Holmgren DOESN'T deserve to get fired

[whatthef]

Should Giroux be creating players to be good? Why does Giroux need a superstar winger?

Because Hartnell can't even seem to score in an empty net when Giroux sets him up perfectly. Mind I don't think he's been playing great, but there have been a pretty good amount of times where Giroux is able to get the puck to a winger who is in a position to score and more often than not they've missed the next, flubbed the puck, etc.

 

[duffy9748]

Giroux has seriously regressed without the presence of Jagr on his line.
IMHO we lack a superstar forward, a player that produces over 1 goal a game average.
Offensively, we have an over abundance of 2nd and third line players that are very streaky scorers leading to lack of firepower.
Defensively the team is much better on paper than on the ice, and is filled with overvalued average players.
In a league driven by starpower, we lack stars and talent.
We are unable to draft or trade for the starpower we need to contend for the Stanley Cup.
THIS IS WHY HOLMGREN MUST BE FIRED !!!

Are you bringing Gretzky out of retirement and building a time machine?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Are you bringing Gretzky out of retirement and building a time machine?

That or Brett Hull.

 

[member 30781]

That or Brett Hull.

And/or Jiri Dopita.

 

[Boxscore]

"Holmgren DOESN'T deserve to be fired"..... this thread can't be serious.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

"Holmgren DOESN'T deserve to be fired"..... this thread can't be serious.

you didnt know about that double standard with the Holmgren supporters do you?

he can take the credit. but when it comes to taking the blame?

whatch ya takin about Willis?

 

[Haute Couturier]

Not even going to click on the link. Just laughable.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Not even going to click on the link. Just laughable.

i read that "article". wanted to use that Joker Not sure if serious meme

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

you didnt know about that double standard with the Holmgren supporters do you?

he can take the credit. but when it comes to taking the blame?

whatch ya takin about Willis?

Sounds a little like the double standard with the anti-Holmgren folks. All the blame for everything, none of the credit for anything. My favorite example I like to bring up, which never garners any response from anyone:

Trades a third round pick in an otherwise meaningless deal: Worst GM ever has no idea how to manage assets!

Gets a third round pick in an otherwise meaningless deal: Big deal, it's a third round pick. He traded away picks before so this is worthless!

It always seems that the picks traded are worth more than the picks received. Weird, right?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Sounds a little like the double standard with the anti-Holmgren folks. All the blame for everything, none of the credit for anything. My favorite example I like to bring up, which never garners any response from anyone:

Trades a third round pick in an otherwise meaningless deal: Worst GM ever has no idea how to manage assets!

Gets a third round pick in an otherwise meaningless deal: Big deal, it's a third round pick. He traded away picks before so this is worthless!

It always seems that the picks traded are worth more than the picks received. Weird, right?

I give him credit when he does good things.

The problem is, his humongous idiocy tends to overshadow it. For instance, the Leighton signing which led to a cascading effect of terrible things that is still affecting this team.

Or his insistence on trading all picks and prospects meaning we have no cheap Dmen, causing us to spend an unholy amount on a mediocre D, which mathematically is costing them two good forwards. For a team with huge offensive struggles for two years now, that sure looks awful.

Sure though, let's celebrate that Lecavalier signing. Never mind that it's a drop in the bucket compared to the huge issues with the team he built.

I honestly cannot think of a single reason to defend Homer and I do not known how any person can do it. This organization needs a new perspective from the top all the way down to the players, and even down to the cleaning staff.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Sounds a little like the double standard with the anti-Holmgren folks. All the blame for everything, none of the credit for anything. My favorite example I like to bring up, which never garners any response from anyone:

Trades a third round pick in an otherwise meaningless deal: Worst GM ever has no idea how to manage assets!

Gets a third round pick in an otherwise meaningless deal: Big deal, it's a third round pick. He traded away picks before so this is worthless!

It always seems that the picks traded are worth more than the picks received. Weird, right?

I never once said that he hasnt made good deals. he made one less then a week ago.
Gotta love the attitude that draft picks arent worth as much as 39 year old rentals.
great philosophy.
It just boggles my mind that some folks arent the least bit worried that the Flyers still have one of the worst prospect pools in the entire NHL. Sure there are some guys at the top of our organization rankings but after the first 4 or so it really drops off quick.
the Phantoms have sucked for how long now? yeah who cares because we have a competite team in Philly. oh wait. nmind.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I never once said that he hasnt made good deals. he made one less then a week ago.
Gotta love the attitude that draft picks arent worth as much as 39 year old rentals.
great philosophy.
It just boggles my mind that some folks arent the least bit worried that the Flyers still have one of the worst prospect pools in the entire NHL. Sure there are some guys at the top of our organization rankings but after the first 4 or so it really drops off quick.
the Phantoms have sucked for how long now? yeah who cares because we have a competite team in Philly. oh wait. nmind.

Yeah, having Versteeg for 2 months for a 1st rounder sure was worth it. That didn't look dumb as hell when he was healthy and a good forward for Florida.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Yeah, having Versteeg for 2 months for a 1st rounder sure was worth it. That didn't look dumb as hell when he was healthy and a good forward for Florida.

the Kubina trade was brilliant as well, a broken down defenseman>>>>>>2nd round pick

no doubt about it

 

[Beef Invictus]

DFF, do you still believe that Homer's cap and asset management being completely untenable was entirely unpredictable by amateurs like me and Jester?

Even after the predicted apocalypse happened?

 

[Beef Invictus]

the Kubina trade was brilliant as well, a broken down defenseman>>>>>>2nd round pick

no doubt about it

The 2010 offseason has to be one of the worst offseasons by a GM coming off a Finals run...ever.

Never before has any GM taken a contender and so thoroughly shot it to hell.

Surely though, nobody could have predicted those moves would be terrible. Well, except all the people who did.

 

[El Dandy*]

What's this?! Another hacky article found on the internet?

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

The 2010 offseason has to be one of the worst offseasons by a GM coming off a Finals run...ever.

Never before has any GM taken a contender and so thoroughly shot it to hell.

Surely though, nobody could have predicted those moves would be terrible. Well, except all the people who did.

the Holmgren supporters said we gotta be patient and see how things work out. now that they arent working out its. its all hindsight. nobody could of seen this coming. oh wait. many of us did. yup we were all crazy for thinking the way we did just a couple years ago.
I really never understood the idea of having a good prospect pool, a good farm club and a good NHL team. remember when some folks were saying its going to come back to bite us. not having viable options below the big club. the Holmgren supporters didnt want to hear it due to the youth of the core.
Now here we are. a ****** hockey team. nothing except for 1 or 2 guys in ADK and a top heavy prospect pool. who woulda thunk it.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

I give him credit when he does good things.

The problem is, his humongous idiocy tends to overshadow it. For instance, the Leighton signing which led to a cascading effect of terrible things that is still affecting this team.

Or his insistence on trading all picks and prospects meaning we have no cheap Dmen, causing us to spend an unholy amount on a mediocre D, which mathematically is costing them two good forwards. For a team with huge offensive struggles for two years now, that sure looks awful.

Sure though, let's celebrate that Lecavalier signing. Never mind that it's a drop in the bucket compared to the huge issues with the team he built.

I honestly cannot think of a single reason to defend Homer and I do not known how any person can do it. This organization needs a new perspective from the top all the way down to the players, and even down to the cleaning staff.

You can't think of any way to defend him? Surely his good moves can at least in theory make him defensible?

I never once said that he hasnt made good deals. he made one less then a week ago.

Ok well maybe I misspoke (typed). People give a passing, "finally, a good move" type of a response when he makes his good moves, but then they are quickly forgotten and it is right back to harping on a move that was made 28 years ago and how bad that was and how bad it hurt the team and can never be recovered from.

Gotta love the attitude that draft picks arent worth as much as 39 year old rentals.
great philosophy.

Not sure exactly what this is in reference too, but I don't think that this philosophy is accurate. In some instances, draft picks are not worth as much as 39 year old rentals. I know that people on here like to think draft picks are incredibly valuable (unless Homer gets one in a trade, then it just isn't), but in reality, the missing piece to a team is worth more than a guy that in 4 years might be a third liner. That's just the truth. The problem is that when a GM (any GM, not just Homer), makes a trade like that at the deadline, there is no way to tell if that player IS the missing piece. But you gotta make that trade if you want to compete. Some trades don't work out the way you want, but at the end of the day, do you really want to stand pat and hope your team as is makes it so that you can keep that draft pick that might maybe one day hopefully crack the top nine?

It just boggles my mind that some folks arent the least bit worried that the Flyers still have one of the worst prospect pools in the entire NHL. Sure there are some guys at the top of our organization rankings but after the first 4 or so it really drops off quick.
the Phantoms have sucked for how long now? yeah who cares because we have a competite team in Philly. oh wait. nmind.

Don't get me wrong, I wish we had better prospects too. But at the end of the day, having better prospects doesn't mean much if those guys never amount to anything. When you are close to contending for a Cup, you have to make the choice of going for it or just going with what you have. Again, do you really want a GM that is going to sit on his hands? Then you'll be saying, WHY DIDN'T GM X MAKE ANY DEADLINE DEALS?! You have to give to get. You won't get the missing piece at the deadline by trading peanuts. It just doesn't work that way. You have to deal picks and prospects to make a run at a Cup. If you don't want to make a run at a Cup, that is a different argument, but I have no problem doing that when the team looks close. This year...I wouldn't do it. Last year, I didn't want to do it. But in year's past, absolutely go for it.

Yeah, having Versteeg for 2 months for a 1st rounder sure was worth it. That didn't look dumb as hell when he was healthy and a good forward for Florida.

Are you saying it was bad to trade for him the first time or to trade him away the other time? I would disagree with both. He seemed like a good fit before he was acquired (young too). And signed past the season for cheap IIRC. But he didn't work out too well. Homer got a 2nd and a 3rd for him. Wasn't great, but he did what it looked like needed to be done.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

im not going to go thru and cut apart my post and quote every damn paragraph DFF so I am just going to start over.
We are critiquing moves made by Holmgren just 2 or 3 years ago. not 28 years ago. where did you get this 28 years number from for **** sakes?
Again I didnt say hasnt Holmgren made good deals. The Grossmann deal was a good trade. I think even the same folks who were against the Kubina deal liked the Grossmann trade.
if there is a hockey trade to be made you can make it. no problem with it.
But when Holmgren bids against himself like the Versteeg deal and the Kubina deal you cant defend it. you cant say oh well its just a draft pick. or 2. Once again has he made good deals? yes, but the bad outweigh the good in my others view around here.
its ok to disagree with some of the moves he has made DFF. I know that goes against your way of thinking but its ok.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You're missing the point DFF, and you're dealing in a lot of hypothetical strawmen instead of addressing some simple facts.

We have finally come to a place where all of Homer's bad moves and questionable tactics have come home to roost, and they're really, REALLY overshadowing the good he's done.

Aside from the impossibly terrible 2010 offseason, the Richards trade is also looking pretty terrible right now. So far we have an average NHL player with still-questionable upside and a guy playing at a bad ECHL level to show for it on offense. We have a team that hasn't come close to recovering in terms of two way play through the lineup as well.

And of course, I've been over how devastating the Leighton signing turned out to be. That was horrible at the time and ended up being even worse in the long term. And it was a move that any 13 year old with decent hockey knowledge could have avoided.

And most recently, we have the mystifying decisions surrounding the coaching debacle.

Edit: as for the prospects, of COURSE they're not going to mean anything if the whole prospect pool is horrible. It sounds like you're trying to dismiss the prospect pool because they won't amount to anything, but the reason they won't amount to anything is Homer abusing it for years.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

im not going to go thru and cut apart my post and quote every damn paragraph DFF so I am just going to start over.

Deal.

We are critiquing moves made by Holmgren just 2 or 3 years ago. not 28 years ago. where did you get this 28 years number from for **** sakes?

Apparently you are unfamiliar with an exaggeration. Essentially, what I was saying is that every time a good move is made, people will point back to things that happened years ago as to negate the good moves he makes. So yes, people acknowledge the good moves briefly, but then get right back to talking about trading an extra draft pick or overpaying for a free agent or something that happened years ago.

Again I didnt say hasnt Holmgren made good deals. The Grossmann deal was a good trade. I think even the same folks who were against the Kubina deal liked the Grossmann trade.
if there is a hockey trade to be made you can make it. no problem with it.
But when Holmgren bids against himself like the Versteeg deal and the Kubina deal you cant defend it. you cant say oh well its just a draft pick. or 2. Once again has he made good deals? yes, but the bad outweigh the good in my others view around here.

Bidding against himself in Versteeg and Holmgren? What should have those two players gotten in a return. Versteeg was a 25 year old 20+ goal scorer still under contract. Do you think that he was going to be had for less than a first and a third? Really? What do you think Matt Read would return if the Flyers traded him today? Less than a first and a third? More? Versteeg was younger, it was at the deadline, and he put up 20 goals in back to back seasons. But yeah, Homer blew it by going after that guy and really overpaid because he probably could have been had for...a second and third? A first and a fourth? Just a second? Maybe just a third? What a dope Homer was!

As for Kubina, sure, that was an overpayment. No doubt.

its ok to disagree with some of the moves he has made DFF. I know that goes against your way of thinking but its ok.

No, I am completely open to disagreeing with moves the management makes and have many times. But unlike the masses on here, I don't lose my mind and call for his head every time a minor overpayment is made. Bad moves have been made. I agree completely.

You're missing the point DFF, and you're dealing in a lot of hypothetical strawmen instead of addressing some simple facts.

Not really. I've addressed all the facts that are thrown out here.

We have finally come to a place where all of Homer's bad moves and questionable tactics have come home to roost, and they're really, REALLY overshadowing the good he's done.

I disagree. This team looked good on paper offensively. They just aren't putting it together. Homer's job is to put together a team on paper. He did that for the most part. The defense is weak, but that can still be worked on.

Aside from the impossibly terrible 2010 offseason, the Richards trade is also looking pretty terrible right now. So far we have an average NHL player with still-questionable upside and a guy playing at a bad ECHL level to show for it on offense. We have a team that hasn't come close to recovering in terms of two way play through the lineup as well.

Simmonds is the ECHL guy, I assume? Come on, its 15 games in. He played very well for the team last year. Brayden Schenn is still 22. If his upside is questionable, then so is the almighty Couturier's. I asked this before and I don't remember what (if anything) you said in response: would you trade Schenn, Simmonds, and a third for Richards right now? Would you do the trade over again back when it went down? If you answered no and yes respectively, then shut up about calling this trade in to question.

And of course, I've been over how devastating the Leighton signing turned out to be. That was horrible at the time and ended up being even worse in the long term. And it was a move that any 13 year old with decent hockey knowledge could have avoided.

I'm with you there. Bad idea. I was wrong on that.

And most recently, we have the mystifying decisions surrounding the coaching debacle.

Once again, agreed.

Edit: as for the prospects, of COURSE they're not going to mean anything if the whole prospect pool is horrible. It sounds like you're trying to dismiss the prospect pool because they won't amount to anything, but the reason they won't amount to anything is Homer abusing it for years.

I was dismissing all the theoretical picks that were traded. Statistics aren't in their favor for amounting to anything.

 

[Beef Invictus]

A ten percent chance of a 2rd rounder playing 200 games, or whatever it is, is a lot better than the 0% tied to not having a pick.

It's also easier to develop young players if they can play on a good AHL team instead of a trainwreck.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

if Holmgren traded all his picks for 1 dollar DFF would approve.
I mean hey Holmgren could put that 1 dollar twords a cup of coffee.
those picks could turn into NOTHING!

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

A ten percent chance of a 2rd rounder playing 200 games, or whatever it is, is a lot better than the 0% tied to not having a pick.

It's also easier to develop young players if they can play on a good AHL team instead of a trainwreck.

I think the draft pick thing is all about how you look at it. Neither of us are really right about it, but I would rather trade the pick for the small chance that it increases your chances to win now when you are already close than keep the pick and have the small chance that that pick increases your chances to win down the road. Obviously, if you are not close, making those moves is a bad thing. But if you are in the hunt and you have a chance to improve your team, I'm all for it. Obivously, this doesn't mean I am in favor of simply trading picks away for scraps, but a trade like the Versteeg deal, I do every single day of the week.

Also, you didn't answer my questions about the Richards trade...

Would you trade Wayne Simmonds, Brayden Schenn, and a third round pick to the Kings for Mike Richards today?

If you were the GM a couple years ago would you make the same trade or keep Richards?

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I would of kept Richards and made the Carter trade.

10 times out of 10.

AINEFC