Holland Needs To Go

[Brick Top]

Stan Bowman definitely. The speed and agility with which he retooled after 2010 was astounding. Everyone, myself included, predicted the end after 2010. So many cap problems, how are they going to deal with it. But he did and how.

I bet in a few years, Nill and Yzerman.

Yzerman made some big moves last year during the season and during this last off season. Traded away Conacher, got himself a real goalie, Filppula, bought out Lecavlier, fired his coach and brought in Tampa's AHL coach (Who the Griffins and Blashill beat in the finals). They're doing way better than us that's for sure.

Just looking over Holland's record over the past 5 years is sad. Other than the gimmes, he's made *very* few good moves. Any GM can extend Datsyuk. Any GM can sign Hossa. Any GM can sign the homegrown defenseman who loved the Wings his whole life and has ties to the organization.

And while some of the moves are only bad in hindsight, sooner or later you have to ask: Why does most of his moves turn out badly? Even if we can't fault him for a single decision alone, cumulatively, his decisions are a net negative for the team.

Chiarelli in Boston has done a great job over the last handful of seasons. Nice FA signings, drafted pretty well, swung some major trades- dude's got some stones.

Sure, he's struck out on a few moves but he's won way more than he's lost. Not being afraid to make a major move seems to be key.

 

[aLus]

So your plan is to bring in rookies when our two elite star players are no longer elite enough to cover for their mistakes?

That is a terrible idea. You integrate rookies while your team is strong so you can keep a strong team with your kids learning on the fly. Your method absolutely cripples the team. A bunch of green kids and a couple of oldies who can't keep up anymore. That's a recipe for disaster.

I didn't say the roster should be 50% oldies and 50% rookies. I mean like Z, D and a few rookies, and the rest of the team in their prime.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Chiarelli in Boston has done a great job over the last handful of seasons. Nice FA signings, drafted pretty well, swung some major trades- dude's got some stones.

Sure, he's struck out on a few moves but he's won way more than he's lost. Not being afraid to make a major move seems to be key.

that's been one of the worst areas for them.

but yeah, chia is one of the best.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

What GM's hasn't he kept up with? (Not trying to sound smart or start a fight, I really do want to know)

ok well lets look at just moves made in just the last five seasons 2008/2009 thru to today looking at exclusively draft picks, signings, trades, waiver additions and offer sheets(otherwise known as the tools of a GM) who are making meaningful contributions in the NHL today

this will exclude all players drafted more then five years ago and/or resigning of players drafted more then five years ago(as thats not a new move)

and lets take bryan murray

-karlsson
-methot
-ryan
-turris
-lehner
-anderson
-zibanjad
-michalek(right now he is playing poorly)
-macarthur

now lets take holland
-dekeyser
-alffie

then what?

 

[probertrules24]

ok well lets look at just moves made in just the last five seasons 2008/2009 thru to today looking at exclusively draft picks, signings, trades, waiver additions and offer sheets(otherwise known as the tools of a GM) who are making meaningful contributions in the NHL today

this will exclude all players drafted more then five years ago and/or resigning of players drafted more then five years ago(as thats not a new move)

and lets take bryan murray

-karlsson
-methot
-ryan
-turris
-lehner
-anderson
-zibanjad
-michalek(right now he is playing poorly)
-macarthur

now lets take holland
-dekeyser
-alffie

then what?

Wasn't Karlsson drafted 6 drafts ago? Plus he was a top 15 pick.
They have also drafted in the top 20 5 out of the last 6 drafts.

They are currently sitting 11th and many fans are calling for a rebuild. They have also missed the playoffs twice in the last 6 years and were beat in the first round three out of the six.

Not the best franchise to model ourselves against.

 

[Detroit Sports*]

ok well lets look at just moves made in just the last five seasons 2008/2009 thru to today looking at exclusively draft picks, signings, trades, waiver additions and offer sheets(otherwise known as the tools of a GM) who are making meaningful contributions in the NHL today

this will exclude all players drafted more then five years ago and/or resigning of players drafted more then five years ago(as thats not a new move)

and lets take bryan murray

-karlsson
-methot
-ryan
-turris
-lehner
-anderson
-zibanjad
-michalek(right now he is playing poorly)
-macarthur

now lets take holland
-dekeyser
-alffie

then what?

How many cups does Ottawa have?

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Wasn't Karlsson drafted 6 drafts ago? Plus he was a top 15 pick.
They have also drafted in the top 20 5 out of the last 6 drafts.

They are currently sitting 11th and many fans are calling for a rebuild. They have also missed the playoffs twice in the last 6 years and were beat in the first round three out of the six.

Not the best franchise to model ourselves against.

1. yes he was sorry, 2008, and i did say 08-09 season to today and the 2008 draft should be considered 2007-2008 season

2. i excluded cowen(8th overall) for that very reason

3. only reason detroit has not missed the playoff are two(3) guys named datsyuk, zetterberg and lidstrom. ottawa dose not have such players and again our success in the last five eyars is exclusively due to players brought in decades ago

again it was a five year window specifically being looked at and yet decisions made before then are being brought up

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

How many cups does Ottawa have?

is it seven?

detroit only wins cups, again only, because of decisions made last in the 1990s and 1980's(yzerman, lidstrom, federov, shanahan, datsyuk and zetterberg)

 

[Detroit Sports*]

detroit only wins cups, again only, because of decisions made last in the 1990s and 1980's(yzerman, lidstrom, federov, shanahan, datsyuk and zetterberg)

So zero for Ottawa?

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

So zero for Ottawa?

7.....

 

[SoupNazi]

7.....

The current Senators, the ones that began play in 1992 and are the ones you are holding up as a standard, have zero.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

The current Senators, the ones that began play in 1992 and are the ones you are holding up as a standard, have zero.

1. i never once held the ottawa senators up as a standard, not once, i was referring ONLY to Bryan Murrays work over the last five years

2. i made the criteria dead simple, players brought in new in the last five years only who are making meaningful impacts today in the NHL, decisions specific to that period of time(drafts, trades, signings, waiver additions and offer sheets). No players drafted before that and resigned count and unfortunately cups from before the very specfic period are brought up contrary to what i had said

how many cups detroit has won prior to the 08-9 season in this discussion matter equally as much as how mamy the montreal canadians have won in their history

 

[SoupNazi]

1. i never once held the ottawa senators up as a standard, not once, i was referring ONLY to Bryan Murrays work over the last five years

2. i made the criteria dead simple, players brought in new in the last five years only who are making meaningful impacts today in the NHL, decisions specific to that period of time(drafts, trades, signings, waiver additions and offer sheets). No players drafted before that and resigned count and unfortunately cups from before the very specfic period are brought up contrary to what i had said

how many cups detroit has won prior to the 08-9 season in this discussion matter equally as much as how mamy the montreal canadians have won in their history

You made the claim that the Sense have own seven Stanley Cups in their history. That is false. This incarnation of the Senators has won exactly none. That is what I took issue with. The original Sens, the ones that began play in 1883 and folded in 1934, won eleven.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

You made the claim that the Sense have own seven Stanley Cups in their history. That is false. This incarnation of the Senators has won exactly none. That is what I took issue with. The original Sens, the ones that began play in 1883 and folded in 1934, won eleven.

sorry i must have mistook this
"The current Senators, the ones that began play in 1992 and are the ones you are holding up as a standard, have zero"

as suggessting i was holding the ottawa senators up as a standard

 

[Cbdudek]

Ah, the old "well he's done so well in the past" ********.

You bring up some very valid points, but lets clear something up. The old "well, he's done so well in the past" bull is as bad as the "well, he's done so poorly in the last 2-3 years" bull. A GMs tenure can be measured by what moves and things he has done and how the team has done over the course of a career.

His teams haven't missed the playoffs in his tenure.
He has 3 Stanley cups to his credit + 1 as assistant GM.

So while I do agree that he has struck out on some signings, he has hit home runs with others. You are eager to point out all his failings, but the hits he has made are "just falling in his lap". If thats the reasoning you want to use, then I really can't debate it. That means that every home run signing has been a "falling in his lap" signing.

I know this sounds like I am his biggest fan, but the truth of the matter is far from that statement. I am frustrated about the Dan Cleary signing for starters. I am not as frustrated about letting the youth of the team play in the AHL. I watch the Griffins a lot and Tatar was needed for that cup run last year and for his further maturation when he entered the NHL this season.

Do I think its time for Holland to go? Show me a better GM on the market today that we can get and I am all for ditching him.

 

[DetroitRed]

I agree that Holland should go. Especially if Nyquist is lost ultimately as a result of the Dan Cleary resigning disaster.

I'll even go one further and say Ilitch should sell the team. He was a great owner in his day, but he seems like his ability to make good decisions is suffering in his older age. I mean, you know he's behind a lot of Holland's decisions, and the times when he's not, he still has the final say. The way they have to prop Mike up like the corpse from "Weekend At Bernie's" at every team ceremony nowadays says it's time for a change.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I agree that Holland should go. Especially if Nyquist is lost ultimately as a result of the Dan Cleary resigning disaster.

I'll even go one further and say Ilitch should sell the team. He was a great owner in his day, but he seems like his ability to make good decisions is suffering in his older age. I mean, you know he's behind a lot of Holland's decisions, and the times when he's not, he still has the final say. The way they have to prop Mike up like the corpse from "Weekend At Bernie's" at every team ceremony nowadays says it's time for a change.

Chris Ilitch runs the team these days, both teams.

 

[SimplySolace]

You bring up some very valid points, but lets clear something up. The old "well, he's done so well in the past" bull is as bad as the "well, he's done so poorly in the last 2-3 years" bull. A GMs tenure can be measured by what moves and things he has done and how the team has done over the course of a career.

His teams haven't missed the playoffs in his tenure.
He has 3 Stanley cups to his credit + 1 as assistant GM.

So while I do agree that he has struck out on some signings, he has hit home runs with others. You are eager to point out all his failings, but the hits he has made are "just falling in his lap". If thats the reasoning you want to use, then I really can't debate it. That means that every home run signing has been a "falling in his lap" signing.

I know this sounds like I am his biggest fan, but the truth of the matter is far from that statement. I am frustrated about the Dan Cleary signing for starters. I am not as frustrated about letting the youth of the team play in the AHL. I watch the Griffins a lot and Tatar was needed for that cup run last year and for his further maturation when he entered the NHL this season.

Do I think its time for Holland to go? Show me a better GM on the market today that we can get and I am all for ditching him.

Bolded part: wrong. Same argument as Babcock, have they had great careers? Definitely. Their recent performances are what show that this teams needs a little bit of a shake up. ****, it's almost the same logic as with Cleary. Great career with us, but he's stale and ineffective.

The signings I pointed out that fell in his lap were really the only notable signings he's made and they weren't just from him. He's failed to sign any others in free agency with any sort of impact, and recently, failed enough to either warm the bench or get bought out. List who he has signed other than Brunner/DDK who has a positive impact on this team (aside from Alfie/Weiss who are too new to really compare and aren't relevant since I'm more concerned with 2008-2012)

Is there anyone currently to replace him? Not really. That's our fault for letting Nill walk. I don't want the same to happen with Blashill.

 

[Cbdudek]

Bolded part: wrong. Same argument as Babcock, have they had great careers? Definitely. Their recent performances are what show that this teams needs a little bit of a shake up. ****, it's almost the same logic as with Cleary. Great career with us, but he's stale and ineffective.

The signings I pointed out that fell in his lap were really the only notable signings he's made and they weren't just from him. He's failed to sign any others in free agency with any sort of impact, and recently, failed enough to either warm the bench or get bought out. List who he has signed other than Brunner/DDK who has a positive impact on this team (aside from Alfie/Weiss who are too new to really compare and aren't relevant since I'm more concerned with 2008-2012)

Is there anyone currently to replace him? Not really. That's our fault for letting Nill walk. I don't want the same to happen with Blashill.

So once again we circle back around to the "what have you done for me lately" mentality that some people on this forum seem to have. I believe we are in mutual agreement that Cleary should not have been signed. At the same time though, this team has made the playoffs every season for the last 20+ years.

Since you are only going to pigeonhole Holland into the last 4 years of signings, here we go, and these are just a taste....

Brad Stuart resigned in 2008
Marian Hossa signed in 2008
Flip resigned in 2008

Miller, Eaves, and Bert signed in 2009

Modano and Salei in 2010

Brunner and Ian White in 2011

People want to anoint Stan Bowman as the best GM ever, but look at the amount of signings and trades he has been involved in through the last 4 years. I wouldn't say he hit home runs with every signing he has made. Look at bringing back Khabibulin this year, or signing Kopecky back in 2009.

I believe we both agree on two things though (besides Cleary never being signed), and that is there is no one out there that is better on the market right now. I mean, who are we going to replace Holland with that is available? I believe in making a move if there is a benefit to the team, and I don't see anyone out there that is better. I wonder if this forum would explode if we fired Holland and signed Darcy Regier who used to work in Buffalo.

 

[Brick Top]

People want to anoint Stan Bowman as the best GM ever, but look at the amount of signings and trades he has been involved in through the last 4 years. I wouldn't say he hit home runs with every signing he has made. Look at bringing back Khabibulin this year, or signing Kopecky back in 2009.

No GM hits a home run with every signing or trade. But 2 Cups in the previous 4 seasons, along with a Cup favorite team again this year, means Bowman has a pretty strong slugging % as a GM

 

[Cbdudek]

No GM hits a home run with every signing or trade. But 2 Cups in the previous 4 seasons, along with a Cup favorite team again this year, means Bowman has a pretty strong slugging % as a GM

Yup, I agree. They only had to have teams that languished dead last in the league while we were winning Cups and having success. By the time Bowman took the helm as GM, he inherited a great team. Look at Holland back in 1997 when he inherited the Wings and they won the Cup again in 1998.

 

[JackieTreehorn]

So once again we circle back around to the "what have you done for me lately" mentality that some people on this forum seem to have. I believe we are in mutual agreement that Cleary should not have been signed. At the same time though, this team has made the playoffs every season for the last 20+ years.

Since you are only going to pigeonhole Holland into the last 4 years of signings, here we go, and these are just a taste....

Brad Stuart resigned in 2008
Marian Hossa signed in 2008
Flip resigned in 2008

Miller, Eaves, and Bert signed in 2009

Modano and Salei in 2010

Brunner and Ian White in 2011

People want to anoint Stan Bowman as the best GM ever, but look at the amount of signings and trades he has been involved in through the last 4 years. I wouldn't say he hit home runs with every signing he has made. Look at bringing back Khabibulin this year, or signing Kopecky back in 2009.

I believe we both agree on two things though (besides Cleary never being signed), and that is there is no one out there that is better on the market right now. I mean, who are we going to replace Holland with that is available? I believe in making a move if there is a benefit to the team, and I don't see anyone out there that is better. I wonder if this forum would explode if we fired Holland and signed Darcy Regier who used to work in Buffalo.

the only 3 signings worth anything you listed occurred in 08. almost 6 years ago. I cant believe w are arguing that KH hasn't been one of the worst GMs I the NHL recently. Th rest ofthose signings came from the dumpster behind the dollar store.

I kinda agree no one better out there. However KH as pretty selfish we had 2 guys in house who I think a majority of Wings fans would have been comfortable with. He kne w they couldn't be in there current positions forever so he just waited it out for job security and drove the org. into the ditch in the meantime.

I don't (MOD:care) about about PO appearances. If KH was retooling on the fly, you know breaking Gus and Tatar and others in while making the playoffs, good job. That PO streak is almost solely due to the backs of about 5 players. KH is a year or 2 even behind the curve that should not be celebrated in my humblest of opinion.

 

[Henkka]

No GM hits a home run with every signing or trade. But 2 Cups in the previous 4 seasons, along with a Cup favorite team again this year, means Bowman has a pretty strong slugging % as a GM

Chicago is basicly in a situation where Red Wings were at 1998 summer. Four years of continuous success.

Our "dynasty" era was those four seasons at 94-95, -95-96, 96-97 and 97-98. Two President's Trophies, two Cups, three times in SC finals.

Chicago has been pretty much the same from 2009-10 to 2012-13.

Let's see where they are at 2028. If Stan Bowman is the GM for that time period, then you can compare him to Holland of Ken Holland's duties for the Red Wings.

That gives some perspective for you all.

 

[Brick Top]

Chicago is basicly in a situation where Red Wings were at 1998 summer. Four years of continuous success.

Our "dynasty" era was those four seasons at 94-95, -95-96, 96-97 and 97-98. Two President's Trophies, two Cups, three times in SC finals.

Chicago has been pretty much the same from 2009-10 to 2012-13.

Let's see where they are at 2028. If Stan Bowman is the GM for that time period, then you can compare him to Holland of Ken Holland's duties for the Red Wings.

That gives some perspective for you all.

Well, all I can say to that is... thank God you are here to provide some perspective to all of us lost souls who are crazy enough to give credit to other teams/coaches/GM's

Not every compliment to another team or exec has to be a backhanded insult to the Wings and Kenny/Babs... just an FYI. That little nugget might make your posting experience here less stressful

It's fine with me if you don't want to admit that Kenny has been behind the curve compared to some other GM's in adapting to the salary cap and new CBA eras (full disclosure: that was me taking a semi-shot at Kenny).

You can wait until 2028 to pass some sort of judgment on the track record of Bowman as a GM. I'll say right now that since the Wings' last Cup, he's been better than Holland at making the big decisions and moves to keep his team as a solid Cup favorite.

I give you full permission to start a thread in 2028 with the sole purpose of mocking the hell out of me if the Hawks don't make the playoffs for 20 straight years. Gives me something to look forward to

 

[Cbdudek]

You can wait until 2028 to pass some sort of judgment on the track record of Bowman as a GM. I'll say right now that since the Wings' last Cup, he's been better than Holland at making the big decisions and moves to keep his team as a solid Cup favorite.

Actually, it was Dave Tallon that stocked the cupboard for Bowman before he got the job. Its much easier to make big moves for an organization, when the cupboard is full. The Wings spent years trading away 1st round picks that just in the last couple years, some of their first round picks are just now making it into the NHL. Not making excuses, but this is the new NHL now.

The way that Holland is doing things is really out of where the NHL is going. The new NHL wants you to build through the draft, have success, then lose some of your key players, rebuild, and then repeat the process.

One thing is certain though, if I had a choice between Holland and Stan Bowman, I would take Bowman. Just like I would love to see Yzerman as GM for the Wings. I could probably name a couple more GMs I would like to see rather than Holland, but it speaks pretty clear that I can count Holland in on my top 5 as a GM.