HOH Top 60 Wingers Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread

[seventieslord]

1. Eligibility and Ranking Criteria
   • Any person who spent the majority of his career playing as a winger or who has the majority of his accomplishments as a winger is eligible
   • It is highly recommended that you use these guidelines to determine whether a player qualifies as a "winger" for the purposes of this project (link)
   • A player who qualifies as a winger should be ranked based on his overall accomplishments as a forward or hockey player.
   • Players should be judged only on their accomplishments as hockey players
   • Players currently active are eligible, but should be ranked based only on what they have already done
2. Preliminary Discussion Thread
   • Anyone may participate in this thread, even if he does not plan on taking part in the voting phase
   • Any winger may be discussed
   • Posters are encouraged to share information about players in this thread and to take information shared into account when constructing their own lists
   • Brief comparisons between players are permitted, but detailed cases and debates should be saved for Round 2 of Voting
   • Please do NOT rank players outright in the preliminary thread
3. Voting
   • Round 1
     • All participants submit a list of 80 wingers ranked in order
     • All eras MUST be considered, and consideration should be given to both NHL and non-NHL players
     • To make it easier to aggregate the submitted lists, please list players using their most commonly used name; e.g. Dickie Moore, not Richard Moore; Gordie Howe, not Gordon Howe
     • Lists may be submitted via email to [email protected] or via PM to seventieslord. Excel format is preferred, but a top to bottom list of 80 is fine too
     • We will be accepting lists until August 8 Please PM seventieslord if you can't make this timeframe and would like to participate
     • Players will be assigned a point value on the list based on ranking
     • Players will be awarded 80 points for a 1st place vote down to 1 point for a 80th place vote
     • An aggregate list of the top wingers will be compiled ranking them in order of the most total points
     • Participants MUST submit a list in Round 1 to be eligible for Round 2
   • Round 2
     • The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
     • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
     • Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
     • Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM
     • For the first 5 rounds, participants will vote for their top 8 players from the available candidates. 1st place votes will be worth 8 points, 2nd place votes worth 7 points, etc. The top 4 vote getters will be added to the final list.
     • For rounds 6-13, participants will vote for their top 10 players from the available candidates. 1st place votes will be worth 10 points, 2nd place votes worth 9 points, etc. The top 5 vote getters will be added to the final list
     • If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we will add more or less than the targeted 4 or 5 players in certain rounds
     • The number of players available for discussion at once will increase from 8 as we move down the list, based on natural breaks in the aggregate list put together in Round 1
     • Tiebreak procedure: If two players are tied in voting points after a round, the higher ranking will go to the player who was ahead on a greater number of ballots. If they are still tied, it will remain a tie on the final list.
4. Quality Assurance
   • Lists will be subject to an evaluation process
   • The submitter of a questionable list will be given an opportunity to defend or justify any selection under question or to correct errors and resubmit
   • The complete voting record of every participant will be released at the end of the project
5. Participants Code of Conduct
   • Participants must recognize that this is a collaborative project and that we all share the same goals, no matter how much we disagree on individual ranking
   • Participants should treat each other with respect and must not openly question the motivations of other participants
   • Repeatedly violating these rules may result in ban from this project and possibly similar future projects on the History of Hockey board

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Top 5 and Top 10 NHL point scoring finishes 1926-27 to 2013-14

Why start in 1926-27? It is the first year after the last Western league folded, when the NHL contained all the talent in North America.

Why top ten finishes, rather than top twenty? Two reasons:

1) In a smaller league, I think 11th-20th place finishes start to become less meaningful. In the Original 6 period, teams usually only ran one powerplay unit for the entire powerplay, so there were only 18 forwards getting first unit powerplay time (plus a few extra forwards who would play on the point). So lower top 20 finishes in a smaller league were as much about opportunity as talent.

2) Not a small reason - top ten finishes are much easier to compile using hockey-reference.com.

I am giving players a point for every top 5 finish and a point for every top 10 finish. It's something of a junk stat that is useful for sorting.

PLAYER | TOP 5- | TOP 10 | TOTAL
Gordie Howe | 20 | 21 | 41
Maurice Richard | 9 | 11 | 20
Bobby Hull | 8 | 11 | 19
Jaromir Jagr | 8 | 11 | 19
Andy Bathgate | 9 | 9 | 18
Ted Lindsay | 6 | 8 | 14
Mike Bossy | 6 | 8 | 14
Guy Lafleur | 6 | 6 | 12
Bill Cook** | 5 | 7 | 12
Alex Ovechkin | 5 | 7 | 12
Teemu Selanne | 4 | 7 | 11
Charlie Conacher | 5 | 5 | 10
Doug Bentley | 4 | 6 | 10
Bernie Geoffrion | 3 | 7 | 10
Frank Mahovlich | 3 | 7 | 10
Busher Jackson | 4 | 5 | 9
Martin St. Louis | 4 | 5 | 9
Sweeney Schriner | 3 | 6 | 9
Toe Blake | 3 | 6 | 9
Jari Kurri | 3 | 6 | 9
Gordie Drillon | 3 | 4 | 7
Mark Recchi | 3 | 4 | 7
Pavel Bure | 3 | 4 | 7
Paul Kariya | 3 | 4 | 7
Paul Thompson | 2 | 5 | 7
Bill Mosienko | 2 | 5 | 7
Rod Gilbert | 2 | 5 | 7
Ilya Kovalchuk | 2 | 5 | 7
Roy Conacher | 1 | 6 | 7
John Bucyk | 1 | 6 | 7
Lynn Patrick | 3 | 3 | 6
Ken Hodge | 3 | 3 | 6
Brett Hull | 3 | 3 | 6
Markus Naslund | 3 | 3 | 6
Syd Howe | 2 | 4 | 6
Bryan Hextall, Sr | 2 | 4 | 6
Bert Olmstead | 2 | 4 | 6
Dickie Moore | 2 | 4 | 6
Luc Robitaille | 2 | 4 | 6
John LeClair | 2 | 4 | 6
Jarome Iginla | 2 | 4 | 6
Aurele Joliat* | 1 | 5 | 6
Ace Bailey | 2 | 3 | 5
Lorne Carr | 2 | 3 | 5
Ed Litzenberger | 2 | 3 | 5
Dany Heatley | 2 | 3 | 5
Michel Goulet | 1 | 4 | 5
Ziggy Palffy | 1 | 4 | 5
Carson Cooper | 2 | 2 | 4
Cecil Dillon | 2 | 2 | 4
Larry Aurie | 2 | 2 | 4
Gaye Stewart | 2 | 2 | 4
Todd Bertuzzi | 2 | 2 | 4
Corey Perry | 2 | 2 | 4
Bobby Bauer | 1 | 3 | 4
Sid Smith | 1 | 3 | 4
Kenny Wharram | 1 | 3 | 4
Dave Taylor | 1 | 3 | 4
Patrik Elias | 1 | 3 | 4
Daniel Alfredsson | 1 | 3 | 4
George Hay** | 1 | 2 | 3
Baldy Northcott | 1 | 2 | 3
Woody Dumart | 1 | 2 | 3
Ab DeMarco | 1 | 2 | 3
Bobby Rousseau | 1 | 2 | 3
Wayne Cashman | 1 | 2 | 3
Marian Hossa | 1 | 2 | 3
Patrick Kane | 1 | 2 | 3
Bun Cook | 0 | 3 | 3
Johnny Pearson | 0 | 3 | 3
Theoren Fleury | 0 | 3 | 3
Pavol Demitra | 0 | 3 | 3
Phil Kessel | 0 | 3 | 3
Babe Dye* | 1 | 1 | 2
Andy Blair | 1 | 1 | 2
Hec Kilrea | 1 | 1 | 2
Georges Mantha | 1 | 1 | 2
Don Grosso | 1 | 1 | 2
Herb Cain | 1 | 1 | 2
Carl Liscombe | 1 | 1 | 2
Joe Carveth | 1 | 1 | 2
Bud Poile | 1 | 1 | 2
Wally Hergesheimer | 1 | 1 | 2
Vic Hadfield | 1 | 1 | 2
Bill Barber | 1 | 1 | 2
Steve Shutt | 1 | 1 | 2
Bob MacMillan | 1 | 1 | 2
Rob Brown | 1 | 1 | 2
Kevin Stevens | 1 | 1 | 2
Alex Kovalev | 1 | 1 | 2
Milan Hejduk | 1 | 1 | 2
Zach Parise | 1 | 1 | 2
Daniel Sedin | 1 | 1 | 2
Harry Oliver** | 0 | 2 | 2
Bill Carson | 0 | 2 | 2
Frank Finnigan | 0 | 2 | 2
Dutch Gainor | 0 | 2 | 2
Johnny Gagnon | 0 | 2 | 2
Herbie Lewis | 0 | 2 | 2
Tom Anderson | 0 | 2 | 2
Claude Provost | 0 | 2 | 2
Yvan Cournoyer | 0 | 2 | 2
John McKenzie | 0 | 2 | 2
Rick Martin | 0 | 2 | 2
Lanny McDonald | 0 | 2 | 2
Charlie Simmer | 0 | 2 | 2
Rick Middleton | 0 | 2 | 2
Dino Ciccarelli | 0 | 2 | 2
Alexander Mogilny | 0 | 2 | 2
Brendan Shanahan | 0 | 2 | 2
Taylor Hall | 0 | 2 | 2

Notes:

• The ratio of goals to assists has remained fairly constant since World War 2. Prior to World War 2, the numbers varied, but there were fewer assists given out per goal than today. So looking at points will probably underrate the offensive contributions of pre-WW2 playmakers and overrate the offensive contributions of pre-WW2 goalscorers.
• *Aurele Joliat and Babe Dye had Top 10 seasons in the NHL before 1926-27.
• **Bill Cook, Harry Oliver, and George Hay all had significant seasons in the western leagues before they folded.
• Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull had a few Top 10 seasons in the WHA as older players.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Top 20 NHL scoring finishes 1966-67 to 2013-14

Once again, remember that competition matters. In years of greater competition, a 20th place finish may actually be closer to 1st or 2nd place than a 10th place finish in years of weaker competition.

Credit to Hockey Outsider for compiling most of this list.

*Remember that for players like Frank Mahovlich, John Bucyk, Bobby Hull, and Gordie Howe, only post-expansion seasons are counted here.

Like above, we are using something of a junk stat for sorting - adding together the number of top 5, top 10, top 15, and top 20 finishes.

PLAYER | TOP 5- | TOP 10 | TOP 15 | TOP 20 | TOTAL
Jaromir Jagr | 8 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 44
Mike Bossy | 5 | 8 | 9 | 9 | 31
Teemu Selanne | 4 | 7 | 9 | 10 | 30
Alex Ovechkin | 5 | 7 | 8 | 8 | 28
Jari Kurri | 3 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 24
Guy Lafleur | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 24
Martin St. Louis | 4 | 5 | 6 | 9 | 24
Luc Robitaille | 2 | 4 | 7 | 10 | 23
Mark Recchi | 3 | 4 | 7 | 8 | 22
Brett Hull | 3 | 3 | 5 | 8 | 19
Ilya Kovalchuk | 2 | 5 | 6 | 6 | 19
John Bucyk* | 1 | 4 | 5 | 8 | 18
Paul Kariya | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 18
Rod Gilbert | 2 | 3 | 5 | 7 | 17
John LeClair | 2 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 17
Pavel Bure | 3 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 17
Jarome Iginla | 2 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 17
Frank Mahovlich* | 0 | 4 | 6 | 6 | 16
Michel Goulet | 1 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 16
Bobby Hull* | 2 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 16
Dany Heatley | 2 | 3 | 5 | 5 | 15
Daniel Alfredsson | 1 | 3 | 4 | 6 | 14
Rick Middleton | 0 | 2 | 5 | 6 | 13
Theoren Fleury | 0 | 3 | 4 | 6 | 13
Ken Hodge | 3 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 13
Ziggy Palffy | 1 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 13
Marian Hossa | 1 | 2 | 5 | 5 | 13
Lanny McDonald | 0 | 2 | 5 | 5 | 12
Markus Naslund | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 12
Dave Taylor | 1 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 11
Pavol Demitra | 0 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 11
Patrik Elias | 1 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 11
Gordie Howe* | 2 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 11
Yvan Cournoyer | 0 | 2 | 3 | 5 | 10
Alexander Mogilny | 0 | 2 | 4 | 4 | 10
Brendan Shanahan | 0 | 2 | 4 | 4 | 10
Patrick Kane | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 10
Keith Tkachuk | 0 | 0 | 4 | 5 | 9
Alex Kovalev | 1 | 1 | 3 | 4 | 9
Glenn Anderson | 0 | 1 | 4 | 4 | 9
Rick Martin | 0 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 9
Daniel Sedin | 1 | 1 | 3 | 4 | 9
Corey Perry | 2 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 9
Phil Kessel | 0 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 9
John McKenzie | 0 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 8
Todd Bertuzzi | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 8
Joe Mullen | 0 | 1 | 2 | 4 | 7
Charlie Simmer | 0 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 7
Steve Shutt | 1 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 7
Wilf Paiement | 0 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 7
Wayne Cashman | 1 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 7
Marian Gaborik | 0 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 7
Tim Kerr | 0 | 1 | 1 | 4 | 6
Mickey Redmond | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 6
Tony Amonte | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 6
Dino Ciccarelli | 0 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 6
Kevin Stevens | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 6
Milan Hejduk | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 6
Zach Parise | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 6
Taylor Hall | 0 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 6
Rene Robert | 0 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 5
Steve Larmer | 0 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 5
Bill Barber | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 5
Clark Gillies | 0 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 5
Jim Pappin | 0 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 5
Vic Hadfield | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 5
Vincent Damphousse | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 4
Bobby Rousseau | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 4
Dave Andreychuk | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Dennis Hextall | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Glen Murray | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Kenny Wharram | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Mike Gartner | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Owen Nolan | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Rick Tocchet | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 4
Bob MacMillan | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 4
Rob Brown | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 4
Brian Propp | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3
Cam Neely | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
Danny Grant | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
Dennis Hull | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
John Tonelli | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
Peter Bondra | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
Real Cloutier | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
Alex Tanguay | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Blaine Stoughton | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Blair MacDonald | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Cory Stillman | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Dave Balon | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Hakan Loob | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
J.P. Parise | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Jean Pronovost | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
John Ogrodnick | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Jonathan Cheechoo | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Alexander Semin | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
Thomas Vanek | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
Loui Eriksson | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
James Neil | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Chris Kunitz | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Joe Pavelski | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Jamie Benn | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

NHL Top 5/10 GOAL scoring finishes 1926-27 to 2013-14

Since in modern times, the primary job of a winger is often to score goals, and because goals have been statistically more valuable than assists since the 1940s, I thought it might be useful to make a table only focusing on goal scoring.

PLAYER | TOP 5- | TOP 10 | TOTAL
Gordie Howe | 14 | 19 | 33
Maurice Richard | 12 | 13 | 25
Bobby Hull# | 12 | 13 | 25
Mike Bossy | 8 | 9 | 17
Alex Ovechkin | 8 | 8 | 16
Ted Lindsay | 5 | 10 | 15
Roy Conacher | 6 | 8 | 14
Bernie Geoffrion | 6 | 8 | 14
Frank Mahovlich | 6 | 8 | 14
Jaromir Jagr | 6 | 8 | 14
Bill Cook** | 5 | 8 | 13
Brett Hull | 4 | 8 | 12
Ilya Kovalchuk | 4 | 8 | 12
Bryan Hextall, Sr | 5 | 6 | 11
Gordie Drillon | 5 | 6 | 11
Guy Lafleur | 5 | 6 | 11
Teemu Selanne | 5 | 6 | 11
Luc Robitaille | 2 | 9 | 11
Charlie Conacher | 5 | 5 | 10
Pavel Bure | 5 | 5 | 10
Busher Jackson | 4 | 6 | 10
Michel Goulet | 4 | 6 | 10
John LeClair | 4 | 6 | 10
Peter Bondra | 4 | 6 | 10
Andy Bathgate | 3 | 7 | 10
Sweeney Schriner | 4 | 5 | 9
Camille Henry | 3 | 6 | 9
Jari Kurri | 4 | 4 | 8
Jarome Iginla | 4 | 4 | 8
Toe Blake | 3 | 5 | 8
Sid Smith | 3 | 5 | 8
Tim Kerr | 3 | 5 | 8
Cecil Dillon | 2 | 6 | 8
Syd Howe | 2 | 6 | 8
Dany Heatley | 2 | 6 | 8
Herb Cain | 3 | 4 | 7
Ed Litzenberger | 3 | 4 | 7
Dickie Moore | 3 | 4 | 7
Lanny McDonald | 3 | 4 | 7
Marian Hossa | 3 | 4 | 7
Bill Mosienko | 2 | 5 | 7
Rick Martin | 2 | 5 | 7
Yvan Cournoyer | 1 | 6 | 7
Aurel Joliat* | 2 | 4 | 6
Lorne Carr | 2 | 4 | 6
Gaye Stewart | 2 | 4 | 6
Steve Shutt | 2 | 4 | 6
Cam Neely | 2 | 4 | 6
Markus Naslund | 2 | 4 | 6
Rod Gilbert | 1 | 5 | 6
John Bucyk | 1 | 5 | 6
Mike Gartner | 1 | 5 | 6
Brendan Shanahan | 1 | 5 | 6
Keith Tkachuk | 1 | 5 | 6
Doug Bentley | 2 | 3 | 5
Red Hamill | 2 | 3 | 5
Wally Hergesheimer | 2 | 3 | 5
Mickey Redmond | 2 | 3 | 5
Rick Vaive | 2 | 3 | 5
Glenn Anderson | 2 | 3 | 5
Owen Nolan | 2 | 3 | 5
Alexander Mogilny | 2 | 3 | 5
Ziggy Palffy | 2 | 3 | 5
Rick Nash | 2 | 3 | 5
Marian Gaborik | 2 | 3 | 5
Corey Perry | 2 | 3 | 5
Bun Cook | 1 | 4 | 5
Paul Thompson | 1 | 4 | 5
Jean Pronovost | 1 | 4 | 5
Paul Kariya | 1 | 4 | 5
Milan Hejduk | 1 | 4 | 5
Harry Oliver** | 2 | 2 | 4
Carson Cooper | 2 | 2 | 4
Lynn Patrick | 2 | 2 | 4
Claude Provost | 2 | 2 | 4
Kenny Wharram | 2 | 2 | 4
Charlie Simmer | 2 | 2 | 4
Dino Ciccarelli | 2 | 2 | 4
Tony Amonte | 2 | 2 | 4
Martin St Louis | 2 | 2 | 4
Thomas Vanek | 2 | 2 | 4
Baldy Northcott | 1 | 3 | 4
Alex Shibicky | 1 | 3 | 4
Bobby Bauer | 1 | 3 | 4
Woody Dumart | 1 | 3 | 4
Johnny Peirson | 1 | 3 | 4
Andy Hebenton | 1 | 3 | 4
Reggie Leach | 1 | 3 | 4
Joe Mullen | 1 | 3 | 4
Bill Guerin | 1 | 3 | 4
Hec Kilrea | 1 | 2 | 3
Ace Bailey | 1 | 2 | 3
John Sorrell | 1 | 2 | 3
Larry Aurie | 1 | 2 | 3
Joe Benoit | 1 | 2 | 3
Carl Liscombe | 1 | 2 | 3
Mud Bruneteau | 1 | 2 | 3
Harry Watson | 1 | 2 | 3
Dean Prentice | 1 | 3 | 3
Bobby Rousseau | 1 | 2 | 3
Dennis Hull | 1 | 2 | 3
Danny Grant | 1 | 2 | 3
Bill Goldsworthy | 1 | 2 | 3
Danny Grant | 1 | 2 | 3
Bill Barber | 1 | 2 | 3
Danny Gare | 1 | 2 | 3
Blaine Stoughton | 1 | 2 | 3
Kevin Stevens | 1 | 2 | 3
Dave Andreychuk | 1 | 2 | 3
Ray Sheppard | 1 | 2 | 3
Alexei Kovalev | 1 | 2 | 3
Patrik Elias | 1 | 2 | 3
Glenn Murray | 1 | 2 | 3
Zach Parise | 1 | 2 | 3
James Neil | 1 | 2 | 3
Phil Kessel | 1 | 2 | 3
Vic Stasiuk | 0 | 3 | 3
Dave Balon | 0 | 3 | 3
Rick Middleton | 0 | 3 | 3
Daniel Alfredsson | 0 | 3 | 3

*Aurel Joliat had top 10 seasons in NHL goals before 1926.

**Bill Cook and Harry Oliver had significant seasons in the western competitors to the NHL before consolidation

#Bobby Hull had significant seasons in the WHA after leaving the NHL

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

NHL All-Star LEFT WING (1st, 2nd, and 3rd) 1930-31 to 2013-14

(Credit to Hockey Outsider for compiling these from 1967 to present).

Third Team All Stars are unofficial, but derived from the same voting that gives us the First and Second Team All Stars. I was able to award a 3rd Team All Star in every year but 1941, 1952, 1953, and 1958

I was able to award a 3rd Team All Star in every season but 1952, 1955, and 1959. Two 3rd Team All Stars were awarded in 1932 due to a tie. See notes below for details.

Note that I am NOT including Oveckin's 2nd Team nod in 2012-13. Also note that he has a 1st and 2nd Team selection as a RW.

Player | First | Second | Third | Total
Bobby Hull | 10 | 2 | 1 | 13
Frank Mahovlich | 3 | 6 | 2 | 11
Ted Lindsay | 8 | 1 | 1 | 10
Luc Robitaille | 5 | 3 |0 | 8
Toe Blake | 3 | 2 | 2 | 7
Alexander Ovechkin | 5 | 1 | 0 | 6
Michel Goulet | 3 | 2 | 1 | 6
John LeClair | 2 | 3 | 1 | 6
John Bucyk | 1 | 1 | 4 | 6
Busher Jackson | 4 | 1 | 0 | 5
Paul Kariya | 3 | 2 | 0 | 5
Brendan Shanahan | 2 | 1 | 2 | 5
Aurel Joliat* | 1 | 3 | 1 | 5
Sid Smith | 1 | 2 | 2 | 5
Steve Shutt | 1 | 2 | 2 | 5
Bill Barber | 1 | 2 | 2 | 5
Ilya Kovalchuk | 1 | 1 | 3 | 5
Woody Dumart | 0 | 3 | 2 | 5
Doug Bentley | 3 | 0 | 1 | 4
Markus Naslund | 3 | 0 | 1 | 4
Richard Martin | 2 | 2 |0 | 4
Sweeney Schriner | 2 | 1 | 1 | 4
Dickie Moore | 2 | 1 | 1 | 4
Keith Tkachuk | 0 | 2 | 2 | 4
Mark Messier | 2 | 1 |0 | 3
Kevin Stevens | 1 | 2 |0 | 3
Paul Thompson | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Daniel Sedin | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Bert Olmstead | 0 | 2 | 1 | 3
Henrik Zetterberg | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
Bun Cook* | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
Dean Prentice | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
Mats Naslund | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
Charlie Simmer | 2 |0 |0 | 2
Clark Gillies | 2 | 0 | 0 | 2
Lynn Patrick | 1 | 1 | 0 | 2
Gaye Stewart | 1 | 1 | 0 | 2
Roy Conacher | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2
John Ogrodnick | 1 | 0| 1 | 2
Patrik Elias | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2
John Tonelli | 0 | 2 |0 | 2
Vic Hadfield | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Wayne Cashman | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Johnny Gottselig | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Syd Howe | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Herb Cain | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Camille Henry | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Doug Mohns | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2
Dave Andreychuk | 0 |0 | 2 | 2
Baldy Northcott | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1
Jamie Benn | 1 | 0 | 0| 1
Chris Kunitz | 1 | 0 |0 | 1
Sid Abel | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Tony Leswick | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Ed Sandford | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Danny Lewicki | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Real Chevrefils | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Alex Delvecchio | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Don Marshall | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Dennis Hull | 0 | 1 |0 | 1
Zach Parise | 0 | 1 |0 | 1
Brian Bellows | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Ray Whitney | 0 | 1 |0 | 1
Gerard Gallant | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Dany Heatley | 0 | 1 |0 | 1
Steve Vickers | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Thomas Vanek | 0 | 1 |0 | 1
Taylor Hall | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Joe Pavelski | 0 | 1 |0 | 1
Adam Graves | 0 | 1 |0 | 1
Nels Stewart* | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Hec Kilrea* | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Herbie Lewis | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Georges Mantha | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Carl Liscombe | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Harry Watson | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Jimmy McFadden | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Fleming MacKell | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Esa Tikkanen | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Patrick Marleau | 0| 0 | 1 | 1
Pat Verbeek | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Pavol Demitra |0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Patrick Sharp | 0| 0 | 1 | 1
Vincent Damphousse | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Gilles Tremblay | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Gary Roberts |0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Rod Brind'Amour |0 |0 | 1 | 1
Danny Grant | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Todd Bertuzzi | 0 |0 | 1 | 1
Chuck Lafley | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Scott Hartnell | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Eric Vail |0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Steve Payne | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Al Secord | 0 |0 | 1 | 1
Glenn Anderson |0 |0 | 1 | 1

Notes

• *Aurel Joliat had numerous AS-calibre seasons before 1931. So did Nels Stewart, but most of his were at C. Bun Cook and Hec Kilrea may have also had AS-calibre seasons before 1931.
• I have Hec Kilrea (3 1st; 3 2nd Team votes) and Bun Cook (2 1st, 5 2nd Team votes) as tied for 3rd Team AS in 1932.
• We don't have records for 1952, 1955, and 1959, so I could not award AS teams for those years.
• 1939 was an interesting case. Alex Shibicky (not listed) finished 3rd in AS voting for RW. But he also tied Woody Dumart for 3rd in AS voting by a LW. I gave Shibicky the RW spot, so Dumart gets the LW spot.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

NHL All Star RIGHT WING (1st, 2nd, and 3rd) 1930-31 to 2013-14

I was able to award a 3rd Team All Star in every season but 1951, 1952, 1953, and 1955. 1955 was probably Gordie Howe though (see notes below).

Player | First | Second | Third | Total
Gordie Howe | 12 | 9 | 1 | 22
Maurice Richard | 7 | 7 | 1 | 15
Mike Bossy | 5 | 3 | 1 | 9
Jaromir Jagr | 7 | 1 | 0 | 8
Andy Bathgate | 2 | 2 | 4 | 8
Guy Lafleur | 6 |0 |0 | 6
Charlie Conacher** | 3 | 2 | 1 | 6
Martin St. Louis | 1 | 4 | 1 | 6
Bernie Geoffrion | 1 | 2 | 3 | 6
Bill Cook* | 3 | 1 | 1 | 5
Jarome Iginla | 3 | 1 | 1 | 5
Brett Hull | 3 | 0 | 2 | 5
Jari Kurri | 2 | 3 |0 | 5
Teemu Selanne | 2 | 2 | 1 | 5
Gordie Drillon | 2 | 1 | 2 | 5
Pavel Bure | 1 | 2 | 2 | 5
Bill Monsienko | 0 | 2 | 3 | 5
Marian Hossa |0 | 1 | 4 | 5
Bryan Hextall | 3 | 1 | 0 | 4
Larry Aurie | 1 | 0 | 3 | 4
Bobby Bauer | 0 | 4 | 0 | 4
Cam Neely | 0 | 4 |0 | 4
Yvan Cournoyer | 0 | 4 |0 | 4
Lorne Carr | 2 | 0 | 1 | 3
Ken Hodge | 2 | 0 | 1 | 3
Rod Gilbert | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Mickey Redmond | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Cecil Dillon | 1 | 2 | 0 | 3
Tim Kerr | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
John McKenzie | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
Theo Fleury | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
Rick Middleton | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3
Dit Clapper** | 0 | 2 | 1 | 3
Ken Wharram | 2 | 0 | 0 | 2
Corey Perry | 2 | 0 |0 | 2
Alexander Ovechkin | 1 | 1 | 0 | 2
Claude Provost | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2
Joe Mullen | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2
Patrick Kane | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2
Lanny McDonald | 0 | 2 | 0 | 2
Alexander Mogilny | 0 | 2 |0 | 2
Marian Gaborik | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Alexei Kovalev | 0| 1 | 1 | 2
Daniel Alfredsson |0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Bill Goldsworthy | 0|0 | 2 | 2
Rod Gilbert | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2
Dino Ciccarelli | 0 | 0| 2 | 2
HÃ¥kan Loob | 1 | 0 |0 | 1
Dany Heatley | 1 | 0 |0 | 1
Todd Bertuzzi | 1 | 0|0 | 1
James Neal | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1
Bud Poile | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Bob Rousseau | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Milan Hejduk | 0 | 1 |0 | 1
Danny Gare | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Mark Recchi | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Dave Taylor | 0 | 1 |0 | 1
Bill Guerin | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Reggie Leach |0 | 1 |0 | 1
René Robert | 0| 1 |0 | 1
Jimmy Ward** | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Johnny Gagnon | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Charlie Sands | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Alex Shibicky | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Eddie Wiseman | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Joe Benoit | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Don Gallinger | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Johnny Peirson | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Jerry Toppazzini | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Bob Nevin | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Wilf Paiment | 0 |0 | 1 | 1
Ziggy Palffy | 0| 0 | 1 | 1
Phil Kessel | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Bob MacMillan | 0| 0 | 1 | 1
Rob Brown | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Glenn Murray | 0 |0 | 1 | 1
Terry O'Reilly | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Wayne Babych | 0 |0 | 1 | 1
Craig Simpson | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Stephane Richer | 0 |0 | 1 | 1
Owen Nolan | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Jonathan Cheechoo | 0 |0 | 1 | 1
Jim Pappin | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Jean Pronovost | 0 |0 | 1 | 1

Notes

• *Bill Cook was 34 years old in 1931 and still managed to amass 5 All-Star nods from that age on. Pretty incredible.
• **Dit Clapper likely had an AS-calibre year in 1930. Charlie Conacher and Jimmy Ward played some hockey before 1931 too.
• By my system for figuring out rankings in the 1930s (2 points for a 1st Team; 1 point for a 2nd Team), Hooley Smith would have beaten Dit Clapper out 4 points to 3 for the 3rd Team in 1932. But Smith was an official 2nd Team All Star at Center, so I gave the 3rd Team to Clapper.
• There are discrepancies in the 1935 data, but it appears that Bill Cook and Larry Aurie tied for 3rd Team All Star that season.
• If our data is correct, in 1943, 1st Teamer Lorne Carr had 8 1st place votes and 10 2nd place votes and 2nd Teamer Bryan Hextall had 6 1st place and 7 2nd place votes. Joe Benoit had 9 1st place and 4 2nd place votes. No idea how Bryan Hextall finished ahead of Benoit on the official teams, but I gave Benoit the 3rd Team.
• Gordie Howe was a 1st or 2nd Team AS every season from 1949-1970, except for 1955 when he lost out to Maurice Richard and Bernie Geoffrion! He was also a 3rd Teamer in 1948 and was probably a 3rd Teamer in 1955.
• Maurice Richard was a 1st or 2nd Team AS every season from 1944-1957 and was a 3rd Team All Star in 1958!
• People talk about how impossible it was to win an All-Star nod at center in the time of Gretzky and Lemieux. Howe and Richard literally owned the RW AS spot every year from 1949-1957, except for 1955 when Howe had an "off" year, finishing 5th in points and Geoffrion won the Art Ross.
• Unfortunately, we don't have data for 3rd Team All Stars in 1951, 1952, or 1953, so we don't know who finished behind the Howe/Richard duo those years. In 1951, no other RW finished close to them, so it's impossible to tell who it probably would have been. In 1952, it was almost certainly Bernie Geoffrion (6th in scoring) or Bill Monsienko (7th in scoring). In 1953, it was almost certainly Wally Hergesheimer (4th in scoring in by far the best season of his career).
• We also don't have data for 3rd Team All Star in 1955, but it was almost certainly Howe, who finished 5th in overall league scoring. I did not, however, give Howe the official 3rd Team in the table above.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Top 5 in Hart voting 1923-24 to 2013-14

For a couple of years in 1930s, we only have top 3 or 4, but for the most part, this is complete.

Player|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|Total
Gordie Howe | 6 | 1 | 5 | 2 | 2 | 16
Bobby Hull | 2 | 2 | 4| 0 | 1 | 9
Jaromir Jagr | 1 | 4 | 1 | 1 |0 | 7
Guy Lafleur | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 6
Maurice Richard | 1 | 2 | 3 |0 | 0 | 6
Alexander Ovechkin | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4
Andy Bathgate | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 4
Brett Hull | 1 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 3
Aurele Joliat| 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2| 3
Jarome Iginla | 0 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 3
Doug Bentley | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 3
Markus Naslund | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 3
Syd Howe | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Teemu Selanne | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 3
Martin St. Louis | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2
Bill Cook** | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2
Charlie Conacher | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 2
Mike Bossy | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 2
Ted Lindsay | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Frank Mahovlich | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Toe Blake | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1
Bernie Geoffrion | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1
Corey Perry | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1
Ace Bailey | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1
Paul Thompson | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1
Gaye Stewart | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1
Paul Kariya | 0 | 1 |0 | 0 | 0 | 1
Daniel Sedin | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1
Baldy Northcott | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1
Sweeney Schriner | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1
Johnny Gottselig | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1
Lynn Patrick | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1
Roy Conacher | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1
Pavel Bure | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1
Babe Dye*| 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
George Hay** | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Rick Middleton | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Gordie Drillon | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Bryan Hextall, Sr | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Lorne Carr | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Dickie Moore | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Bert Olmstead | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Vic Hadfield | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Danny Gare | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Steve Larmer | 0 |0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Theoren Fleury | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Owen Nolan | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Todd Bertuzzi | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Daniel Alfredsson| 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
Zach Parise | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

As usual, the toughest part of the list-making process for me is compiling and comparing the pre-NHL and non-NHL European players. It's easy enough to use hockey-reference for lists of NHL award winners, scoring records, etc., but I don't know of an equivalent service for the non-NHLers.

Here are the names I've got on my preliminary list so far...

Pre-NHL
Alf Smith
Tommy Phillips

non-NHL Euro
Alexander Yakushev
Anatoli Firsov
Boris Mikhailov
Helmut Balderis
Valeri Kharlamov
Vladimir Krutov
Vladimir Martinec

Yes, despite posting all those megatables of NHL players, I think talking about the non-NHLers is going to be the most useful and interesting part of this preliminary thread like usual.

At first glance, Didier Pitre sticks out as the big omission on your list. Or were you talking about pre-NHA players (since both Smith and Phillips predated even the NHA)?

Among Europeans, Jiri Holik probably deserves at least a look IMO, and Bobrov depending on what you think of 50s Euros. I'm assuming the only reason you aren't listing Makarov on the technicality that he played in the NHL.

Hope July 24 isn't really the deadline to submit...

 

[Captain Bowie]

Great work TDMM!

And if we put together top 60 wingers NAMES Helmut Balderis would be #1 on my list easy. lol

 

[tarheelhockey]

At first glance, Didier Pitre sticks out as the big omission on your list. Or were you talking about pre-NHA players (since both Smith and Phillips predated even the NHA)?

Among Europeans, Jiri Holik probably deserves at least a look IMO, and Bobrov depending on what you think of 50s Euros. I'm assuming the only reason you aren't listing Makarov on the technicality that he played in the NHL.

Yeah, I had Pitre and Makarov because they show up in a hockey-reference report due to their NHL years. That also helps draw in guys like Harry Hyland, Rusty Crawford who played at least a few NHL games (and are thankfully given a * due to their HOF status so they're easy to pick out from the pile).

Bobrov is a really interesting case... I generally don't give a lot of weight to 50s Euros, but he was such a spectacular athlete that one has to believe he could have succeeded anywhere. It's really hard to imagine where he would have ranked in the spectrum of Canadian talent at the time, but it's also really hard to imagine a Canadian star dominating to any greater degree than Bobrov did. At least not without seeming downright unsportsmanlike about it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yeah, I had Pitre and Makarov because they show up in a hockey-reference report due to their NHL years. That also helps draw in guys like Harry Hyland, Rusty Crawford who played at least a few NHL games (and are thankfully given a * due to their HOF status so they're easy to pick out from the pile).

Bobrov is a really interesting case... I generally don't give a lot of weight to 50s Euros, but he was such a spectacular athlete that one has to believe he could have succeeded anywhere. It's really hard to imagine where he would have ranked in the spectrum of Canadian talent at the time, but it's also really hard to imagine a Canadian star dominating to any greater degree than Bobrov did. At least not without seeming downright unsportsmanlike about it.

Good point on the HHOF.

I'm sure we'll talk about these guys more. But for now, here are pre-consolidation "wingers" who are in the HHOF, listed by year of induction. I'm not including someone like Aurel Joliat, who did the majority of his damage after the 1926 consolidation. Or Bill Cook, who dominated the WCHL but did a lot of damage in the NHL.

1945: Tommy Phillips
1950: Allan (Scotty) Davidson, George Richardson (I believe these guys both died in WW1, right?)
1952: Moose Goheen
1958: George Hay
1959: Cy Denneny
1960: Jack Walker
1961: Bruce Stuart
1962: Punch Broadbent, Rusty Crawford, Jack Darragh, Jimmy Gardner, Billy Gilmour, Shorty Green, Tom Hooper, Harry Hyland, Reg Noble, Didier Pitre, Alf Smith, Barney Stanley, Moose Watson
1965: Art Farrell, Blair Russell, Fred Scanlan
1967: Harry Oliver
1970: Babe Dye
1971: Gordon Roberts

Some of these guys are much better than the others. Out of the guys who didn't play in the NHA, early NHL, PCHA, or WCHL/WHL, I think Tommy Phillips is the only one who is a lock to make our list, though I can see arguments for a few others

Maybe this is more helpful:

pre-WW1
Tommy Phillips, Allan Davidson, George Richardson, Moose Goheen, Bruce Stuart, Jimmy Gardner, Billy Gilmour, Tom Hooper, Moose Watson, Blair Russell, Fred Scanlan

NHA/early NHL
Cy Denneny, Punch Broadbent, Rusty Crawford, Jack Darragh, Shorty Green, Harry Hyland, Reg Noble, Didier Pitre, Babe Dye, Gordon Roberts

PCHA
Jack Walker

WCHL/WHL
George Hay, Harry Oliver, Barney Stanley

Some of these guys played in other leagues, but I think I have them classified under the league they were best known as.

So for anyone who complained that we considered too many PCHA players during the "centers" project, here you go. Only 1 HHOF "wing" primarily known for his work in the PCHA.


_____________________

If you google a player's name, you will usually find his wikipedia profile, his legends of hockey profile, and his Greatest Hockey Legends (Joe Pelletier's site) profile. Sometimes I google his name followed by the word "legends."

 

[tarheelhockey]

So for anyone who complained that we considered too many PCHA players during the "centers" project, here you go. Only 1 HHOF "wing" primarily known for his work in the PCHA.

I found that striking when trying to find a good list of pre-consolidation wingers (thanks for the list above, BTW).

It would seem that very few of that era's cream-of-the-crop players ended up on the wing full time. It's really not even until the late 1920s that you see superstar wingers on any kind of regular basis.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Yes

Good point on the HHOF.

I'm sure we'll talk about these guys more. But for now, here are pre-consolidation "wingers" who are in the HHOF, listed by year of induction. I'm not including someone like Aurel Joliat, who did the majority of his damage after the 1926 consolidation. Or Bill Cook, who dominated the WCHL but did a lot of damage in the NHL.

1945: Tommy Phillips
1950: Allan (Scotty) Davidson, George Richardson (I believe these guys both died in WW1, right?)
1952: Moose Goheen
1958: George Hay
1959: Cy Denneny
1960: Jack Walker
1961: Bruce Stuart
1962: Punch Broadbent, Rusty Crawford, Jack Darragh, Jimmy Gardner, Billy Gilmour, Shorty Green, Tom Hooper, Harry Hyland, Reg Noble, Didier Pitre, Alf Smith, Barney Stanley, Moose Watson
1965: Art Farrell, Blair Russell, Fred Scanlan
1970: Babe Dye
1971: Gordon Roberts

Some of these guys are much better than the others. Out of the guys who didn't play in the NHA, early NHL, PCHA, or WCHL/WHL, I think Tommy Phillips is the only one who is a lock to make our list, though I can see arguments for a few others

Maybe this is more helpful:

pre-WW1
Tommy Phillips, Allan Davidson, George Richardson, Moose Goheen, Bruce Stuart, Jimmy Gardner, Billy Gilmour, Tom Hooper, Moose Watson, Blair Russell, Fred Scanlan

NHA/early NHL
Cy Denneny, Punch Broadbent, Rusty Crawford, Jack Darragh, Shorty Green, Harry Hyland, Reg Noble, Didier Pitre, Babe Dye, Gordon Roberts

PCHA
Jack Walker

WCHL/WHL
George Hay, Barney Stanley

Some of these guys played in other leagues, but I think I have them classified under the league they were best known as.

So for anyone who complained that we considered too many PCHA players during the "centers" project, here you go. Only 1 HHOF "wing" primarily known for his work in the PCHA.


_____________________

If you google a player's name, you will usually find his wikipedia profile, his legends of hockey profile, and his Greatest Hockey Legends (Joe Pelletier's site) profile. Sometimes I google his name followed by the word "legends."

Yes they died in WWI.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I am also someone who is having trouble with pre-NHL era players.

Which leagues carry the most weight, how do you correlate stats/awards, basically how do you compare these players considering there was multiple leagues running at the same time?

 

[ted2019]

We all know that Bob Gainey will be quite nicely placed in the top 60, My question is how about a player like Craig Ramsey who wasn't too bad of an offensive player, but was known more for His checking and His 7 Top 5 Selke nominations? What about a Jere Lehtinen and His 3 Selke Trophies and 3 other top 3 finishes? Will voters look at a players all around game or just stick with the glory numbers?

 

[Captain Bowie]

We all know that Bob Gainey will be quite nicely placed in the top 60, My question is how about a player like Craig Ramsey who wasn't too bad of an offensive player, but was known more for His checking and His 7 Top 5 Selke nominations? What about a Jere Lehtinen and His 3 Selke Trophies and 3 other top 3 finishes? Will voters look at a players all around game or just stick with the glory numbers?

Another question I was gonna ask... lol.

On my original list I pulled the top 100 or so from LW and RW scorers from NHL.com, and then looked through pre-WWII leaders to add those guys. Somewhere along the way I realized I left Gainey off of the original 200 or so... oops!

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think Gainey is far from a lock to make the list

 

[ted2019]

I think Gainey is far from a lock to make the list

I don't. I see Him in the 40-50 range

 

[ResilientBeast]

My top 10 are pretty set, and I'll probably go through another 10-20 before the draft.

 

[seventieslord]

Maybe this is more helpful:

pre-WW1
Tommy Phillips, Allan Davidson, George Richardson, Moose Goheen, Bruce Stuart, Jimmy Gardner, Billy Gilmour, Tom Hooper, Moose Watson, Blair Russell, Fred Scanlan

NHA/early NHL
Cy Denneny, Punch Broadbent, Rusty Crawford, Jack Darragh, Shorty Green, Harry Hyland, Reg Noble, Didier Pitre, Babe Dye, Gordon Roberts

PCHA
Jack Walker

WCHL/WHL
George Hay, Barney Stanley

In for sure: Denneny, Phillips, Dye, Pitre

Maybe: Broadbent, Darragh, Hyland, Noble, Roberts, Walker

Out for sure: Davidson, Richardson, Goheen, Stuart, Gardner, Gilmour, Hooper, Watson, Russell, Scanlan, Crawford, Green, Hay, Stanley

Agree?

BTW: just two wingers ever have more top-5s in Hart voting than Gordie Howe has Hart wins.

I figure Gordie will end up top-5 in this for sure, probably top-3!

 

[seventieslord]

I don't. I see Him in the 40-50 range

Well if you see him at 40-50 and you're higher on him than almost anyone, and this is a top-60, then TDMM is right, he's far from a lock.

 

[ted2019]

Well if you see him at 40-50 and you're higher on him than almost anyone, and this is a top-60, then TDMM is right, he's far from a lock.

Are U going by strictly offensive stats?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Was Gainey's defense good enough to rank over guys like George Armstrong, Bob Pulford, Claude Provost, or Baldy Northcott, all of whom were great defensively and much better offensively? All those guys but Provost are in the HHOF like Gainey

 

[Theokritos]

Early Wingers and their HOF-worthiness according to Iain Fyffe's point allocation system

Likely HOF-worthy:
Tommy Phillips, Didier Pitre, Jack Walker, Jack Darragh, Cy Denneny, Reg Noble, George Hay (all actually in the Hall), Carson Cooper (not in the Hall).

Maybe HOF-worthy:
Blair Russell, Alf Smith, Bruce Stuart, Barney Stanley, Gordon Roberts, Harry Hyland, Babe Dye, Punch Broadbent (all actually in the Hall), Smokey Harris (not in the Hall), Eddie Oatman (not in the Hall).

Likely Not HOF-worthy:
Art Farrell, George Richardson, Tom Hooper, Jimmy Gardner, Fred Scanlan, Billy Gilmour, Rusty Crawford, Scotty Davidson, Moose Watson, Shorty Green, Moose Goheen. (Only players who are actually in the Hall named here.)

Links to Source: 1890s, 1900s, 1910s, 1920s in three parts: Likely, Maybe and Likely Not.

 

[VMBM]

Bobrov is a really interesting case... I generally don't give a lot of weight to 50s Euros, but he was such a spectacular athlete that one has to believe he could have succeeded anywhere. It's really hard to imagine where he would have ranked in the spectrum of Canadian talent at the time, but it's also really hard to imagine a Canadian star dominating to any greater degree than Bobrov did. At least not without seeming downright unsportsmanlike about it.

If only he had been, say, ten years younger... it would be so much easier to make a judgement.

Hopefully there will be some discussion. There are Russian old-timers, who think that he was the greatest Soviet player ever - Fetisov, Makarov and Kharlamov notwithstanding. Nostalgia probably plays a part in that, but still.