OT: Holland's worst blunder

[bellringer77]

If you look at it as a complete sequence of events instead of just the Nielsen signing, then yeah it ranks pretty high up there. I just changed my vote, lol.

lol glad I could be of service

 

[Ricelund]

Won't participate further in this thread, I find it stupid and honestly would close it if I didn't feel like that is kind of an abuse of power. Why we need to talk about Hossa over a decade later or parts of our team that aren't even here just to bitch and moan is beyond me. But I guess enjoy another thread this gang, I am out. Those talking about tools you never use, I wish I could actually put a thread on ignore.

Whatever, man. No one is trashing the guy personally. We’re talking about his worst move as GM. He had plenty of great ones, too. Pro sports are for entertainment.

 

[bellringer77]

What bothered me the most was that it was a move to acquire a player who:

1. Likely had no interest in the Red Wings to begin with
2. Would not have vaulted the team into a contender, and would have further prolonged the rebuild
3. Would have hamstrung the team with a cap hit not commensurate with his play (I also do not believe Stamkos would have taken the same contract to play here, or anywhere else outside of Tampa)

I agree. I mean he showed either a lack of caring or a lack of awareness no matter which way you look at it. And it would still be going on if he was still GM

 

[DoMakc]

From what I recall, it could have been done if Holland only had used trades.

• Cleary had a 2.8M cap hit - replaced with Tomas Tatar, we could have saved 2.8M - 690K = 2.11M.
• Filppula made 3M - replaced with Jan Mursak would have saved 3M-623K = 2,4M
• Todd Bertuzzi made 1,5M
• 2.11 + 2.4 + 1.5 = 6.01M
• Hossa's cap hit was 5.27M in Chicago
• Bertuzzi scored 16 goals, Filppula scored 16 and Cleary scored 26
• Hossa, young Tatar and Jan Mursak instead of Bertuzzi, Filppula and Cleary - I think we would have been closer to contending
• Maybe we even could have gained some assets for Filppula, who was still young and promising
• We could have kept Franzen AND Hossa, and even given Hossa a higher salery than Chicago did
• Hindsight is 20/20, but many of us said this back in 2009

Sorry, but that's fantasy hockey fueled by hindsight.

Tomas Tatar was drafted in 2009, in 2009-10 he was a 0,55 ppg player in AHL as 18 year old. You cannot pencil him into line up. Jan Mursak was not NHL material, especially he was not a NHL center. Basically you want to eliminate the forward depth, center depth, you subtructed 58 goals and added how many? You need Hossa to score 40, which he didn't manage in 2009/10, Mursak and Tatar - at least 10, which sounds not very realistic. And you still didn't replace Filppula properly. Sorry, no Stanley Cup for you.

But even if we assume it works, your calculation is still incorrect. You still have to pay replacements, and in Tatar's case it's not a league minimum. So you have to subtruct from 6 M "available" at least 1 M, realistically 1,2 M. You end up with 4.8 M. Sorry, no Hossa for you.

 

[Gniwder]

I see a few people say the Weiss move wasn't bad... I think it was horrible. Guy was coming off an injury plagued season before we signed him and expected to be a 50P-60P guy when he was never gonna get the same minutes he did in Florida. Hell, he was not even health going into the season... someone how our medical staff let him play.

And this is where another one of Holland's blunder comes into play... the whole fitness program for the Red Wings organization.

Pretty obvious that the medical and training staff downplayed injuries too much. As GM, Holland is ultimately responsible for the staff. I know Stevie's been revamping the training staff, not sure if he's replaced any of the team doctors (or maybe they've already been replaced, I dunno)

 

[kliq]

Hossa chose to walk though.

Can you post a link where Hossa says he didn’t want to re-sign?

 

[kliq]

While I agree with you, that this was the move with the biggest impact, I don't think it had Stanley Cup significance. It wasn't Hossa vs. not having Hossa, it was Hossa vs. Franzen, because you cannot sign both of them. Franzen was actually a good playoff performer, from my recollection he was actually their best forward in 2009 and 2010. I don't think upgrading Franzen to Hossa would be deciding factor in winning another cup, especially when thier window actually closed in 2011 after Rafalski retiring and Lidstom basically playing his last great season.

I’ve always thought of this as fan fiction, I don’t believe that Holland couldn’t have signed hossa and franzen if he made other moves.

 

[FabricDetails]

Alright dude, congrats, you're the first to hit the ignore list in my decade long history on HFBoards. Pour one out, you've accomplished the impossible.

You're so obviously not a real fan interested in having a good talk with others and just here to derail literally every thread you poke your head in with these sensational takes you know will force people to hit reply and engage you until everyone gives up because you're not actually interested in honest discourse. Later, nerd.

Hey man, don't hate on the hardworking folks generating ad revenue traffic for HFBoards, man. They pay the server bills and developers... in theory.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Can you post a link where Hossa says he didn’t want to re-sign?

Marian Hossa: Signing with Blackhawks was 'best decision in my career'

 

[Enders Game]

Other: Failing to sell the farm to chase more championships until Lidstrom retired. Continuing the playoff streak was the worst thing he was a part of and some of that is due to ownership but still. That takes the cake over Hossa and that horrid Abdelkader contract. Only person that approved that was Julie

 

[Sweetpotato]

The whole Nielson saga. Moving assets and cap(Dats?) to sign a dud, missing out on Chych.

As an oil fan, I was optimistic when Holland came to Edmonton....I'm sorry I didn't listen XD

 

[dragonballgtz]

Pretty obvious that the medical and training staff downplayed injuries too much. As GM, Holland is ultimately responsible for the staff. I know Stevie's been revamping the training staff, not sure if he's replaced any of the team doctors (or maybe they've already been replaced, I dunno)

Yep, I remember there was a tweet mentioning Yzerman was kind of shock that the Red Wings strength and conditioning program remained largely unchanged since his playing days.

 

[Air Budd Dwyer]

I think it’s the sum of most of his moves after Lidstrom retired, combined with trying to keep the pointless streak going that resulted in one big blunder.

I was actually a huge fan of the Hatcher signing as he was a player I coveted for years. A big, mean, crease clearing defenseman; perfect for the pre-lockout NHL. Plus, I think Hatcher was just a cool name. Then of course he tears his ACL like a week into the season lol. He still made it back for the playoffs but he just wasn’t as effective coming off that injury, needed more time to heal.

 

[Retire91]

I don't think it's any single move that exposes the true nature of what was going on. It was each move collectively screaming the objective to maintain declining mediocrity in the most conservative way possible. When lidstrom retired and we didn't rebuild I pretty much gave up on being a wings fan for a while and pretty much did nothing but complain for the rest of the phase until Yzerman came aboard and implemented real tangible rebuilding change.

If we have to pick one I went with "Abdelkader extension" this move is pretty much the poster child of the second half of Holland's tenure. There is not a single iota of defense for this contract. The amount was not all that bad but how on earth do you sign a grinder to 7 years. It was insanity.

I could go on an on and on but you all probably know what I will say. I'll wrap up with saying I personally believe 2010-2019 should nullify Holland's HOF consideration. I am not a complete hater I appreciate the Holland taking care of a solid roster period. I just loath the sustained decline in mediocrity period. Every off-season was gut wrernching.

But I think the worst of it was all the Holland defense during those years. All the, its a good trade, it didn't give up much, its not all that bad of a signing, trading down for Jurco XO was genius. Years and years of that B.S.

 

[Air Budd Dwyer]

Yep, I remember there was a tweet mentioning Yzerman was kind of shock that the Red Wings strength and conditioning program remained largely unchanged since his playing days.

I think that shows a clear lack of understanding of fitness and training from a dinosaur (Holland) who thinks Jack LaLanne is on the cutting edge of fitness.

 

[kliq]

Marian Hossa: Signing with Blackhawks was 'best decision in my career'

This is an article of Hossa saying that in hindsight going to the Hawks was the best decision of his career. In a world where Detroit doesnt offer him a contract, this article is identical to what it is.

 

[Pavels Dog]

This is an article of Hossa saying that in hindsight going to the Hawks was the best decision of his career. In a world where Detroit doesnt offer him a contract, this article is identical to what it is.

"My agent, when we tried to decide what is the best opportunity, what is the best way to play, what team has the best chance and also what team has the most potential to be good for a long time, Chicago was the No. 1 choice."

I really doubt there was ever a reality where Hossa re-signs in Detroit.

 

[kliq]

"My agent, when we tried to decide what is the best opportunity, what is the best way to play, what team has the best chance and also what team has the most potential to be good for a long time, Chicago was the No. 1 choice."

I really doubt there was ever a reality where Hossa re-signs in Detroit.

I'm not going to debate with you unless you can show me something that shows Hossa saying that he was offered a contract by Detroit and turned it down, or that he never even entertained the idea of going to Detroit, and not a 1 year deal. My entire original point was that Holland should have signed Hossa long term. I do believe Hossa re-signs here if he is offered a long term contract, however Holland was not going to offer that.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I'm not going to debate with you unless you can show me something that shows Hossa saying that he was offered a contract by Detroit and turned it down, or that he never even entertained the idea of going to Detroit, and not a 1 year deal. My entire original point was that Holland should have signed Hossa long term. I do believe Hossa re-signs here if he is offered a long term contract, however Holland was not going to offer that.

I mean they had contract talks. Hossa was just offered more money+term from a team on the upswing with more cap space. Would have been extremely difficult to compete with that.

 

[MBH]

Sorry, but that's fantasy hockey fueled by hindsight.

Tomas Tatar was drafted in 2009, in 2009-10 he was a 0,55 ppg player in AHL as 18 year old. You cannot pencil him into line up. Jan Mursak was not NHL material, especially he was not a NHL center. Basically you want to eliminate the forward depth, center depth, you subtructed 58 goals and added how many? You need Hossa to score 40, which he didn't manage in 2009/10, Mursak and Tatar - at least 10, which sounds not very realistic. And you still didn't replace Filppula properly. Sorry, no Stanley Cup for you.

But even if we assume it works, your calculation is still incorrect. You still have to pay replacements, and in Tatar's case it's not a league minimum. So you have to subtruct from 6 M "available" at least 1 M, realistically 1,2 M. You end up with 4.8 M. Sorry, no Hossa for you.

Who cares who replaces Cleary?
You're getting Hossa.

Helm and Abdelakder were 22 years old in 9-10 and ready for the NHL.
Helm was already a Cleary level guy.
You've got Patrick Eaves in 9-10 playing for near the NHL minimum. He replaces cleary.
He could step into a cleary role.
You could try the same thing with Drew Miller.
You could try Leino in more of a scoring role.

9-10 with Hossa instead of Cleary/Bertuzzi/Williams

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Holmstrom (the line that NEVER should have been broken up)
Franzen-Filppula-Hossa (Eaves/Helm/Leino etc filling in when Franzen was hurt)
Abdelkader-Helm-Miller
Maltby-Draper-May

The Bertuzzi-Cleary days were the beginning of the end. And I liked Bertuzzi, but he was DONE.

 

[Bench]

Who cares who replaces Cleary?

 

[MBH]

I’ve always thought of this as fan fiction, I don’t believe that Holland couldn’t have signed hossa and franzen if he made other moves.

Trade cleary. Don't sign Bertuzzi/Williams
That's $5.8M
Hossa was $5,275.
Replace Williams with a $500,000 signing (like Eaves/Miller)

With just a little LTIR bullshit, you're in easy.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Full Disclaimer: I'm not defending the guy, just providing some long forgotten context.

On the Hossa thing, what people seem to gloss over is that what really killed the ability to re-sign him wasn't Franzen or Cleary getting extended first, it was the cap only going up $100k for 09-10 after it had gone up anywhere from $4-6M in each of the previous 3 offseasons.

IIRC, it was reported that Holland made a last ditch offer for Hossa after the tiny cap raise was announced, but he admitted to the media that he kind of knew it wouldn't be competitive compared to what he'd get on the open market.

Then their ability to make any sort of meaningful attempt to replace Hossa (and Samuelsson, Conklin, etc. etc.) was put on hold while they had to sit on their hands and wait for the NHL and IIHF to figure out the Jiri Hudler KHL vs. NHL arbitration reward debacle.

IMO, the real blunder with Hossa wasn't letting him walk (especially considering he wanted him to stay and made attempts to keep him around), it was signing him to that silly one year rental contract in the first place. Had Holland instead given Hossa some term right off the bat, he would've been in a position to eventually trade a valuable forward for some futures that could help keep the pipeline stocked considering it was thin after graduating a lot of their top prospects to the NHL from 2006-09.

As for Holland in general, I've often thought that his undoing came about from a case of hubris after almost winning 2 Cups in the cap era. The institution of the salary cap was supposed to put an end to teams being put together like the Wings in the pre-cap era, but Holland kept his team on top of the league. After a 1.5-2 year hiatus, he was even able to get back to making the big deadline trades and UFA signings he relied on before the lockout. And this was all the while he was being lauded for draft wizardry in transitioning to two elite forwards that were late round steals and filling holes on the roster with other home grown talent, budget reclamation projects and a big late blooming Swede turning into a goal scoring machine, the type of talent they could now sign as free agents. It was as if Holland sat back thinking he'd always have some Hakan sourced gems in their back pocket, and with the UFA age gradually dropping to 27YO, the market would always be that familiar Macy's he could walk into and find great to elite guys willing to take less money to come to Detroit, or current or former Wings ready to take discounts as well.

I always remember a radio interview with Holland that came after the Hossa signing. He was just soaking up the praise and really selling how the guy took one year and less money because he can win here with this great organization and blah blah. Then when someone brought up the implications of the one year deal and the rest of the team potentially hitting a cap crunch, Holland's response was something like, "Yea, well let's win this Cup and then we'll see what happens. If we gotta go with the kids, then whatever."

 

[GettingYourMoms]

drafting Zadina instead of Joel Farabee and Rasmussen instead of Necas/Suzuki

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Yet you go around and around trying to tear down Steve Yzerman for the same shit. Oh, but Yzerman drafted Brett Connolly! And he signed Ryan Callahan to a dogshit contract!

Yes, Ken Holland was a fabulous GM for a very long time and most of his moves, even during the worst of times with the Wings, made logical sense at some level. He's still a good hockey mind. But you can't ignore that he did jack shit to bail out the water on a sinking ship in Detroit and now everything that you complain about with us not having talent and not getting better was directly caused by attaching several boat anchors to the team. We had to wait those out or buy them out because those contracts were so damn bad.

Our lack of talent has nothing to do with contracts. How can you be so disconnected? There is zero correlation between Abby's deal and the lack of taleny on this roster. Zero.
I point out Yzerman's blunders because there seems to be some delusion that he is petfect and so far I'm not seeing perfection in this rebuild. People talking about turning the corner? That's not reality. We're nowhere close to turning a corner. We are at least 5 years away from turning a corner if we get lucky and Yzerman better hold on to some draft picks or we ain't getting lucky. Teams like Arizona and Columbus have acquired more draft capital while Yzerman trades for rental Nick Leddy or traded 3 picks to draft a goalie 15th overall. Yzerman is being praised for trading Mantha for what amounts to AA 2.0. Holland would be getting crucified in this very thread if he made the same moves.
So I'm not trying to tear down Yzerman. I'm throwing out a bit of perspective because posts I see have completely ignored perspective.