playoff games.

Gretzky played on in my opinion, THE most stacked team in NHL history, statistics show so many players on that team put good to great numbers.

Gretzky's transfer to L.A. where he re-united with Jari Kurri and Paul Coffey did not result in the same success.

I still give Gretzky his due, he's #6 on my list, but I don't and never will put longevity with great career stats over pure skill with great averages.

That's why in the NFL I rate guys like Terell Davis very high even though they never played good for long they played GREAT for long enough.

Not to say some great long run players shouldn't be given as much credibility but there's only a few that were really THAT great for that long, Howe being one.

And I will die by the quote " you can score a goal without an assist but you can never get an assist without a goal ".

Goals mean more to me, goals win games.

Bobby Hull and Phil Esposito were both legendary goal scorer in that they lead the LEAGUE in goals for so many seasons.

Bobby Hull may have led for a 10 seasons combined had he not moved away.

Bobby Orr regardless of his longevity got the Bruins two Cups, the lowly Boston Bruins! Bourque couldn't do that.

My god, you are a rookie


1) you think edmonton was stacked you might want to go back further in your archival search and check out the montreal canadiens that dominated for decades with hall of famers like the richard brothers, steve shutt, lafluer, the roadrunner, harvey, savard, robinson, geoffrion, plante, worsley etc...

The oilers were basically as stacked as their main rivals the 80's new york islanders and mid 80's flames (look em up... I could give you a list if you want

To nullify gretky's stats by virtue of his linemates is to nullify the points of gordie howe for having delvecchio, lindsay and red kelly riding along.

Orr for having esposito, buckyk, sanderson and cashman

and hull for having mikita, esposito, nilssson and hedberg

----

as for your quote And I will die by the quote " you can score a goal without an assist but you can never get an assist without a goal ".

kinda defeats your own argument as the man you're going against has more goals than every single one of your favorites... sooo you're saying by virtue of his insane goal scoring binges he IS the greatest or not?

Bobby Hull and Phil Esposito were both legendary goal scorer in that they lead the LEAGUE in goals for so many seasons.

phil esposito was a leach (albeit a very talented one) that fed off hull first then orr.. without those two espo is NOT in the hall of fame as easily (or at all)

Bobby Hull may have led for a 10 seasons combined had he not moved away.

and had gretzky stayed in edmonton he would've eclipse 1000goals and 3000pts


I would give up this argument if I were you cause you'll lose. There is not a single point you can bring up that I can't make void. As I said above.. the man was by no means the biggest, strongest, or best hockey player to ever live. What people praise him for is for being the greatest. No one, not even some entire teams... have accomplished what this single individual did over a career that naysayers like yourself said he couldn't have

get over it man.

 

[the_speedster]

dear lord I smell something bigoted... er.. I mean funny.... big phil is that you?

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

In the 85/86 season, Gretzky put up 215 total points, with 52 goals.

In that same season Jari Kurri put up 68 goals with 131 total points.

Mark Messier put up 84 points, in 63 games.

Glenn Anderson put up 102 points and Coffey registered 138 points.


Just so you know, 3 of the top 4 point scoring leaders were Oilers...the only one NOT an Oiler in the Top 4 that year?? Lemieux.

Oh sure you need a great team to win a Stanley Cup no question, but it also matters what a player does on mediocre to just good team.

Who did Lemieux have in 85/86??

Have you checked out the 1979/80 Oilers? Now there was a talented group. Good thing Stan Wier was there or Gretzky never would have tied for first

 

[Big Phil]

In the 85/86 season, Gretzky put up 215 total points, with 52 goals.

In that same season Jari Kurri put up 68 goals with 131 total points.

Mark Messier put up 84 points, in 63 games.

Glenn Anderson put up 102 points and Coffey registered 138 points.


Just so you know, 3 of the top 4 point scoring leaders were Oilers...the only one NOT an Oiler in the Top 4 that year?? Lemieux.

Oh sure you need a great team to win a Stanley Cup no question, but it also matters what a player does on mediocre to just good team.

Who did Lemieux have in 85/86??

I know the argument you are trying to make but in trying to make that argument you essentially lost it. Gretzky had 163 assists. Kurri had 131 points, Coffey had 138 points. Great players and probably even Hall of Famers without the prescence of #99, but is Kurri a 68 goal man without #99? Nope. Gretzky had more assists that season by a country mile than anyone else had points. He anilhilated the NHL more than ever in that year IMO. That proves right there that in a 21 team league he was able to have 3/4 Oilers in the top 4. Who do you think led the charge?

 

[the_speedster]

Oh I forgot to mention, my biggest issue with Gretzky is he didn't belong in the NHL in the first place, he was never physically strong enough to be in the NHL, the guy was always protected and like Gilmour ( although Gilmour was physically strong enough ) there was suddenly this " no touch " rule.
Some games I've watched just annoy me how all the defencemen just go back trying to get the puck away from Gretzky whereas for other players they're not afraid to check them.

Lemieux was so fun to watch he could score a goal and lay out a guy in the same shift.

I for one respect players who dish out hits and play physically strong, the game was made for that, that's why the " new " NHL ever since the lockout is sometimes depressing for me.

my head hurts... have you actually WATCHED hockey? doug gilmour not touched? I can't even argue with that one its so stupid....

How many gretzky games can you honestly say you've watched? not highlights and not 2nd hand recounting from friends and hf'ers.. how many have you actually watched? Wayne was BEAT up during the battles with the islanders (The last team on earth that would let him "just skate") and calgary (during the alberta battles)

Two reasons why the myth of him not being hit came.. a) you can't hit what you can't catch.. dennis potvin et al. have stated that especially in the early days wayne never let you draw a bead on him.. (hence the patented gretzky blue line turn ) Yet he's been knocked around and knocked out his fair share (just ask kelly buchburger, and bill mcreary)

a) as time went on how many players would look to score a big hit on the greatest of all time? wayne wasn't a physical player so he never got into all out hitting wars.. most players were strong enough to hit him away without killing him (which I'm sure would've impressed you to no end)

If you like your nhl'ers with a bit more testosterone then by all means enjoy the careers of cam neely and eric lindros. Two players that were over the top in terms of their physical approach which ended up costing them their longevity (and in essence affected their legacies)

 

[Mothra]

phil esposito was a leach (albeit a very talented one) that fed off hull first then orr.. without those two espo is NOT in the hall of fame as easily (or at all)

once again proving you get your hockey insight from hockeydb.com and youtube

there is a reason he has multiple Hart and Pearson awards.....but im curious, who did he leach off of in 68-69?

 

[Weztex]

Another monthly ''Gretzky was sh*t'' thread by another poster who tries to find any little reasons, even distorted reality, to put him down for whatever reasons. This stuff is getting very repetitive. I propose to sticky a thread called ''Reasons why Gretzky is consider the greatest NHL player ever'' and force every new HFboards member to read it before they can debate about anything.

Seriously, I love debates but any thread starter claiming ''Gretzky didn't belong in the NHL'' is clearly not looking for a logical and mature discussion.

 

[the_speedster]

once again proving you get your hockey insight from hockeydb.com and youtube

there is a reason he has multiple Hart and Pearson awards.....but im curious, who did he leach off of in 68-69?

ha! saying he was a leach is in reference to his POINT totals my dear chap... there have been pearson and hart winners that didn't put up outrageous points... you might want to rededicate yourself to that hooked on phonics programme in order to understand my posts
\
are you honesltly trying to argue that sans bobby orr (that means without btw) and bobby hull espo would have put up the crazy single season goal and points he did? boy now that's a thread I wanna see

 

[Mothra]

ha! saying he was a leach is in reference to his POINT totals my dear chap... there have been pearson and hart winners that didn't put up outrageous points... you might want to rededicate yourself to that hooked on phonics programme in order to understand my posts

answer the question....68-69...who did he leach stats from

i understand this much.....you thought the rule ending a minor penalty after 1 goal came about with the 80's Oilers....I think that sums up your vast history of watching hockey quite nicely

 

[the_speedster]

1. Wayne
2. Brent

were's keith motherf*****r!