whatthef
Failure is an Option
Depends on the return. I don't believe in this certain players are untouchable stuff. Everyone is available all the time it just needs to be for the right price.
Depends on the return. I don't believe in this certain players are untouchable stuff. Everyone is available all the time it just needs to be for the right price.
I'm in this boat. We are quickly growing a very awesome prospect pool and the kids we have in the NHL do not look bad they just need time. Holmgren is a big reason our drafting is as successful as it is.
Appleyard
Registered User
Well... a decent proportion of meals you will ever eat will have some polonium in them. ;p (especially seafood lovers or someone who likes Caribou.)
But MFL was a pure block of polonium 210 forced into our throats repeatedly... no ifs or buts there.
I'm just curious, who are these kids people speak of? Our prospect pool is better then it should be and not without it's positives, but it's still lacking and still definitely in the bottom half of the league.
We have very little impact forward talent. Probably none actually. Unless you count Couturier and Schenn, but even that isn't shaking out as hoped.
Our D prospects aren't bad, but it's more of the same of what we already have. No elite talent most likely and nobody that would make a massive difference over what our current D roster looks like. In goal we have Stolarz.
That's about the extent of the kids.
We have very little impact forward talent. Probably none actually. Unless you count Couturier and Schenn, but even that isn't shaking out as hoped.
Our D prospects aren't bad, but it's more of the same of what we already have. No elite talent most likely and nobody that would make a massive difference over what our current D roster looks like. In goal we have Stolarz.
That's about the extent of the kids.
Homer missed a wide open shot last night, and Homer hit the post last night ETC.Homer did not cover his man right out front of the net at the end of the game, nor did Lavy, or Barube etc.......Fire them all ! LOL
The players themselves are 100 % responsible and i am sick of hearing about " the system " is to blame.......Olympians seem to pick up whatever " system " in short order and get on with it...........These guys are professional hockey players being paid a handsome sum of money to do such and believe it or not they are struggling and are not very proud of it nor happy about it. The whole division is pretty much struggling overall, which means our club still has a window of opportunity to work things out and get it going.I know its tough to watch right now, but better days are coming .
The players themselves are 100 % responsible and i am sick of hearing about " the system " is to blame.......Olympians seem to pick up whatever " system " in short order and get on with it...........These guys are professional hockey players being paid a handsome sum of money to do such and believe it or not they are struggling and are not very proud of it nor happy about it. The whole division is pretty much struggling overall, which means our club still has a window of opportunity to work things out and get it going.I know its tough to watch right now, but better days are coming .
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
No, the players aren't a full 100% responsible. They do get their share of blame, but Homer gets a hell of a lot for assembling a team that has shown practically no chemistry since last year. He also deserves blame for all the bad moves and such from the past that helped create the current mess.
If you really think GMs don't have responsibility, then why do they ever get fired? Why is it that teams holding on to bad GMs never go anywhere?
I'm curious, if you don't think a GM is responsible for the collection of players he puts on the ice what exactly is he there for? What is his job? Also, why would a GM ever get fired and what exactly is the job description?
Respectfully your rebuttal has not addressed my post at all ? Did HOMER miss wide open shots, not cover his guy, etc....We have been in MANY close games, we are not getting blown out of most games to where i certainly would step back and look at the GM, of Coach etc .
We currently have players who HOMER signed who have had their fare share of goals, assist etc, like Girioux, Hartnell, Voracek who at the moment have how many goals total ? If our " core " players were scoring we would be fine, no one blamed Homer when Girioux, Harts etc were lighting up the board..I learned during 20 years of military service to NEVER panick or overreact to things, and i see a helluva lot of knee jerk stuff going on here and the other team boards as well.........Pens fans wanted their coach fired , Bruins wanted their coaches head, Eagles fans wanted Andy's head as did i, but i never considered him a bad coach or a terrible coach etc .
If folks want Homer gone to change things, fire Lavy to change things i can understand that completely.........But the folks who say Homer is the worst GM, terrible GM , Lavy sucks as a coach etc etc is actually quite amusing to me considering some of the great things these guys have done in their careers .
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
Did Homer build a team full of players who are underperforming for the second straight year? I'm pretty sure he did. The coaching change is also at the heart of this issue by all accounts, and that falls squarely on Homer's head.
If it's all on the players, why did Clarke ever have to step aside? If it's all the players, why was Burke let go?
As for Pens fans wanting their coach fired, that isn't exactly a knee jerk reaction. That's a movement that has been slowly but steadily building for several seasons, so the opposite of knee jerk.
Reid was clearly done in Philly. He was out of ideas and needed a fresh start, as did the team (The Flyers are increasingly in the same situation). Don't forget that he inherited a roster in KC filled with some damned good players.
You seem to be seriously underestimating the importance of management and coaching. If they make the wrong decisions there isn't always a lot the players can do to make it work.
Last season was a half season FULL of injuries to put it mildly .The Lads played pretty darn well the last few weeks, Homer brings in Mason and he looked good as an adjustment to the whole Bryz thing which certainly did not go well for Paul and crew .
This season we jumped on Toronto the first game had tons of Jump, lots of shots, great quality chances " Lav'ys system sucks ? " . Toronto's goalie stood on his head and the rest is history. The Lads have not as of yet got it going with confidence and whats incredible is with Roo, Harts, Voracek, Coots all barely noticeable on the score sheet each and every night we still have been in every game but one this year. I suppose i am perhaps a little more optimistic than many to believe that Roo, Harts, Voracek, Coots, Read, Simmonds etc will start scoring more soon and we will start rolling . Might never happen, but it would not surprise me at all if they do .
Last edited by a moderator:
whatthef
Failure is an Option
The defense wasn't close to good enough last season. Don't be fooled by the injures side for swapping Streit for Gervis (yes that is an upgrade) and adding Gill it's the same defense and it looks as bad if not worse. It actually played better with the call ups last season (though I don't think they could have sustained that play over a longer period). You do have to much faith in the forwards your mentioning also. None of our forwards are natural goal scorers. Other than Vinny and Hartnell none of them have scored over 30 goals and I don't expect either of them to do that again in the NHL.
Tripod
I hate this team
To defend Homer for a second, he HAS tried to add 2 different impact D in Weber and Suter. And we can speculate on what was offered, etc.., but for all we know Nashville flat out said no to any trade and Homlgren went with the offersheet.
And in the offseason, when LOTS of posters on here said we added the best PMD and forward available for free, they were happy with things. They also liked adding Emery as a reliable back-up. And were happy when he re-signed Read. And thought that the Giroux deal was fair.
Can ANYONE on here show a thread or multiple comments saying..."I think scoring goals is going to be an issue" I am betting not!!! We all thought that Streit would help the 2nd PP unit or at worst, bump Kimmo to it which would help it. We ALL expected G to be a PPG-90 point guy, Jake to be a 60-70 guy, Vinny to be a 60 point guy, Hartnell, Read and Simmonds to be 40-55 point guys. We hoped Schenn would go from a 45 point pace to a 50 point guys. We also hoped Couts would grow and get more offensive.
EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE GUYS EXCEPT VINNY ARE BELOW EXPECTATIONS. That is on the players and coaching, not Holmgren. We ALL though last year was an anomoly for where we finished. We ALL thought that Lavi was not playing to the strengths of the D. Holmgren DOES get blame for not getting, skating, PMD D-men. But we have NO PROOF that he didn't try for one or multiple ones. Maybe the asking price was too high. Should we make a bad deal to fill a hole?
We complain that mgt makes quick, non thought out decisions. And now that we are struggling, we all want him to fix it now....myself included...because it sucks losing...and losing in this fashion.
Here we are talking about trading away 20 year old Couts and 22 year old Brayden Schenn. JVR broke out at 24 just remember. Hell even Luke Schenn, he has more upside still than everyone of our younger D except for Morin and Hagg.
I ONLY do a deal if it gets us a scoring winger or a #1a/b D-man.
How about benching the guy who has a team worst -10 in 14 games and blew the coverage in the last minute of the game vs the Canes. Maybe THAT would send a message to the entire team...AND Giroux. But of course, he has been in on 44% of the teams goals the last 9 games so that isn't going to happen. At SOME POINT, SOMEONE has to raise their level of play up and WIN a game on their back...like Vinny did earlier this year. It SHOULD be Giroux, but will it be?
That's my rant.
And in the offseason, when LOTS of posters on here said we added the best PMD and forward available for free, they were happy with things. They also liked adding Emery as a reliable back-up. And were happy when he re-signed Read. And thought that the Giroux deal was fair.
Can ANYONE on here show a thread or multiple comments saying..."I think scoring goals is going to be an issue" I am betting not!!! We all thought that Streit would help the 2nd PP unit or at worst, bump Kimmo to it which would help it. We ALL expected G to be a PPG-90 point guy, Jake to be a 60-70 guy, Vinny to be a 60 point guy, Hartnell, Read and Simmonds to be 40-55 point guys. We hoped Schenn would go from a 45 point pace to a 50 point guys. We also hoped Couts would grow and get more offensive.
EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE GUYS EXCEPT VINNY ARE BELOW EXPECTATIONS. That is on the players and coaching, not Holmgren. We ALL though last year was an anomoly for where we finished. We ALL thought that Lavi was not playing to the strengths of the D. Holmgren DOES get blame for not getting, skating, PMD D-men. But we have NO PROOF that he didn't try for one or multiple ones. Maybe the asking price was too high. Should we make a bad deal to fill a hole?
We complain that mgt makes quick, non thought out decisions. And now that we are struggling, we all want him to fix it now....myself included...because it sucks losing...and losing in this fashion.
Here we are talking about trading away 20 year old Couts and 22 year old Brayden Schenn. JVR broke out at 24 just remember. Hell even Luke Schenn, he has more upside still than everyone of our younger D except for Morin and Hagg.
I ONLY do a deal if it gets us a scoring winger or a #1a/b D-man.
How about benching the guy who has a team worst -10 in 14 games and blew the coverage in the last minute of the game vs the Canes. Maybe THAT would send a message to the entire team...AND Giroux. But of course, he has been in on 44% of the teams goals the last 9 games so that isn't going to happen. At SOME POINT, SOMEONE has to raise their level of play up and WIN a game on their back...like Vinny did earlier this year. It SHOULD be Giroux, but will it be?
That's my rant.
4thline4life
Registered User
- Jul 12, 2010
- 2,796
- 1
I assumed this when I opened the thread and only saw a link to his own article, and after actually reading, I could not agree more. It's one thing to take an unpopular stance, but at least back it up with something somewhat convincing.
BillDineen
Former Flyer / Extinct Dinosaur Advisor
- Aug 9, 2009
- 9,377
- 8,109
Excellent rant.............PLAYERS not playing even close to their expectations is on the players.
DecadesofFutility
Registered User
I have no problem trading some deadwood on this team for something better.
I did not like Holmgren's off season moves at all. More washed up veterans on a team needing a better infusion of talent.
I did expect more scoring than this, but our defensive woes I expected without a trade(s) for faster and more skilled defensemen.
Holmgren failed to address the defense adequately in the offseason.
The players are playing poorly, but maybe they overachieved and we all over estimated their skills and potential.
Talent evaluation is the GM's job, and if this is the talent we have to show for our high payroll, then heads should and need to roll.
Lavi was not responsible for this mess we see on the ice, he was just a scapegoat.
Holmgren caused this mess and must be held accountable for his mistakes.
I did not like Holmgren's off season moves at all. More washed up veterans on a team needing a better infusion of talent.
I did expect more scoring than this, but our defensive woes I expected without a trade(s) for faster and more skilled defensemen.
Holmgren failed to address the defense adequately in the offseason.
The players are playing poorly, but maybe they overachieved and we all over estimated their skills and potential.
Talent evaluation is the GM's job, and if this is the talent we have to show for our high payroll, then heads should and need to roll.
Lavi was not responsible for this mess we see on the ice, he was just a scapegoat.
Holmgren caused this mess and must be held accountable for his mistakes.
Last edited:
GKJ
Global Moderator
- Feb 27, 2002
- 187,501
- 39,488
"Be that as it may, the time he spent in the Orange and Black did wonders for this franchise."
Looks like it's doing the same wonders it did for St. Louis, Edmonton, and Anaheim.
"Somehow, Homer was able to flip a 1st round pick to the Nashville Predators for both Scott Hartnell and Kimmo Timonen. Both are slumping currently, but they were catalysts for a team in need of a jolt for the past six years. Lest we forget the impact they had early in their Flyers’ careers."
Somehow? Somehow? "We'll trade you back the 1st round pick to sign these guys, since you just traded us the pick anyways, and it kind of didn't work out for you." Granted, if we didn't, someone else was going to. It's become common practice around the league now.
"The job of a general manager is to assemble a team and coaches that are capable of competing on a nightly basis. What they actually do on the ice is beyond a general manager’s control. I could understand an argument if Paul Holmgren was out on the ice every night showing a lackluster effort, but most of the blame rests on the shoulders of the players he pays to perform."
I'm sure if you ran this by Oilers and Leafs fans over the last 8 years...
But right before that, we have...
"The trade that probably goes most unnoticed was a deal Homer made with the Detroit Red Wings. Prior to the 2010 trade deadline, the Flyers dealt Ole-Kristian Tollefsen and a 5th-round pick to Detroit for Ville Leino. Leino didn’t click in Philadelphia immediately, but once he played his first game in the playoffs, he – along with Scott Hartnell and Danny Briere – was magic. They went on to form the most dangerous line in the playoffs."
You can't take pressure off the GM for when it not works, but give him all the credit when it does.
This is a better defense of Holmgren than the article, but it doesn't change the fact that Holmgren has overturned the roster enough times to where it's his time to pay the piper. The coaching change to date has not worked out, and Berube has been the guy long enough now where "changing the system" isn't an excuse anymore. Especially since the system isn't really that much different.
I just hope people don't give credit to the wrong people when the percentages flip on the Flyers. The people who say there's too much talent and ability for the lack of scoring to continue are right.
Looks like it's doing the same wonders it did for St. Louis, Edmonton, and Anaheim.
"Somehow, Homer was able to flip a 1st round pick to the Nashville Predators for both Scott Hartnell and Kimmo Timonen. Both are slumping currently, but they were catalysts for a team in need of a jolt for the past six years. Lest we forget the impact they had early in their Flyers’ careers."
Somehow? Somehow? "We'll trade you back the 1st round pick to sign these guys, since you just traded us the pick anyways, and it kind of didn't work out for you." Granted, if we didn't, someone else was going to. It's become common practice around the league now.
"The job of a general manager is to assemble a team and coaches that are capable of competing on a nightly basis. What they actually do on the ice is beyond a general manager’s control. I could understand an argument if Paul Holmgren was out on the ice every night showing a lackluster effort, but most of the blame rests on the shoulders of the players he pays to perform."
I'm sure if you ran this by Oilers and Leafs fans over the last 8 years...
But right before that, we have...
"The trade that probably goes most unnoticed was a deal Homer made with the Detroit Red Wings. Prior to the 2010 trade deadline, the Flyers dealt Ole-Kristian Tollefsen and a 5th-round pick to Detroit for Ville Leino. Leino didn’t click in Philadelphia immediately, but once he played his first game in the playoffs, he – along with Scott Hartnell and Danny Briere – was magic. They went on to form the most dangerous line in the playoffs."
You can't take pressure off the GM for when it not works, but give him all the credit when it does.
This is a better defense of Holmgren than the article, but it doesn't change the fact that Holmgren has overturned the roster enough times to where it's his time to pay the piper. The coaching change to date has not worked out, and Berube has been the guy long enough now where "changing the system" isn't an excuse anymore. Especially since the system isn't really that much different.
I just hope people don't give credit to the wrong people when the percentages flip on the Flyers. The people who say there's too much talent and ability for the lack of scoring to continue are right.
Hiesenberg
Registered User
- Jul 2, 2013
- 15,576
- 1,875
Your looking TOO far.
Stand back and look, the forwards ON THE TEAM.
Simmonds/Voracek/Giroux/Schenn/Courturier/Read. 6 guys that are 26 or younger. Then add in Laughon/Cousins/McGinn/Straka/Rinaldo/Raffl, still very young player.
Defense is where its falling apart seriously, the talent in the prospect pool is getting better, but its FAR off. Right now you only have Schenn & Gus (both benched, lol) Then you have Alt & Lauridson down in the AHL, Alt may project to be a top 4, Lauridson, probably no better than a 6/7. Ghost/Morin/Hagg have HUGE upsides, but time will tell and only 1 may be on the team next year, and thats a big if.
Again, this team is massively flawed, I'm not saying it isn't, but everybody wants a move to get younger, well this team is pretty friggin young already for the most part and in areas where its not, Holmgren is patiently waiting for those guys to come up.
DecadesofFutility
Registered User
Giroux has seriously regressed without the presence of Jagr on his line.
IMHO we lack a superstar forward, a player that produces over 1 goal a game average.
Offensively, we have an over abundance of 2nd and third line players that are very streaky scorers leading to lack of firepower.
Defensively the team is much better on paper than on the ice, and is filled with overvalued average players.
In a league driven by starpower, we lack stars and talent.
We are unable to draft or trade for the starpower we need to contend for the Stanley Cup.
THIS IS WHY HOLMGREN MUST BE FIRED !!!
Last edited:
Hiesenberg
Registered User
- Jul 2, 2013
- 15,576
- 1,875
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
Every star player needs support, and Giroux is getting none. Ovechkin and Crosby are realistically the only two players who can work on their own, and even that is questionable.
Ovechkin could score 50 on his own (<===exaggeration), but he needs support to get those assists. Crosby probably could do it on his own, same with Malkin. But yeah Giroux needs some help out there. I'm honestly shocked that the Flyers offense has been this bad. If the defense/goalies were ******** the bed, I would not be shocked, but offense was not the first thing I thought of when I was thinking about problems with this team.
Not sure how to fix it. I thought Downie would really spark them, but that has been sidelined for a minute. Hopefully when he gets back it gives them a chance to gel and they can start clicking.
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
See, I doubt even Crosby and Malkin can do it on their own. Both have managed to be shut down in the playoffs for two years running. It is generally agreed it's because they lack support.
BackToTheBrierePatch
Justice for Cricket
so a couple of years ago when these same players were all having career seasons at the same time some wanted Holmgren for GM of the year for bringing in those guys.
now its all on the players and not on the GM. not a double standard there. nope.
for the record the players have a good amount of blame in whats going on this season, but Holmgren also needs to be held accountable as well. this is a results oriented business and since the Cup run things have gone backwards. yes some of that is on the Pronger situation but still i see Holmgren putting a bandaid on a leaking dam
JDinkalage Morgoone
U of South Flurrida
Ad
Upcoming events
-
Game 4 Providence Bruins @ Hartford Wolf Pack - Hartford Wolf Pack leads series 2-1Wagers: 1Staked: $25.00Event closes- Updated:
-
Game 4 Belleville Senators @ Cleveland Monsters - Cleveland Monsters leads series 2-1Wagers: 2Staked: $125.00Event closes
- Updated:
-
Game 5 Syracuse Crunch @ Rochester Americans - Series tied 2-2Wagers: 2Staked: $1,100.00Event closes
- Updated:
-
