News Article: Holland on this season

[Reddwit]

Quote from General Manager Ken Holland, We're going to be very aggressive on the trade front at the draft. Literal translation. We will kick some tires at the draft and do absolutely nothing and then he will tell ownership he tried but couldn't get a deal done.

I keep flipping on what I think he'll do but I keep going back to thinking he'll step up in the trade department.

- He moved a homegrown product in Kindl. And he used some retention to do it. That's as crazy as he's been. He's popped his trade cherry for homegrown products.

- He promoted both Mantha and Athanasiou despite neither of them setting the AHL world on fire (at least not initially in AAs case). And he benched some healthy guys to do that. I always thought this was to see if these guys could "replace" other established forwards like Nike and Tatar if Holland moved them. A showcase is possible also. Either way, they were pretty uncharacteristic promotions.

- He's got to deal with the Pavel situation. That's going to force him to get down to brass tacks with other GMs.

- The pressure of a new arena.

 

[Ezekial]

^^
He also didn't make a move at the deadline despite our questionable playoff status. So you can't say he just made a move to continue the streak.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

^^
He also didn't make a move at the deadline despite our questionable playoff status. So you can't say he just made a move to continue the streak.

He didn't make a move because of the LTIR screw up which ate up all of Detroit's cap space.

 

[HockeyinHD]

that is most likely not enough.

Not enough for what, exactly? Not enough to be a dominant NHL dynasty? Well... yeah. Not enough to be a better than average NHL team that goes one or two rounds deep every year? Of course it's good enough for that.

That's really all those teams I'm referencing did with all that alleged amazing talent you don't think Detroit can match. It's not like those clubs are reliably getting into the 3rd round. There are a lot of 1st and 2nd round outs there.

Which is what Detroit's doing now.

teams don't win cups without elite talent.

The problems with that truism are:

A) how easily we define the player as elite after they won a Cup.
B) teams that have elite talent don't win Cups, too.
C) Winning Cups obviously isn't the point.

just adding a very good forward and solid defenseman doesn't bridge the gap between us and other top teams, without mentioning that they should be getting ahead.

1) Is the 2017 Cup more important, less important or equally important to the 2022 Cup?

2) What exactly gives you the impression winning a Cup is the goal right now?

 

[HockeyinHD]

He didn't make a move because of the LTIR screw up which ate up all of Detroit's cap space.

Why couldn't he have made a move to package a pick with an outgoing contract to create cap space either within a multi-player trade or in a sequence of roster moves?

Obviously, he could have. Cap space is, of course, a limiting factor. It's not an eliminating factor.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Not enough for what, exactly? Not enough to be a dominant NHL dynasty? Well... yeah. Not enough to be a better than average NHL team that goes one or two rounds deep every year? Of course it's good enough for that.

That's really all those teams I'm referencing did with all that alleged amazing talent you don't think Detroit can match. It's not like those clubs are reliably getting into the 3rd round. There are a lot of 1st and 2nd round outs there.

Which is what Detroit's doing now.

they are still better than detroit. outside of boston who either gave away their top guys or they've gotten too old outside of bergeron, rask and krejci. ducks also need lead guy on their D. lindholm could be that but is not there yet.

only guys who have shown that they can be elite compared to their peers/based on what they've shown so far are larkin and mrazek. maybe mantha. on defense there is nothing. one of the worst situations in the league of players under about 25.

The problems with that truism are:

A) how easily we define the player as elite after they won a Cup.
B) teams that have elite talent don't win Cups, too.
C) Winning Cups obviously isn't the point.

boston, kings, ducks and hawks had core players who were elite when they won the cup or at latest broke out earlier that season. chara was already norris winner and bergeron one of the best two way forwards in the game. ducks had two top 5Ds in pronger and nieds who had been that for the past 5 seasons. toews and kane were very good from day 1 and keith broke out offensively that year and was a stud for team canada at olympics. doughty was dominant there too and got norris consideration two years prior kings winning the cup and kopitar was one of the best two way forwards in the game couple of years earlier.

B can be true but teams without elite talent don't win cups either. teams with elite talent usually come heck of a lot closer than teams that don't have it.

1) Is the 2017 Cup more important, less important or equally important to the 2022 Cup?

2) What exactly gives you the impression winning a Cup is the goal right now?

if/as they are building for a cup winner in the future, they shouldn't be trying to focus on adding guys like that as the primary goal. instead add guys/draft picks who can help the most 2022.

i don't think winning the cup is a goal right now. wings are so far away from that.

 

[Bench]

i don't think winning the cup is a goal right now. wings are so far away from that.

I'd love to hear what Holland's real view is. Like if you pressed him in private, what's his timeline for victory? Does he really think they are in striking distance? Does he see it as a 5-year-plan? The "rebuild on the fly" has been happening for awhile and the team is slowly sinking, not rising.

I think all fans want to see is commitment to a firm direction. So far Holland has kind of gone half and half on keeping the ship floating with patchwork repairs. Fans want to see him barrel into the ocean or take it to a drydock. Right now it's more akin to spinning circles in the harbor bailing water.

 

[Claypool]

I'd love to hear what Holland's real view is. Like if you pressed him in private, what's his timeline for victory? Does he really think they are in striking distance? Does he see it as a 5-year-plan? The "rebuild on the fly" has been happening for awhile and the team is slowly sinking, not rising.

He'll say the team is closer than the fans believe (which he actually said if you watched his conference). I mean, Los Angeles, Anaheim, and Chicago all got eliminated in the first round. There's no guarantee anymore. Everyone thought the Sharks were dead in the water after missing the playoffs last season, and look, they might win the whole thing. The two pieces this team needs to be a real threat, a #1 Center and a #1 defenseman, are very hard to get unless you draft them.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

He'll say the team is closer than the fans believe (which he actually said if you watched his conference). I mean, Los Angeles, Anaheim, and Chicago all got eliminated in the first round. There's no guarantee anymore. Everyone thought the Sharks were dead in the water after missing the playoffs last season, and look, they might win the whole thing. The two pieces this team needs to be a real threat, a #1 Center and a #1 defenseman, are very hard to get unless you draft them.

What does Chicago and LA losing in the first round do for the Wings? Both of those teams have much better rosters than Detroit. It only reinforces the fact that Detroit is irrelevant without elite talent.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

What does Chicago and LA losing in the first round do for the Wings? Both of those teams have much better rosters than Detroit. It only reinforces the fact that Detroit is irrelevant without elite talent.

They also have played more hockey than anyone the last like 4 years and lost to damn good teams.

 

[Claypool]

They also have played more hockey than anyone the last like 4 years and lost to damn good teams.

Good teams, but not elite teams. No one saw Nashville, San Jose, or St. Louis has threats to come out of the West.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Good teams, but not elite teams. No one saw Nashville, San Jose, or St. Louis has threats to come out of the West.

I had San Jose and St. Louis both winning the first round.

People rested on the laurels of past success from LA and Chicago and past failure from St. Louis and San Jose too much I think.

 

[Reddwit]

they are still better than detroit. outside of boston who either gave away their top guys or they've gotten too old outside of bergeron, rask and krejci. ducks also need lead guy on their D. lindholm could be that but is not there yet.

only guys who have shown that they can be elite compared to their peers/based on what they've shown so far are larkin and mrazek. maybe mantha. on defense there is nothing. one of the worst situations in the league of players under about 25.




boston, kings, ducks and hawks had core players who were elite when they won the cup or at latest broke out earlier that season. chara was already norris winner and bergeron one of the best two way forwards in the game. ducks had two top 5Ds in pronger and nieds who had been that for the past 5 seasons. toews and kane were very good from day 1 and keith broke out offensively that year and was a stud for team canada at olympics. doughty was dominant there too and got norris consideration two years prior kings winning the cup and kopitar was one of the best two way forwards in the game couple of years earlier.

B can be true but teams without elite talent don't win cups either. teams with elite talent usually come heck of a lot closer than teams that don't have it.



if/as they are building for a cup winner in the future, they shouldn't be trying to focus on adding guys like that as the primary goal. instead add guys/draft picks who can help the most 2022.

i don't think winning the cup is a goal right now. wings are so far away from that.

I don't think winning the cup is the goal either but I still think they're trying to luck into being a contender again. Basically stay afloat until they're struck by luck once again. Getting to sign a guy like Stamkos would be just that kind of luck. Not a complete fix but an overnight brand change. Maybe that's even what the "we aren't rebuilding" stance is aimed at.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I don't think winning the cup is the goal either but I still think they're trying to luck into being a contender again. Basically stay afloat until they're struck by luck once again. Getting to sign a guy like Stamkos would be just that kind of luck. Not a complete fix but an overnight brand change. Maybe that's even what the "we aren't rebuilding" stance is aimed at.

i actually agree with that approach for now.. well the idea, not with how they are executing all the moves.

core is too old/bad to go all in. doesn't make sense to trade futures anymore.

they've also way too many bad contracts to blow it up right now. wouldn't make much sense imo when in 4-5 years abby, ericsson and zetterberg contracts are still on the books. and 3 for kronwall.

or maybe they luck out on their young players/picks and don't even need to tear it apart.

 

[Bench]

He'll say the team is closer than the fans believe (which he actually said if you watched his conference). I mean, Los Angeles, Anaheim, and Chicago all got eliminated in the first round. There's no guarantee anymore. Everyone thought the Sharks were dead in the water after missing the playoffs last season, and look, they might win the whole thing. The two pieces this team needs to be a real threat, a #1 Center and a #1 defenseman, are very hard to get unless you draft them.

Right right, just like when Detroit used to get beat in the 1st round when they had Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, etc. Except back then you could believe they'd bounce back and have a run the next season.

If he really believes this team is "closer than the fans believe" then he's out to lunch. Because as you explained, the two pieces this team needs are "very hard to get".

 

[PuckDynasty]

Right right, just like when Detroit used to get beat in the 1st round when they had Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, etc. Except back then you could believe they'd bounce back and have a run the next season.

If he really believes this team is "closer than the fans believe" then he's out to lunch. Because as you explained, the two pieces this team needs are "very hard to get".

No, actually you couldn't. There were more than a few who thought that the Wings may have missed their chance in 95 and 96. There was a belief that the Wings weren't tough enough. That there were too many "soft" Europeans. That their goaltending wasn't good enough. It's easy to look back NOW and say oh, there was so much hope and optimism because we had so much talent. That wasn't necessarily the thinking back then.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

No, actually you couldn't. There were more than a few who thought that the Wings may have missed their chance in 95 and 96. There was a belief that the Wings weren't tough enough. That there were too many "soft" Europeans. That their goaltending wasn't good enough. It's easy to look back NOW and say oh, there was so much hope and optimism because we had so much talent. That wasn't necessarily the thinking back then.

I think that mindset is far more understandable when the fan base hadn't seen the Wings win a cup in over 40 years.

Those early 90's Wings teams "failed" in the playoffs, but looked good during the regular season. Yzerman was still in his mid 20's along with the rest of the Wings core.

Wings the past four years? A whole lot of loser points bolstering their point totals and then proceed to get waxed in the first round.

 

[Claypool]

Right right, just like when Detroit used to get beat in the 1st round when they had Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, etc. Except back then you could believe they'd bounce back and have a run the next season.

Because you knew Detroit would sign any number of the best free agents available that offseason. It's a bit different nowadays.

 

[PuckDynasty]

I think that mindset is far more understandable when the fan base hadn't seen the Wings win a cup in over 40 years.

Those early 90's Wings teams "failed" in the playoffs, but looked good during the regular season. Yzerman was still in his mid 20's along with the rest of the Wings core.

Wings the past four years? A whole lot of loser points bolstering their point totals and then proceed to get waxed in the first round.

You're speaking like someone who wasn't there. Yzerman was 31 in 96. Going into the 97 playoffs,they had an aging Fetisov, Bob Rouse, Igor Larionov, Larry Murphy, Tomas Sandstrom, all in their mid 30's. Joey Kocur was signed from a beer league team. It wasn't like the fans were like golly gee, well we lost AGAIN, but there's always next year! We have hope!

Not to mention, there were calls to rebuild and blow up the team starting in 1999 and from 2003-2007. Obviously the Wings are in a different position now, but it isn't like fans were thrilled losing in the first round then either. Just like fans in LA and Chicago aren't thrilled about it now.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

You're speaking like someone who wasn't there. Yzerman was 31 in 96. Going into the 97 playoffs,they had an aging Fetisov, Bob Rouse, Igor Larionov, Larry Murphy, Tomas Sandstrom, all in their mid 30's. Joey Kocur was signed from a beer league team. It wasn't like the fans were like golly gee, well we lost AGAIN, but there's always next year! We have hope!

Not to mention, there were calls to rebuild and blow up the team starting in 1999 and from 2003-2007. Obviously the Wings are in a different position now, but it isn't like fans were thrilled losing in the first round then either. Just like fans in LA and Chicago aren't thrilled about it now.

31 year old Yzerman was still a first line player, and Fedorov was an elite, all world talent. Plus we had a top 3 winger in the game in Shanahan and two number 1 defensemen. Not hard to figure out why things worked out.

 

[PuckDynasty]

31 year old Yzerman was still a first line player, and Fedorov was an elite, all world talent. Plus we had a top 3 winger in the game in Shanahan and two number 1 defensemen. Not hard to figure out why things worked out.

We had all those, except for Shanahan in 95 and 96 and it didn't work out. Before 97, Fedorov was considered a playoff failure. The selective memories or the assumed memories from people that didn't experience it are entertaining to read, though.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

We had all those, except for Shanahan in 95 and 96 and it didn't work out. Before 97, Fedorov was considered a playoff failure. The selective memories or the assumed memories from people that didn't experience it are entertaining to read, though.

Okay, who is this team's Fedorov? Yzerman? Etc?

You cannot compare this Red Wings core with the ones of the early 90s. At all.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

We had all those, except for Shanahan in 95 and 96 and it didn't work out. Before 97, Fedorov was considered a playoff failure. The selective memories or the assumed memories from people that didn't experience it are entertaining to read, though.

I misunderstood your point. I thought you were talking about going into the 1997 season, as opposed to the years beforehand. Regardless, the core was young and talented enough, obviously as reflected in the results of the 1997 and 1998 playoffs. And frankly, making the finals and then conference finals in 1995 and 1996 respectively is obviously very good, as well, especially after the shocking upset of 1994.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

No, actually you couldn't. There were more than a few who thought that the Wings may have missed their chance in 95 and 96. There was a belief that the Wings weren't tough enough. That there were too many "soft" Europeans. That their goaltending wasn't good enough. It's easy to look back NOW and say oh, there was so much hope and optimism because we had so much talent. That wasn't necessarily the thinking back then.

And 98...and 99...and 2000....and 2001....and 2003.....and 2006....and 2007...and 2009...and 2010...and on and on.

Every single year we haven't won the cup there have been anguished howls of how we aren't good enough, never will be again, everyone needs to be fired, and the team needs to be blown up etc etc. I wasn't on hockey forums on 2001, but I can't begin to imagine how our online fanbase would have reacted to the Kings upset loss.

I've been a Wings fan since '92. People when I talked to them would actually still call them the Dead Wings. "whaddya wanna go and watch that bunch of losers for?" Yzerman wasn't The Captain then, he was a soft loser who didn't know how to win in the playoffs - right up until '97, funnily enough.

 

[Bench]

Cherry picking negative fan reactions to loss isn't much of an argument against how different those losing Wings teams were versus this one. Unless you think Larkin is as good as one of those old core guys and another is on the way. And a defender.

Fans will always dog their team. Always. But objectively, this team doesn't have those pieces it always did that gave many of us hope.