OT: Holland's worst blunder

[GMR]

I personally thought bringing back Hasek when we had Cujo was a poor decision.

That was a precursor to the Jay Leno / Conan O'Brien fiasco. I still feel bad for how Cujo was treated by the Wings. They paid him a lot but treated him like a jobber.

 

[FMichael]

That was a precursor to the Jay Leno / Conan O'Brien fiasco. I still feel bad for how Cujo was treated by the Wings. They paid him a lot but treated him like a jobber.

I felt Cujo should've stayed in Toronto, but Eddie Belfour did an admirable job I guess for the Leafs.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I felt Cujo should've stayed in Toronto, but Eddie Belfour did an admirable job I guess for the Leafs.

There was a thread on the history of hockey forum where someone pulled up an interview of Cujo stating that one of his biggest regrets is not sticking with Toronto.

You know, I think that Belfour would have been a better fit for that 2003 and 2004 Wings team than Cujo. Not as good as Hasek but still would have been better than Cujo.

 

[FMichael]

There was a thread on the history of hockey forum where someone pulled up an interview of Cujo stating that one of his biggest regrets is not sticking with Toronto.

You know, I think that Belfour would have been a better fit for that 2003 and 2004 Wings team than Cujo. Not as good as Hasek but still would have been better than Cujo.

Hmm - 1st Chelios - then Eddie the Eagle (regarding former Blackhawks)...Then again wasn't there still some lingering stink regarding his Dallas hotel escapades?

In all seriousness he might've been a better performer for us (hindsight being 20/20).

Remember how both Cujo/Hasek got injured and we relied on Legace?

 

[Bench]

You know, I think that Belfour would have been a better fit for that 2003 and 2004 Wings team than Cujo. Not as good as Hasek but still would have been better than Cujo.

Belfour to the Wings was my white whale.

 

[ShelbyZ]

I had an epiphany about Hossa... What if the blunder was actually signing him in the first place?

If you consider that:

A. His last ditch effort to retain Hossa likely lead to his lowballing and departures of Samuelsson and Hudler (a departure that gave them a whole 'nother headache).

B. Holland did kind of (correctly) predict from the beginning that Hossa's one year deal could end up just being a rental.

Then what if instead of blowing nearly every dime of cap space he had on renting one elite player in free agency (which left them with no space to make any other notable upgrades or even recall decent players for most of the season without someone going on LTIR), he signed a reasonably priced upgrade over the outgoing Dallas Drake and then saved $4-5M (which is like $16-20M at the deadline) to eventually commemorate the 10th anniversary of his wild 1999 trade deadline and brought in 2, 3 or even 4 secondary pieces to bolster the line up at the deadline?

They could've added another top 4 D (Schneider, Derek Morris, Leopold and Montador) which would've pushed Lilja or Lebda to the pressbox and probably kept Chelios and Meech there for the duration of the playoffs... Could've brought in some decent center depth (Domenic Moore, Vermette and Pahlsson) for the bottom 6 so they don't have to rely on Kris Draper playing injured, extra grit (Moen), and some secondary scoring depth (Guerin, Recchi, Antropov, Kotalik and Erik Cole... Olli Jokinen and Justin Williams also moved, but had remaining term that likely wouldn't work for Detroit).

I'm sure the fan base would've been pissed at all the assets traded away, but given the assets they had at the time, it probably would've been long forgiven by now.... Aside from Helm, Abdelkader, Ericsson, Smith and probably Howard (an eye popping list in and of itself...), their list of "top prospects" at the time consisted mostly of notable future gems such as Kindl, Leino, Daniel Larsson, McCollum, Dick Axelsson, Jan Mursak, Cory Emmerton, Evan McGrath, Matias Ritola, and Joakim Andersson.... And on top of that, I'm sure some teams still saw upside in a 24YO Derek Meech buried behind a solid top 4, and the Wings also still had their 2009 1st rounder, which they would use to eventually trade down and select Ferraro and Nestrasil...

 

[ShelbyZ]

There was a thread on the history of hockey forum where someone pulled up an interview of Cujo stating that one of his biggest regrets is not sticking with Toronto.

You know, I think that Belfour would have been a better fit for that 2003 and 2004 Wings team than Cujo. Not as good as Hasek but still would have been better than Cujo.

Hmm - 1st Chelios - then Eddie the Eagle (regarding former Blackhawks)...Then again wasn't there still some lingering stink regarding his Dallas hotel escapades?

In all seriousness he might've been a better performer for us (hindsight being 20/20).

Remember how both Cujo/Hasek got injured and we relied on Legace?

Belfour to the Wings was my white whale.

I remember secretly hoping Joseph would stay in Toronto and the Wings would have to settle on Belfour. I enjoyed his antics with the Stars, he was more proven in the playoffs, and I kind of had a hunch that his down year had more to do with the shit show in Dallas around Hitchcock and the boneheaded moves they made the summer before. But most of all, his play against the Avs was like Jimmy Howard at MSG, but if he was taking that NZT drug from the movie Limitless.

Plus, given what we know about Belfour and his treatment of goalies that threatened his spot, the Wings would've had a lot more to worry about than a guy wearing his practice jersey inside out. It might have even been downright entertaining.

Though, the scary thing with a hypothetical Belfour over Joseph signing is that Belfour's salary was a good bit lower that Joseph's (and might've been over lower had he signed in Detroit), so he would've been easier to move. That and/or the likelihood that he would be much more toxic when Hasek returned might've made the Wings more desperate to get rid of him than they were with Joseph (though IIRC it was an injury/surgery that helped keep Joseph around aside from his huge contract). That would've left the Wings with Hasek and Legace... which means the Wings would've been left with Legace...

 

[ricky0034]

as far as Abdelkader goes I would argue that Helm was worse on the grounds that it took place afterwards and demonstrated that Holland learned absolutely nothing from the Abdelkader deal

 

[MBH]

as far as Abdelkader goes I would argue that Helm was worse on the grounds that it took place afterwards and demonstrated that Holland learned absolutely nothing from the Abdelkader deal

It was like 9 months later.
And Abdelkader did go 19-23-42 that year playing mostly with Z.
Helm went 13-13-26

 

[Gniwder]

as far as Abdelkader goes I would argue that Helm was worse on the grounds that it took place afterwards and demonstrated that Holland learned absolutely nothing from the Abdelkader deal

Their wives are friends. If you want a big raise at work, suck up to the boss' wife. (I don't mean banging her though, that's how you get fired.)

 

[FabricDetails]

The time is now, apparently.

Drawing his own line in the sand. Keep doing you, Kenny.

 

[kliq]

That was a precursor to the Jay Leno / Conan O'Brien fiasco. I still feel bad for how Cujo was treated by the Wings. They paid him a lot but treated him like a jobber.

Ya that move pissed me of the most. Cujo was my fav goalie of all time, and I was so happy when he came here only to see him treated like shit for a washed up Hasek.

 

[Retire91]

It's still the abdelkader deal for me because as bad as all these moves were that destroyed the team, at least every off season we could pretend the rebuild could begin.

When he signed a grinder to a 7 year top 6 deal it exposed just how long the commitment to sustained decline to the absolute bottom was going to be. The Abdelkader deal not only was a bad deal before it was signed, it also locked in years of unwatchable hockey with no hope for a wings fan in sight.

When he traded down and gave up a top pairing D in the draft so that he could move Datsyuk's contract to sign Weiss I wasn't even surprised. I was mad as heck but not the least bit surprised. Because the Abdelkader deal secured a slow roll to the complete bottom before the rebuild would start by instituting a culture of conservative mediocrity.

Not rebuilding to the point of insanity is a bigger legacy of Hollands than his cups and that is why I think he should be barred from the HHOF. His second half exposed what an incompetent GM he was and is only effective if he is handed a HHOF team.

 

[sepster]

I went with "Other" which was to keep Babcock around and allow him to destroy the Wings' internal culture and the organization as a destination team for other players.

 

[ManwithNoIdentity]

Not taking another job in the organization and letting Stevie take over sooner

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Other, Not letting Yzerman take the helm, Detroit would now be cup contenders instead of Tampa. Had Holland stepped down and let Yzerman take the helm instead.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Not letting Yzerman take the helm, Detroit would now be cup contenders instead of Tampa..

No way. We'd likely be further along in the process, maybe even a playoff team. Contender? Absolutely, 100% not.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

No way. We'd likely be further along in the process, maybe even a playoff team. Contender? Absolutely, 100% not.

Yzerman was in Tampa for 9 years, And now Detroit for 3 years. If Yzerman couldn't make this team a cup contender in 12 years. Then there's no hope of this team ever competing for the cup ever again.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Yzerman was in Tampa for 9 years, And now Detroit for 3 years. If Yzerman couldn't make this team a cup contender in 12 years. Then there's no hope of this team ever competing for the cup ever again.

Not equal starts. Having 20 year old Hedman and Stamkos is a different 9 year timeline than having 31 year old Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Not equal starts. Having 20 year old Hedman and Stamkos is a different 9 year timeline than having 31 year old Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

So at least we'd be a competitive team right now, Maybe not cup worthy but pretty darn close. Still much further along then we're now if Yzerman were at the helm compared to Holland.

 

[Pavels Dog]

So at least we'd be a competitive team right now, Maybe not cup worthy but pretty darn close. Still much further along then we're now if Yzerman were at the helm compared to Holland.

I actually think the biggest benefit would have been likely a better push at an actual cup run with the old core. Maybe even getting Datsyuk to stick around for longer. Timeline probably would have accelerated somewhat (better free agent signings = better assets to sell, better team performance = higher value assets in trades), but not drastically.
You still can't magically get a 28 year old Victor Hedman appear on this roster unless you draft him in 2010 or 2011 or something, which Yzerman couldn't have done no matter how hard he tried.

 

[Retire91]

I love reading that Holland's biggest blunder was,,,, staying GM. If that isn't the biggest possible indictment for incompetence I don't know what is. I am not sure what was worse enduring 8 years of sustained declining mediocrity and WTF offseasons or listening to all the Holland apologists through it.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I think we need to retire the term apologists.

Not wanting to trash our couple decades long GM and executive team for simply making a series of progressively worse moves at the first sign of distress is not apologizing for their mistakes

even in the above list… there are only really a couple moves which were “how in your lizard brain could you imagine that would work?”

And heck, we even started back on the rebuild way by his actions. Taken far too late, of course, but to act like Holland was always big dumb dumb… I don’t like it.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I actually think the biggest benefit would have been likely a better push at an actual cup run with the old core. Maybe even getting Datsyuk to stick around for longer. Timeline probably would have accelerated somewhat (better free agent signings = better assets to sell, better team performance = higher value assets in trades), but not drastically.
You still can't magically get a 28 year old Victor Hedman appear on this roster unless you draft him in 2010 or 2011 or something, which Yzerman couldn't have done no matter how hard he tried.

I don’t think as much changes as you might think. It probably amounts to us keeping around a Mursak over signing Cleary. I can foresee one big change though… Yzerman would not have re-signed Helm in 2016. I could see him buying into Abby, actually. But Helm wasn’t even a center anymore by the time 2016 came along.

The gap between how Yzerman thinks and how Holland thinks is far smaller than everyone thinks it is.

 

[Retire91]

IDK there was a real die-hard contingent defense following each moves as 'not that bad' and 'at least he is trying to win' steadfastly refusing to see the bigger picture and where this was going to end up. I don't think even the most pessimistic of us called becoming one of the worst rosters "in NHL history" but I personally wasn't surprised when it happened. I would say the biggest tool of the defender camp was to look at each move individually and be like oh it didn't do that much damage, or hey he got a few wins when he started rebuilding (like 7 years too late). The big picture was clear, and early on, but there was host of defenders and I enjoy the irony when those in that camp complain about how bad the team is currently still refusing to fully acknowledge the depths that this team sank to under Holland. Even if it was Illich giving ultimatums it's still Holland's legacy and we will never know for certain that is truly what happened because that is inner circle stuff. When Holland gets in the HOF the HOF will include a GM who built one of the worst rosters in NHL history.

I really don't get all these Yzerman is as conservative as Holland arguments. Yzerman would have been night and day just like he actually is now. I do wonder though if he would have stayed in the position if there truly was the ultimatum to prolong the streak. I don't think his continual improvement building style would have meshed with 'get in and anything can happen'. At any rate I doubt he resigns Helm or signs Neilsen, Cleary would have been off the roster and early, he probably signs Abby but for like 4 years, our drafting would have been better, promoted Nyquivst earlier, got better linemates for Datsyuk, did better than Colaiacovo/Quincey/Green, doesn't move Daytsuk's contract and we just eat it, probably executed half a dozen smaller moves upgrading players with younger and better versions, moves up in the draft instead of down.

I know there is a lot of agreeing to disagree and bygones be bygones over all of this but I still have some strong memories from those days.