OT: Holland's worst blunder

[Bench]

So explain in detail how you came up with 7-10 years.

 

[Oddbob]

In reverse, Holland's best move as GM of the Red Wings was becoming the GM of the Edmonton Oilers.

 

[Gniwder]

Ask yourself why Washington made that deal. Vrana is not as good as Mantha.
I suspect the move to get Cossa was a massive error that sets the rebuild back significantly.

Mantha has more potential, there is no doubt about it. However, he will probably never reach that potential because he severely lacks motivation. He appears to have no interest in winning, the only time he's motivated is when a team pisses him off.

Washington made the deal because it allowed them to get value for a player that didn't fit their system, and also a cap dump. Keep in mind the same GM also sold Burakovsky and Chandler Stephens for cheap. Both of them are producing solid second line numbers with their new team despite only getting 4th line duties in DC. The team doesn't utilize fast wingers well with their possession system Also, if GMBM was such a great GM, he wouldn't have signed Panik to begin with, I hated that signing.

That's interesting because Yzerman got rid of the scouting director that produced the Seider pick.

I already told you Stevie kept all of the amateur scouts for Europe. Seider is European, and if you look at Stevie's first draft, it was almost entirely Euros. I doubt Wright had much to do with anything hat draft, I predicted the NA scouting staff would be revamped on that draft day.

You really need to stop repeating facts that don't support your point because it makes you look dense.

Edit: I'm going to read a few more posts then probably put you on ignore because it's pretty obvious you have nothing to add here. Worse yet, you keep repeating the same point even when someone corrects you. Obviously you're not digesting any facts, so there's no point in discussing anything with you.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

So explain in detail how you came up with 7-10 years.

Well we haven't had a single Yzerman draft pick play an NHL game yet. We have yet to draft a #1 center and if/when we do he will need time to develop. Being that Yzerman is making moves like rental Nick Leddy we are likely to have slightly worse odds of getting that player at all.

It is very possible that one or both of Cossa/Edvinsson end up being a bust. Even if they both make it we're looking at years before they debut and years after that for development. Most players peak around 26/27. You draft 17 year olds. It's basic math.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Mantha has more potential, there is no doubt about it. However, he will probably never reach that potential because he severely lacks motivation. He appears to have no interest in winning, the only time he's motivated is when a team pisses him off.

Washington made the deal because it allowed them to get value for a player that didn't fit their system, and also a cap dump. Keep in mind the same GM also sold Burakovsky and Chandler Stephens for cheap. Both of them are producing solid second line numbers with their new team despite only getting 4th line duties in DC. The team doesn't utilize fast wingers well with their possession system Also, if GMBM was such a great GM, he wouldn't have signed Panik to begin with, I hated that signing.



I already told you Stevie kept all of the amateur scouts for Europe. Seider is European, and if you look at Stevie's first draft, it was almost entirely Euros. I doubt Wright had much to do with anything hat draft, I predicted the NA scouting staff would be revamped on that draft day.

You really need to stop repeating facts that don't support your point because it makes you look dense.

Edit: I'm going to read a few more posts then probably put you on ignore because it's pretty obvious you have nothing to add here. Worse yet, you keep repeating the same point even when someone corrects you. Obviously you're not digesting any facts, so there's no point in discussing anything with you.

Corrects me? I suspect the Dunning/Kruger effect has led you to actually believe that to be true.

It was all the scouting director's fault when Yzerman picked Connoly but the scouting director had nothing to do with Yzerman's brilliance in picking Seider.
I've been "corrected" with "facts".

 

[cjm502]

I am now "ignoring" my second person all time after 11 years on HF. The conglomerate of trash being spewed post after post has reached its limit. I generally appreciate opposing viewpoints, but there is a point where those opposing viewpoints reach such a level of stupidity they hold zero value. When someone's posts hold zero value, there is no longer any point in reading those posts. Trashing Yzerman and praising Holland at every chance possible is one of two things, pure ignorance or pure trolling. I'm not a huge fan of either.

And for the sake of relevance to the thread, I'm going with the Danny Cleary saga only because of the amount of sheer frustration it brought. There may have been more detrimental moves, but the Danny Cleary saga was infuriating.

 

[Gniwder]

Corrects me? I suspect the Dunning/Kruger effect has led you to actually believe that to be true.

It was all the scouting director's fault when Yzerman picked Connoly but the scouting director had nothing to do with Yzerman's brilliance in picking Seider.
I've been "corrected" with "facts".

It's pretty obvious Stevie was going to revamp the NA scouts based on that draft. A few people mocked me during the draft when I said it, and then after it happened everyone told me it was obvious, lol.

You can't see the obvious, then goodbye. Wright had nothing to do with Seider pick.

As for what happened in Tampa, I have no idea. I am not a TB fan like you.

Also, Seider is a Hakan pick more than anything else. He hasn't been hitting on all his picks lately, but he's also had some good ones.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

It's pretty obvious Stevie was going to revamp the NA scouts based on that draft. A few people mocked me during the draft when I said it, and then after it happened everyone told me it was obvious, lol.

You can't see the obvious, then goodbye. Wright had nothing to do with Seider pick.

As for what happened in Tampa, I have no idea. I am not a TB fan like you.

Also, Seider is a Hakan pick more than anything else. He hasn't been hitting on all his picks lately, but he's also had some good ones.

Most of the time GMs get directly involved with top 10 picks. That would mean Yzerman like was directly involved/responsible for the Connolly, Koekkoek, Drouin, Seider and Edvinsson picks. So far one looks likely really, really good, 2 are terrible, one is mediocre and 1 yet unknown.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

I'm aware that Johnny had a 5 mile headstart on me in the marathon. But I'm just comparing the success of where we stand. It doesn't matter if I've covered 10 miles and Johnny 6... he's still ahead of me and clearly, all that matters is an arbitrary valuation at some random time.

Reading comprehension would help your argument greatly.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

I think all of these grievances have been aired and re-aired about 100 times at this point.

Maybe some of his recent Edmonton moves prompted this thread, I don't know, but it's 1000% unnecessary if we're being honest.

Spot on Sir!

 

[InjuredChoker]

Most of the time GMs get directly involved with top 10 picks. That would mean Yzerman like was directly involved/responsible for the Connolly, Koekkoek, Drouin, Seider and Edvinsson picks. So far one looks likely really, really good, 2 are terrible, one is mediocre and 1 yet unknown.

not sure what happened with connolly, but yzerman trusted al murray and let him pick the players at the draft.

 

[Gniwder]

Most of the time GMs get directly involved with top 10 picks. That would mean Yzerman like was directly involved/responsible for the Connolly, Koekkoek, Drouin, Seider and Edvinsson picks. So far one looks likely really, really good, 2 are terrible, one is mediocre and 1 yet unknown.

I agree, Stevie has said it himself that he gets involved in the first 2 rounds. Considering 2010 was his first draft after being in the job for a couple of months as a rookie GM, we don't know how much involvement he had in the Connolly pick. I certainly would think he was heavily involved in the other picks, but I don't follow TB, so I don't care.

Like I said before, you're changing the subject here. Start your own thread on the TB board if you want to beat Stevie's dead horses.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I found the perfect song that expresses my feelings here.

Around 1:44-2:10

Give up, give up
You can not do it back in
Give up, give up
Tune in, and slam the door
You do not care what you're saying
Let us very angry

 

[FMichael]

I personally thought bringing back Hasek when we had Cujo was a poor decision.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Well we haven't had a single Yzerman draft pick play an NHL game yet. We have yet to draft a #1 center and if/when we do he will need time to develop. Being that Yzerman is making moves like rental Nick Leddy we are likely to have slightly worse odds of getting that player at all.

It is very possible that one or both of Cossa/Edvinsson end up being a bust. Even if they both make it we're looking at years before they debut and years after that for development. Most players peak around 26/27. You draft 17 year olds. It's basic math.

Why won’t you acknowledge that it’s just as , if not more likely, that Cossa/Edvisson end up a #1G/#1D?

 

[TheProdigalOne]

I think inevitably Yzerman will have to trade the next age group of players (Bert, Vrana, Hronek, Fabbri ect...) because thus far he has failed to acquire the necessary talent and he squandered significant capital on Cossa. Building around a goalie doesn't generally work out. It's a good way to end up with disproportionate cap wrapped up in your goalie on the way to being a middling team. Of course that's assuming the pick isn't a bust which is a likely scenario.
Look at teams that tanked to rebuild in recent years.
Colorado
Ottawa
Toronto
Buffalo
Jersey
LA
Anaheim
NYR
All acquired more high end talent quicker than we have.
Yzerman may eventually get it together. He probably will but we are a very long way from emerging out of the rebuild. Likely 7-10 years.
Now the lazy way to interpret this is that I am somehow bashing Yzerman. That's not accurate. I'm basing my opinion on objective observation as opposed to blind faith. The same is true about my opinion of Holland who I would argue is one of the best GMs ofnhis era. One of the best all time.

Every single one of those teams has at least 1 top 3 pick in their system. Most of them, 2 or 3. No shit they have more top end talent. Troll harder bro lol

 

[Gniwder]

Every single one of those teams has at least 1 top 3 pick in their system. Most of them, 2 or 3. No shit they have more top end talent. Troll harder bro lol

The irony of the comment is that the rebuild is taking so long is because Holland wasted a bunch of 1st round picks.
- Cholo: bust
- Svech: bust
- Raz: Bottom 6 forward
- Zadina: ? Last season sucked, but he's still young
- 2006, 09, 11 & 12: traded
- Sheahan: 4th liner
- McCollum: bust
- Smith: He's Brendan Smith, lol

Really funny to criticize Stevie when none of his picks have played in the NHL yet. Can't say I liked the Raymond pick though.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Why won’t you acknowledge that it’s just as , if not more likely, that Cossa/Edvisson end up a #1G/#1D?

Because it's not. Cossa in particular has a very high potential to not reach the level expected for a 15th overall pick. That's why so few goalies are taken that early. Most GMs know better.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Every single one of those teams has at least 1 top 3 pick in their system. Most of them, 2 or 3. No shit they have more top end talent. Troll harder bro lol

So since we lost the lottery we will just go win cups without elite players? Yeah, I don't think so.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I am now "ignoring" my second person all time after 11 years on HF. The conglomerate of trash being spewed post after post has reached its limit. I generally appreciate opposing viewpoints, but there is a point where those opposing viewpoints reach such a level of stupidity they hold zero value. When someone's posts hold zero value, there is no longer any point in reading those posts. Trashing Yzerman and praising Holland at every chance possible is one of two things, pure ignorance or pure trolling. I'm not a huge fan of either.

And for the sake of relevance to the thread, I'm going with the Danny Cleary saga only because of the amount of sheer frustration it brought. There may have been more detrimental moves, but the Danny Cleary saga was infuriating.

I don't think the Dan Cleary saga was that huge a deal, but what was most ridiculous about it was the amount of loyalty to a bottom 6 guy that had about 3 years as a 2nd liner. It didn't cripple the team but definitely showed us that Holland was much less competent than you'd expect a Stanley Cup winning GM to be.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I don't think the Dan Cleary saga was that huge a deal, but what was most ridiculous about it was the amount of loyalty to a bottom 6 guy that had about 3 years as a 2nd liner. It didn't cripple the team but definitely showed us that Holland was much less competent than you'd expect a Stanley Cup winning GM to be.

It was quite literally the Wings circumventing the cap. If it wasn't for Dan Cleary and the league just breezed past it, we could easily have faced draft pick penalties. They signed him to a 3 year deal in that one offseason that he had the PTO from Philly, but just agreed on whatever cap was left annually. It wasn't worth looking into by the league, but come on. With as "substance over form" as they like to try to be... the Wings violated the cap rules to sign f***ing Dan Cleary. If you're for a fair application of the rules in all circumstances... we lucked out there.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

It was quite literally the Wings circumventing the cap. If it wasn't for Dan Cleary and the league just breezed past it, we could easily have faced draft pick penalties. They signed him to a 3 year deal in that one offseason that he had the PTO from Philly, but just agreed on whatever cap was left annually. It wasn't worth looking into by the league, but come on. With as "substance over form" as they like to try to be... the Wings violated the cap rules to sign f***ing Dan Cleary. If you're for a fair application of the rules in all circumstances... we lucked out there.

You're 100% right. As dumb as the move was it didn't cripple the team, though. It just showed that Holland was not as smart as everyone thought he was and was the foreshadowing that he would spend money on loyalty over skill.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

You're 100% right. As dumb as the move was it didn't cripple the team, though. It just showed that Holland was not as smart as everyone thought he was and was the foreshadowing that he would spend money on loyalty over skill.

No, that cat was done out of the bag by that point. What showed he wasn't as smart as everyone thought was 2012. When Suter shaked his ass for them and they wrote him into their top pairing with pen, while Suter was actually bilking Craig Leopold out of 98M, the Wings were left with a bag and only Carlo f***ing Colaiacovo on the shelf. And then in 2014 when they had fully decided to move on from Quincey, only to be rebuffed by... Dan Boyle, Matt Niskanen, Anton Stralman, Stephane Robidas, Tom Gilbert, and others... they came back to the guy they couldn't wait to dump and gave him an extra 750k for his wait.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Because it's not. Cossa in particular has a very high potential to not reach the level expected for a 15th overall pick. That's why so few goalies are taken that early. Most GMs know better.

Why is it “more likely” that Edvinsson ends up a bust rather than a top 3D?
The last three drafts a goalie has been taken around Cossa. Askarov, Knight both look great. Knight is probably already Florida’s starting goalie.

Vasilevski was taken in the first and is probably the best in the league.

You’re calling two guys a bust like one month after being drafted You can’t possibly be that oblivious to how ridiculous you sound?

 

[nbwingsfan]

So since we lost the lottery we will just go win cups without elite players? Yeah, I don't think so.

You’re critiquing Yzerman for not being where those other teams are but ignoring that Detroit hasn’t had a top 2 pick and true franchise player available to draft.
Despite that, he still may have found one in a gem with Seider. That’s a lot more impressive than just being given Matthews or McDavid