Houle vs Bergevin

[WeThreeKings]

It really comes down to.. who do you think is worse.

The guy who shoots his friend in the knee because he thinks it would be funny
Or the guy who shoots his friend in the knee because someone has a gun to their head and forcing them to do it

 

[gunnerdom]

Four. Sergachev for another okay winger is getting dangerously close to disaster level.

You're also forgetting the terrible contracts like.... Alzner. The terrible asset management in general, the 8M under the cap, drafting character over talent, keeping a terrible coach for way too long, etc.

 

[FlatIron]

I have to give it to Houle but Bergevin is giving him a run for his money.

 

[Sorinth]

Whether or not he was mandated to cut costs...the amount of talent he traded out vs what he got back in return is something that should be sealed away in records forever.

When you trade Hall of Fame talent, you should be able to get back some pieces that become mainstays on your roster...

Agreed he got crap returns. But when you can't take any good players back (Because they cost to much) your going to get a bad return unless you get lucky with the picks/prospects. So sure blame him for not getting better prospects or for not having a better scouting staff so the extra picks are more likely to turn into NHLers. But you can't blame him for trading HoF talent, he had no choice in the matter.

 

[417]

Agreed he got crap returns. But when you can't take any good players back (Because they cost to much) your going to get a bad return unless you get lucky with the picks/prospects. So sure blame him for not getting better prospects or for not having a better scouting staff so the extra picks are more likely to turn into NHLers. But you can't blame him for trading HoF talent, he had no choice in the matter.

Prospects and/or young players on entry level deals don't cost too much...

What money did the Habs save when Rejean Houle decided to trade Pierre Turgeon for Shayne Corson?

 

[Justin11]

To be fair to Houle, he was mandated to cut cost, however the return of the trades made no sense. Also, Houle was working at the brewery when he took over from Savard. Molson family can also share the blame here.

Bergevin has no excuses.

Anyhow, both equally bad in my books.

 

[417]

The current results of this poll is just a reflection of the current state of affairs and isn't based on the actual results of both GM's.

This can't be.

I'm sorry - with all due respect to everyone who voted for Marc Bergevin, but you're either born in the year 2000 later or you're just letting your emotions get the best of you.

 

[gunnerdom]

The current results of this poll is just a reflection of the current state of affairs and isn't based on the actual results of both GM's.

This can't be.

I'm sorry - with all due respect to everyone who voted for Marc Bergevin, but you're either born in the year 2000 later or you're just letting your emotions get the best of you.

Without context, Houle is by far the worst. With context it is very very close.

 

[Sorinth]

Prospects and/or young players on entry level deals don't cost too much...

Exactly, so when you get Rucinski & Kovalenko, it doesn't cost much but if they don't reach their potential then the trade is going to look lopsided.

What money did the Habs save when Rejean Houle decided to trade Pierre Turgeon for Shayne Corson?

I don't see any salary info for players back then, but yes it wouldn't surprise me if Turgeon made more money then Corson back then.

Besides both the Subban and Sergachev trades look way worse.

 

[Darz]

Houle should of never been put in the position he was. He is definitely the worst GM in team history. Bergevin has made a few bad moves, but he isn't even close to Houle category.

 

[MasterD]

Guy A said Bergevin committed to coming on the show in next 3 weeks, let's see if that happens.
Maybe he'll come on for half the time planned and then make them take the footage down too.

I'm fed up with Bergevin as much as anyone, but to be fair he went on 91.9fm's morning show last week, was supposed to be there 15 minutes and was there for more than 30... Nothing was said that I didn't know, but he was there.

 

[Kriss E]

I don't see any salary info for players back then, but yes it wouldn't surprise me if Turgeon made more money then Corson back then.

Besides both the Subban and Sergachev trades look way worse.

You would be right.
Pierre Turgeon made 3M in 96-97, the year he got traded. Corson came in at 1.145M.
Shayne Corson NHL Salary History ( $18,595,998 )
Pierre Turgeon NHL Salary History ( $52,330,000 )

 

[Kriss E]

What money did the Habs save when Rejean Houle decided to trade Pierre Turgeon for Shayne Corson?

From 3M to 1.145M, so they saved more than 50% in cash.
Link is in my previous post.

 

[417]

Without context, Houle is by far the worst. With context it is very very close.

With context...Houle is still demonstrably worse as a GM.

we can make excuses about him being a beer salesman forced to be GM or that he was forced to cut costs.

It still doesn't excuse some of the moves he made, which I detailed in an earlier post.

Bergevin isn't exactly glowing, but none of his trades have done or will have accomplished the long lasting damage that some of Houle's trade still have an footprint on even today.

Bergevin's main problem aren't for what he's done...more for what he hasn't done.

 

[417]

Exactly, so when you get Rucinski & Kovalenko, it doesn't cost much but if they don't reach their potential then the trade is going to look lopsided.

Rucinsky was 24 and Kovalenko was 25 when they were acquired.

I don't to play MMQB here...but wouldn't, I don't know...say an Owen Nolan & Adam Deadmarsh been a better return for HOF goalie Patrick Roy?

is there anyone at the time who thought Rucinsky & Kovalenko were anything more than decent players at the time?

I don't see any salary info for players back then, but yes it wouldn't surprise me if Turgeon made more money then Corson back then.

Besides both the Subban and Sergachev trades look way worse.

Than Pierre Turgeon + Craig Conroy + Rory Fitzpatrick for Shayne Corson + Murray Baron???

Not even freaking close lol

 

[Laurentide]

With context...Houle is still demonstrably worse as a GM.

we can make excuses about him being a beer salesman forced to be GM or that he was forced to cut costs.

It still doesn't excuse some of the moves he made, which I detailed in an earlier post.

Bergevin isn't exactly glowing, but none of his trades have done or will have accomplished the long lasting damage that some of Houle's trade still have an footprint on even today.

Bergevin's main problem aren't for what he's done...more for what he hasn't done.

You are forgetting the most important context: unlike Bergevin, Houle wasn't really the GM when he was supposedly the GM. Ronald Corey was the de facto GM. Houle couldn't order a box of paper clips without Corey's approval. As far as I'm concerned, every deal made during Houle's tenure was a Ron Corey deal.

Bergevin can only wish that he had as credible an excuse as Houle.

 

[417]

From 3M to 1.145M, so they saved more than 50% in cash.
Link is in my previous post.

are you also including the other elements of this deal?

 

[417]

You are forgetting the most important context: unlike Bergevin, Houle wasn't really the GM when he was supposedly the GM. Ronald Corey was the de facto GM. Houle couldn't order a box of paper clips without Corey's approval. As far as I'm concerned, every deal made during Houle's tenure was a Ron Corey deal.

Bergevin can only wish that he had as credible an excuse as Houle.

Be that as it may...maybe we should update the thread title to accurately represent this then

Ronald Corey & Rejean Houle vs Marc Bergevin

Either way - my opinion stays the same

Patrick Roy (HOF, arguably great goaltender of all tiem) + Mark Recchi (1533 career pts) + Vincent Damphousse (1205 career pts)+ Pierre Turgeon (1327 career pts) + Brian Bellows (1022 career points)

should be able to return more than collection of

Martin Rucinsky + Andrei Kovalenko + Jocelyn Thibault + Dainius Zubrus + Marcel Hossa + Shayne Corson + Murray Baron + Marc Bureau + a bunch of draft picks that never played in the NHL.

 

[Laurentide]

Trading away Recchi was dumb. Everyone complained about losing LeClair but I was fine with Recchi. That was a fair value trade and LeClair never would have become what he became in Philly because there was no one comparable to Lindros in Montreal for him to play with. They should have made Recchi their franchise forward. They also should have held on to Zubrus. Turgeon should have never been made captain. That more than anything sealed his fate with the club, which had a nasty habit of trading away its captains. Turgeon was never captain material, just like Lafleur wasn't. But by this time, with Quebec politics being what they were, having a francophone captain mattered for some reason. But you don't put the C on the sweater of a guy nicknamed "The Tin Man" because of his lack of heart (or "character" as some describe it)

The Roy fiasco was botched from the get-go. Again, this was Corey panicking about the image of the brand instead of doing the smart thing. They should have forced a truce, played out the rest of the season and then quietly traded Roy during the summer for a huge return. But when other GM's sense that there's blood in the water they don't offer you much. They pray for chumps like Corey to come along and make stupid decisions for reasons of expediency. Corey basically gifted the 96 Cup to the Avs with that deal. Good thing they weren't still playing in Quebec City or they'd have never got Roy.

 

[417]

Trading away Recchi was dumb. Everyone complained about losing LeClair but I was fine with Recchi. That was a fair value trade and LeClair never would have become what he became in Philly because there was no one comparable to Lindros in Montreal for him to play with. They should have made Recchi their franchise forward.

Not sure if you knew but Serge Savard traded LeClair + Desjardins + Dionne for Recchi + 3rd round pick...

Rejean Houle traded Recchi for Zubrus.

They also should have held on to Zubrus. Turgeon should have never been made captain. That more than anything sealed his fate with the club, which had a nasty habit of trading away its captains. Turgeon was never captain material, just like Lafleur wasn't. But by this time, with Quebec politics being what they were, having a francophone captain mattered for some reason. But you don't put the C on the sweater of a guy nicknamed "The Tin Man" because of his lack of heart (or "character" as some describe it).

You also don't trade him for a worn down Shayne Corson & Murray Baron

The Roy fiasco was botched from the get-go. Again, this was Corey panicking about the image of the brand instead of doing the smart thing. They should have forced a truce, played out the rest of the season and then quietly traded Roy during the summer for a huge return. But when other GM's sense that there's blood in the water they don't offer you much. They pray for chumps like Corey to come along and make stupid decisions for reasons of expediency. Corey basically gifted the 96 Cup to the Avs with that deal. Good thing they weren't still playing in Quebec City or they'd have never got Roy.

Be that as it may...whether you want to attribute that trade to Corey or Houle. That trade alone is worst than anything Bergevin has ever done, yes, including the trading of Montreal Canadiens fans Hall of Famer PK Subban.

 

[Laurentide]

Not sure if you knew but Serge Savard traded LeClair + Desjardins + Dionne for Recchi + 3rd round pick...

Rejean Houle traded Recchi for Zubrus.


You also don't trade him for a worn down Shayne Corson & Murray Baron


Be that as it may...whether you want to attribute that trade to Corey or Houle. That trade alone is worst than anything Bergevin has ever done, yes, including the trading of Montreal Canadiens fans Hall of Famer PK Subban.

I knew that Savard traded LeClair. I was advocating that Houle should have kept Recchi. I also liked Zubrus although I think they could have acquired him for a lesser asset than Recchi.

I wouldn't have touched Corson 2.0 or Richer 2.0 with a ten foot pole.

Today I just hope I don't have to live through Plekanec 2.0.

 

[417]

I knew that Savard traded LeClair. I was advocating that Houle should have kept Recchi. I also liked Zubrus although I think they could have acquired him for a lesser asset than Recchi.

K my bad...didn't know if you knew.

Recchi for LeClair 1 for 1 would of been fine...it's the fact they also included Eric Desjardins that made the trade completely out of whack.

Man do I remember the mid-to-late 90's where every time the Habs played the Flyers...that "Legion of Doom" line with LeClair-Lindros-Renberg would absolutely destroy our puny Habs every time.

I wouldn't have touched Corson 2.0 or Richer 2.0 with a ten foot pole.

Today I just hope I don't have to live through Plekanec 2.0.

It was mind boggling at the time that they traded a player coming off a 98pt season (Turgeon) for a player coming off a 46pt season (Corson).

At the time, Turgeon was 27yrs old he had 790pts points in 681 games. He was one of the NHL's most productive centers. lol

As bad as the Roy & LeClair trades were...this completed the trifecta.

And I suppose trading Damphousse for what amounted to nothing was just the cherry on top.

The Réjean Houle days as GM of this franchise were its darkest days...not even remotely comparable to what's happening today.

 

[hotcarle]

I wasn't around for houle

Can someone enlight me with his resumè

Traded Roy and Keane for Kovalenko Rucinsky and Thibault, out of spite, to Colorado, so they could beat Detroit...didnt get Nolan, Forsberg, kamensky, deadmarsh, sakic, or any one of their many stars, for the greatest goalie in nhl history

Traded recchi for zubrus, after we traded the farm to get recchi.

Traded damphousse, our last #1 c, for a conditional pick (2nd I think)

Traded Turgeon for a washed up Corson and Murray Baron .

All of his 1sts busted.

 

[donghabs98]

I always thought Irving Grundman was the worst, but Bergevin is gaining on him exponentially.

The fact his hiring drove out Scotty Bowman gives him a big advantage at being the worst GM not to mention his many questionable player personnel decision such as the Denis Savard draft. If it wasn't for Serge Savard coming in the dark days for the Habs would have happened a lot sooner than in the late 90s.

The thing with Houle is he was a bad GM but he shouldn't have been the GM in the first place. Say what you want about Bergevin but at least he was qualified for the position. Houle was picked because he was a ex-Hab who was close with Molson/Ronald Corey. He should have never been GM and I blame Corey for that. Houle had good intentions but was just in way over his head.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

K my bad...didn't know if you knew.

Recchi for LeClair 1 for 1 would of been fine...it's the fact they also included Eric Desjardins that made the trade completely out of whack.

Man do I remember the mid-to-late 90's where every time the Habs played the Flyers...that "Legion of Doom" line with LeClair-Lindros-Renberg would absolutely destroy our puny Habs every time.




It was mind boggling at the time that they traded a player coming off a 98pt season (Turgeon) for a player coming off a 46pt season (Corson).

At the time, Turgeon was 27yrs old he had 790pts points in 681 games. He was one of the NHL's most productive centers. lol

As bad as the Roy & LeClair trades were...this completed the trifecta.

And I suppose trading Damphousse for what amounted to nothing was just the cherry on top.

The Réjean Houle days as GM of this franchise were its darkest days...not even remotely comparable to what's happening today.

I get where you're going with this but no way would have the Flyers pulled the trigger in a 1 vs 1 trade. Leclair was a 45 pts winger.

 

[hotcarle]

some trade gems from his era as GM of this team

Brian Bellows for Marc Bureau
- sure, Bellows wasn't what he was at that point, but he was much better than Marc Bureau

Patrick Roy + Mike Kean for Jocelyn Thibault + Martin Rucinsky + Andrei Kovalenko
- I don't even need to qualify the disaster that this trade turned out to be.

Pierre Turgeon + Craig Conroy + Rory Fitzpatrick for Shayne Corson + Murray Baron + 5th round pick
- I mean he traded All Star Dman Rory Fitzpatrick...enough said lol

Donald Brashear for Jason Cullimore
- Yes, not huge names, but Brashear went on to have a long career as an enforcer in the NHL, arguably one of the most feared during his time, meanwhile the Habs became a pushover physically...in a previous era of hockey when physical intimation was much more prevalent, this was bad

Darcy Tucker + Stephane Richer + David Wilkie for Igor Ulanov + Patrick Poulin + Mick Vukota
- Sure Tucker wasn't the most liked player in the NHL, but he had a very long and fairly productive career after being traded from Montreal both for the Lightning but especially the Leafs

Valeri Bure for Jonas Hoglund + Zarley Zalapski
- Not a major blunder but again, traded a productive player for nothing

Mark Recchi for Dainius Zubrus + a bunch of picks that never amounted to anything
- Houle traded Recchi because the Habs thought he was done...he only went on to play another 13yrs and capped off his HOF career with a Stanley Cup with the Bruins

Vincent Damphousse for + 1st (Marcel Hossa) + a few other picks who never played in the NHL
- This trade lives in infamy because that was the last PPG center the Habs ever had

1st round pick for Trevor Linden
- Linden was finished at that point of his career, he didn't last very...guess the only redeeming part about this trade was that the 1st round pick traded was in 1999, a historically bad 1st round

Eric Weirich for Patrick Traverse
- He acquired Patrick Traverse

I suppose Rejean Houle's tenure as a GM isn't so bad if you ignore the fact that he traded

Hall of Famers: Patrick Roy, Mark Recchi

Not quite hall of famers but very, very good players: Pierre Turgeon, Vincent Damphousse & Brian Bellows

A couple of players who ended up playing over or near 1000 games: Darcy Tucker + Donald Brashear + Craig Conroy + Eric Weinrich

and basically got nothing for it other than a few decent years from Martin Rucinsky & Shayne Corson...I mean sure, I guess this pails in comparison to PK Subban for Shea Weber or Mikhail Sergachev for Jonathan Drouin.

lol

Great summary . Every time I see Houle answering phones for Habs charity drives, I think, is the guy on the phone giving him hell?