HOH Top 60 Wingers Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread

[ted2019]

A couple thoughts:

1. Gaborik isn't good enough. Among Slovaks, I'd have Demitra and Bondra over him and those guys are not locks for my list. Palffy will be on my list.

2) Patrick Kane on the other hand? I see the case for voters who highly value peak. Even his 7 year VsX is on the cusp of being relevant. Seems weird to include him and not Toews, but it has been another year. I'm not sure what I'll do with Kane.

3) I will have Makarov over Kharlamov and not necessarily by a small margin. But then I think Makarov was vastly underrated by the top 70 and 100 lists on this board.

4) I will also have Ovechkin on over Kharlamov. But then I think Ovechkin has a legit shot at top 10

As of now I don't have Kane on My list. Gaborik isn't on and still not sure about Bondra.

 

[BM67]

Early All-Star teams for the WCHL and PCHA guys

Unfortunately, the NHA and early NHL didn't do All-Star teams, so what we have is of limited use, considering most of the best wings were in the NHA/NHL at the time. But here they are for the HHOFers listed earlier:

Jack Walker
PCHA 1st Team Forward (1921, 1924)
PCHA 1st Team Sub (1922)
PCHA 2nd Team Forward (1917, 1919)
PCHA 2nd Team Rover (1920)

Honestly not overly impressive. If he gets added to our list at all, it's going to be largely based on his defensive play in the playoffs. (Walker supposedly taught Frank Nighbor the hook check). To compare him to other PCHA players, I have trouble seeing him stack up with Frank Foyston, who just missed the cut for our Top 60 Centers project.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=46025771&postcount=210

Walker played in the NHA until 1914-15, leading the league in assists in 1913-14. We are missing most of the forwards for the 1915-16 all-star squad, but he did play for the PCHA all-star squad in exhibition games that year. Walker only played 1 game in 1917-18 due to WWI, so we can forgive him for that season.

Walker being primarily an assist man is going to be underrated in a points race in that era, but since he was on the same team as Foyston for most of his career let's compare them.

16 seasons together from 1912-13 to 1927-28. Walker played more games in only 5 of them, 3 of them 1-2 games. Walker scored more goals 5 times, twice while playing fewer games. Walker had more assists 9 times, with 1 tie. 4 times Walker beat Foyston in both goals and assists, only once did Foyston play more than one less games.

Using the Idealized Points adjusted point system from The Hockey Compendium we get these results for the 1912-1928 period:

Frank Foyston GP 1168 G 457 A 438 Pts 895
Jack Walker GP 1120 G 262 A 510 Pts 772

Foyston probably does have a a slightly better playoff scoring record vs Walker than the regular season comparison shows, but again it isn't a huge margin except in the goals line.

 

[Hardyvan123]

DEFINATELY agree on Gaborik. The big knock on his is staying healthy, but over the span of his career (2000-present) he is only 9th in GPG among guys who played more than 200 games. Would be 11th if included Bure (189 GP) and Lemieux (170 GP).

Gaborik, Heatley, Nash I did not give too much consideration to.

Kane is a hard one. Based on peak could be. But to make up for lack of longevity his peak would have to be almost Ovechkin good, which it hasn't been. Hasn't finished higher than 5th in points or goals. Outside looking in probably.

Kane probably won't make my list either but I haven't done the research yet, his playoffs is what could bring him into my top 80.

i'm going to see mainly how each modern guy stacks up against all other Canadians as well as the "normal top 5,10,20 list and come out with some "blended look" and take into consideration the amount of variance a 30 team league might play as well.

that's the hardest part of this project, giving weight to a guy in Kane's situation say compared to a guy in the PCHA or WCHL with 4 teams and much less players per team.

 

[ted2019]

Is Hossa's defensive resume actually better than Alfredsson's career wise at this point?

I'd have to look real hard at who I prefer overall. But I don't see Hossa having a defensive edge. He was a responsible player for most of his career (nothing special) before becoming a possession whiz and most recently, a well above average defensive player.

Marian Hossa finished 5th in the Selke voting this year and was 10th last season. Alfredsson has a top 4 vote early in His career.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Marian Hossa finished 5th in the Selke voting this year and was 10th last season. Alfredsson has a top 4 vote early in His career.

Hossa Selke finishes:

01 - 14th
03 - 20th
06 - 14th
07 - 25th
08 - 35th
09 - 12th
10 - 20th
12 - 16th
13 - 10th
14 - 5th

Alfredsson Selke finishes:

03 - 20th
06 - 4th
07 - 11th
08 - 10th
09 - 38th
10 - 15th
12 - 35th

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Surprised to hear you say that about Hay. He seems to be a bargain basement 2nd line ATD winger; are we underrating him?

.

Just look at George Hay's accolades.

WCHL 1st Team AS LW (1922, 1924, 1925, 1926)
WCHL 1st Team AS Sub (1923)
NHL All-Star LW - unofficial GM-voted teams (1927, 1928)

He was also the first winger of his generation to be enshrined in the HHOF.

Now I realize that Hay's stats aren't overly impressive outside of 1928 and that we don't know that many details about his work away from the puck. I also realize that the WCHL was a very weak league in 1922 and 1923 and somewhat weak in 1924 before absorbing the PCHA for 1925 and 1926.

But I think what we have is enough to make him a "maybe."

 

[Killion]

Now I realize that Hay's stats aren't overly impressive outside of 1928 and that we don't know that many details about his work away from the puck.

Jack Adams said he was right up there with Joliat, Jack Walker, Bun Cook, Harvey Jackson. "One of the best I've ever seen". Smaller guy, excellent stickhandler & playmaker, crafty, smart, very cool under pressure.

 

[ted2019]

I thought Marleua wasn't eligible since he was for the centers.

Among guys still playing listed above Iggy is a lock and Elias, Hossa and Alfie along with Kovo are probably in as well.

Not sure what to do about Patrick Kane and even Gaborik though both really added to their resumes this past playoffs but it's hard to gauge guys still playing but really has Patrick Kane not had a better career than guys like Shutt and Barber already (who are probably locks for most lists already?

Looking at those 2 70's guys one can make an argument of Brian Propp, Real Cloutier and Marc Tardif being as good or better as well.

I'm really going to need to research the 70's guys fully on my list.

Almost forgot the eastern block guys need to be slotted with the above 70's guys then onto an all time list after that.

Propp might not be top 60, but He will be in My top 80

 

[ted2019]

I have a few more Names:
Claude Lemieux
Hakan Loob
John Tonelli
Steve Thomas
Dean Prentice
Johnny Gottselig

 

[ted2019]

Does anyone have a copy of those fancy VsX charts by chance?

 

[Captain Bowie]

Does anyone have a copy of those fancy VsX charts by chance?

What is this VsX thing I keep seeing?

 

[seventieslord]

Hossa Selke finishes:


09 - 12th
13 - 10th
14 - 5th

Alfredsson Selke finishes:


06 - 4th
07 - 11th
08 - 10th

fixed for you.

so basically, as far as selke consideration goes, they are even.

 

[seventieslord]

I have a few more Names:
Claude Lemieux
Hakan Loob
John Tonelli
Steve Thomas
Dean Prentice
Johnny Gottselig

no chance for any of them. you'll see. once you put pen to paper and start listing names you'll get to 80 so fast, these names won't have even crossed your mind.

Especially Loob and Thomas.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

no chance for any of them. you'll see. once you put pen to paper and start listing names you'll get to 80 so fast, these names won't have even crossed your mind.

Especially Loob and Thomas.

I think Gottselig has a chance at top 80...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

What is this VsX thing I keep seeing?

It's a metric that compares the regular season point total of a player to the 2nd best scorer in the NHL (Vs2), unless there is reason to believe the 2nd best scorer is an outlier, in which case a slightly different standard is used (VsX).
This explains it: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1361409, and the updated 7 year table for all players is in post 156

I'll post the full 7 year scores for wingers a bit later unless someone else does. In the process of manually doing Sturminator's war year fudges for those players. Edit: So if you don't feel like trudging through that thread, you can wait a few days for a condensed version to be posted in this thread.

 

[seventieslord]

I think Gottselig has a chance at top 80...

True...

 

[Captain Bowie]

It's a metric that compares the regular season point total of a player to the 2nd best scorer in the NHL (Vs2), unless there is reason to believe the 2nd best scorer is an outlier, in which case a slightly different standard is used (VsX).
This explains it: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1361409, and the updated 7 year table for all players is in post 156

I'll post the full 7 year scores for wingers a bit later unless someone else does. In the process of manually doing Sturminator's war year fudges for those players. Edit: So if you don't feel like trudging through that thread, you can wait a few days for a condensed version to be posted in this thread.

That was... confusing. I think I understood it. lol

 

[Hardyvan123]

no chance for any of them. you'll see. once you put pen to paper and start listing names you'll get to 80 so fast, these names won't have even crossed your mind.

Especially Loob and Thomas.

Loob has a much better case than Thomas though, good NHL peak, okay it's really one huge year and some decent ones along with a poor one the year before his big one.

But his time in Sweden is as a star and he does well in the Canada cup, Olympics and WC too.

Probably not a top 80 guy but quite a bit ahead of Thomas one would think.

Speaking of Canada cups Tonelli's resume is boosted by his 85 performance and has a solid resume in scoring and bring a lot more to the table than just his scoring.

Not sure if he is in my top 80 but he will be higher than Gainey and Clark gillies.

 

[kmad]

no chance for any of them. you'll see. once you put pen to paper and start listing names you'll get to 80 so fast, these names won't have even crossed your mind.

Especially Loob and Thomas.

Claude Lemieux almost made my top 80. But I put a high value on MVP trophies.

 

[MXD]

Expect minimal participation from me.

 

[Captain Bowie]

For the early guys, having a hard time finding AS selections and scoring finishes for Tommy Phillips and Jack Harragh. TDMM, any sources for these guys? I can find their stats per season, but not all-star selections or league leaders.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Tommy Phillips

For the early guys, having a hard time finding AS selections and scoring finishes for Tommy Phillips and Jack Harragh. TDMM, any sources for these guys? I can find their stats per season, but not all-star selections or league leaders.

Here are some profiles on Tommy Phillips:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=31105485&postcount=72
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=19268805&postcount=329

The first one- the one I did in 2011 - is an accumulation of a lot of research by several posters on this site. The second one was done by seventieslord in 2009 and contains some season-by-season breakdowns that I didn't include in mine.

The real cliff notes version:
1) Phillips is considered the best pre-NHL LW by every all-time All-Star team that is out there (and there isn't consensus about every position).
2) There was a lot of contemporary opinion that he was the best player in the world for a period of time before World War 1 (at various times in that decade, people would say the same about Russell Bowie, Frank McGee, or Hod Stuart).
3) Phillips played most of his career in Western Ontario, considered hockey's "The West" at the time. When he came east to challenge Ottawa for the Cup, there were allegations that they salted the ice because they couldn't handle his speed.
4) His stats, while good, don't actually don't stand out like a Russell Bowie, but he was perhaps the original "two-way star forward."
5) As late as the 1920s, he was still considered the "perfect" player by "western" media.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Do any of you guys have Harry Oliver as a lock? Excellent WCHL career and a so-so NHL career with the Bruins.

 

[bigbuffalo313]

Seems like Phillips was pretty highly regarded. Seems like he should be around the top 20 somewhere

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Seems like Phillips was pretty highly regarded. Seems like he should be around the top 20 somewhere

It's really tough to say exactly where he should fit in. His closest comparable from other lists would be Russell Bowie and Hod Stuart. I mean, he's DEFINITELY the top pre-WW1 winger available, but it's hard to say how that compares with later players.