HOH Top 60 Wingers Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread

[bigbuffalo313]

Where would some of the more modern guys go? I have Jagr in my top ten and Selanne and Ovechkin are both in my top 20, but some of the other modern guys like St. Louis or Marleau(if he even makes it) I'm not to sure about. I had significantly underrated modern players in the centers project and don't want to do it again

 

[tarheelhockey]

We all know that Bob Gainey will be quite nicely placed in the top 60, My question is how about a player like Craig Ramsey who wasn't too bad of an offensive player, but was known more for His checking and His 7 Top 5 Selke nominations? What about a Jere Lehtinen and His 3 Selke Trophies and 3 other top 3 finishes? Will voters look at a players all around game or just stick with the glory numbers?

I've narrowed my list down to around 120, and already have marked Ramsay and Lehtinen off. It's not that I didn't consider them; but when it's hard to form an argument that they were top-10 wingers at any given time, and they didn't have exceptional longevity or team success, then there's really not a place for them on a top-80 of all time list.

 

[kmad]

I've narrowed my list down to around 120, and already have marked Ramsay and Lehtinen off. It's not that I didn't consider them; but when it's hard to form an argument that they were top-10 wingers at any given time, and they didn't have exceptional longevity or team success, then there's really not a place for them on a top-80 of all time list.

I have Claude Provost in my top 80.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

In for sure: Denneny, Phillips, Dye, Pitre

Maybe: Broadbent, Darragh, Hyland, Noble, Roberts, Walker

Out for sure: Davidson, Richardson, Goheen, Stuart, Gardner, Gilmour, Hooper, Watson, Russell, Scanlan, Crawford, Green, Hay, Stanley

Agree?

Agree with most of these, though I have George Hay firmly in the "maybe" pile. I'm going to go through his resume again, but as of now, he has a better shot of making my list than a couple of your other maybe. Edit: Looked through it, and Hay will definitely be on my list somewhere.

Need to look at Rusty Crawford again to totally dismiss him. Edit: Looked it it. Great defensive player, but his scoring just isn't high enough to make it.

Reg Noble seems like he should probably be in, but not as much of a lock as those other 4.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Stats of a few split league players

Here are profiles of some early players I think should strongly be considered. Not including Cy Denneny or Babe Dye, as they were early NHLers and their hockey reference profiles are easy to access. Likewise, Darragh and Broadbent did most of their damage as NHLers

I'm copying the stats from their ATD profiles so the formatting won't be standardized. Some of these guys played in other leagues too (see their profiles) - I am including their finishes in the best leagues here.

Remember that there is basically no difference between the quality of the NHA and the pre-1926 NHL.

Didier Pitre

NHA
Top-10 Scoring (1st, 1st, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 9th)
Top-10 Goalscoring (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 6th)
Top-10 Assist (1st, 7th, 8th, 10th)

NHL
Top-10 Scoring (5th, 7th, 7th)
Top-10 Goalscoring (5th, 6th, 10th)
Top-10 Assist (3rd, 9th)

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=43652777&postcount=66

Harry Hyland

NHA
Top-10 Scoring (3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th)
Top-10 Goalscoring (3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th)
Top-10 Assist (4th, 9th)

PCHA
Top-10 Scoring (2nd)
Top-10 Goalscoring (2nd)
*Assist were not recorded*

NHL
Top-10 Goalscoring (8th)
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=44813343&postcount=130

Gord Roberts

NHA
Top 10 Scoring (2nd, 2nd, 6th, 10th)
Top-10 Goalscoring (2nd, 2nd, 8th, 9th)
Top-10 in assists (2nd, 4th, 10th)

PCHA
Top-10 in Scoring (2nd, 3rd, 5th)
Top-10 in goals (1st, 2nd, 3rd)

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=80664281&postcount=84

IMO, Pitre is a lock for our list, though it's hard to say exactly how high. Roberts seems to have a better case than Hyland for inclusion, especially considering Roberts seemed to have a decent defensive game, as well.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Year of Induction

Good point on the HHOF.

I'm sure we'll talk about these guys more. But for now, here are pre-consolidation "wingers" who are in the HHOF, listed by year of induction. I'm not including someone like Aurel Joliat, who did the majority of his damage after the 1926 consolidation. Or Bill Cook, who dominated the WCHL but did a lot of damage in the NHL.

1945: Tommy Phillips
1950: Allan (Scotty) Davidson, George Richardson (I believe these guys both died in WW1, right?)
1952: Moose Goheen
1958: George Hay
1959: Cy Denneny
1960: Jack Walker
1961: Bruce Stuart
1962: Punch Broadbent, Rusty Crawford, Jack Darragh, Jimmy Gardner, Billy Gilmour, Shorty Green, Tom Hooper, Harry Hyland, Reg Noble, Didier Pitre, Alf Smith, Barney Stanley, Moose Watson
1965: Art Farrell, Blair Russell, Fred Scanlan
1970: Babe Dye
1971: Gordon Roberts

Some of these guys are much better than the others. Out of the guys who didn't play in the NHA, early NHL, PCHA, or WCHL/WHL, I think Tommy Phillips is the only one who is a lock to make our list, though I can see arguments for a few others

Maybe this is more helpful:

pre-WW1
Tommy Phillips, Allan Davidson, George Richardson, Moose Goheen, Bruce Stuart, Jimmy Gardner, Billy Gilmour, Tom Hooper, Moose Watson, Blair Russell, Fred Scanlan

NHA/early NHL
Cy Denneny, Punch Broadbent, Rusty Crawford, Jack Darragh, Shorty Green, Harry Hyland, Reg Noble, Didier Pitre, Babe Dye, Gordon Roberts

PCHA
Jack Walker

WCHL/WHL
George Hay, Barney Stanley

Some of these guys played in other leagues, but I think I have them classified under the league they were best known as.

So for anyone who complained that we considered too many PCHA players during the "centers" project, here you go. Only 1 HHOF "wing" primarily known for his work in the PCHA.


_____________________

If you google a player's name, you will usually find his wikipedia profile, his legends of hockey profile, and his Greatest Hockey Legends (Joe Pelletier's site) profile. Sometimes I google his name followed by the word "legends."

Recently found column by Baz O'Meara focuses on the induction criteria discussion leading up to the initial 1945 induction.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=85196587&postcount=3

As you may read nothing was set in stone, in fact at one point Howie Morenz was not up for consideration.

So the ordering of the inducted members by year should be viewed in the context of this data.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Early All-Star teams for the WCHL and PCHA guys

Unfortunately, the NHA and early NHL didn't do All-Star teams, so what we have is of limited use, considering most of the best wings were in the NHA/NHL at the time. But here they are for the HHOFers listed earlier:

Jack Walker
PCHA 1st Team Forward (1921, 1924)
PCHA 1st Team Sub (1922)
PCHA 2nd Team Forward (1917, 1919)
PCHA 2nd Team Rover (1920)

Honestly not overly impressive. If he gets added to our list at all, it's going to be largely based on his defensive play in the playoffs. (Walker supposedly taught Frank Nighbor the hook check). To compare him to other PCHA players, I have trouble seeing him stack up with Frank Foyston, who just missed the cut for our Top 60 Centers project.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=46025771&postcount=210

George Hay

WCHL 1st Team AS LW (1922, 1924, 1925, 1926)
WCHL 1st Team AS Sub (1923)
NHL All-Star LW (1927, 1928)

I have no idea what his competition was for All-Star LW was most of those seasons, but that's a pretty gaudy record. Those NHL All-Star Teams are unofficial ones voted on by the GMs (we unfortunately only have incomplete records for them). Aurel Joliat was the 2nd Team AS LW in 1928 behind Hay.

Combined with Hay's really early enshrinement in the HHOF, he seems to have been quite highly regarded by people who saw him play.

Here are his stats, keeping in mind that the WCHL in 1922 and to a lesser extent 1923 was still a very weak league:

WCHL Points – 2nd(1922), 3rd(1923), 3rd(1924), 5th(1926), 9th(1925)
WCHL Goals – 2nd(1923), 3rd(1924), 4th(1922), 5th(1926), 8th(1925)
WCHL Assists – 3rd(1922), 3rd(1926), 4th(1924), 6th(1923), 10th(1925)

NHL Points – 3rd(1928), 10th(1929), 13th(1927), 18th(1930)
NHL Goals – 5th(1928), 17th(1929), 18th(1927)
NHL Assists – 3rd(1928), 8th(1927), 8th(1929)

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=60008211&postcount=86

Barney Stanley

WCHL 1st Team All Star (1922, 1923)
PCHA 2nd Team All Star (1918)

The two weakest years of the WCHL.

He's an interesting player, but I don't see the accolades to make our list.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=61972349&postcount=187

Harry Oliver

WCHL 1st Team All Star spare (1924, 1925)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Where would some of the more modern guys go? I have Jagr in my top ten and Selanne and Ovechkin are both in my top 20, but some of the other modern guys like St. Louis or Marleau(if he even makes it) I'm not to sure about. I had significantly underrated modern players in the centers project and don't want to do it again

Is Marleau even eligible for this list? He was eligible for the centers list.

St Louis needs to be there somewhere.

Iginla, Alfredsson, Hossa, Elias are other active players. Heatley and Sedin maybe too.

Edit: And Kovalchuk

 

[bigbuffalo313]

Is Marleau even eligible for this list? He was eligible for the centers list.

St Louis needs to be there somewhere.

Iginla, Alfredsson, Hossa, Elias are other active players. Heatley and Sedin maybe too.

Edit: And Kovalchuk

I'm pretty sure I remember people talking about him on the wingers list around the time Thornton was up for vote

Of those that you mentioned I think Iggy and Alfredsson are locks and the others are maybes

 

[ted2019]

Is Marleau even eligible for this list? He was eligible for the centers list.

St Louis needs to be there somewhere.

Iginla, Alfredsson, Hossa, Elias are other active players. Heatley and Sedin maybe too.

Edit: And Kovalchuk

Heatley isn't on My list and Elias I'm not too sure about. Sedin actually sort of sneaks up on you

 

[seventieslord]

Are U going by strictly offensive stats?

No, of course not... what TDMM said.

I've narrowed my list down to around 120, and already have marked Ramsay and Lehtinen off. It's not that I didn't consider them; but when it's hard to form an argument that they were top-10 wingers at any given time, and they didn't have exceptional longevity or team success, then there's really not a place for them on a top-80 of all time list.

Ramsay was, if you believe all-star voting, a top-10 winger at one time.

That said, I don't see how I'll possibly find room for him or Lehtinen, before I look further into it.

Agree with most of these, though I have George Hay firmly in the "maybe" pile. I'm going to go through his resume again, but as of now, he has a better shot of making my list than a couple of your other maybe. Edit: Looked through it, and Hay will definitely be on my list somewhere.

Need to look at Rusty Crawford again to totally dismiss him. Edit: Looked it it. Great defensive player, but his scoring just isn't high enough to make it.

Reg Noble seems like he should probably be in, but not as much of a lock as those other 4.

Surprised to hear you say that about Hay. He seems to be a bargain basement 2nd line ATD winger; are we underrating him?

Noble is probably the highest on my maybes.

Is Marleau even eligible for this list? He was eligible for the centers list.

St Louis needs to be there somewhere.

Iginla, Alfredsson, Hossa, Elias are other active players. Heatley and Sedin maybe too.

Edit: And Kovalchuk

Marleau is not eligible, as he was in the center project (eligible, anyway). It doesn't really matter, as I recall naming 80 wingers more deserving with no difficulty.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I'm pretty sure I remember people talking about him on the wingers list around the time Thornton was up for vote

Of those that you mentioned I think Iggy and Alfredsson are locks and the others are maybes

Is Alfredsson really any better than Hossa at this point?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i don't know much about didier pitre, but he did have unprecedented longevity for his time didn't he?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

i don't know much about didier pitre, but he did have unprecedented longevity for his time didn't he?

I don't know about unprecedented, but top 10 finishes in the NHL at ages 34-36 and barely missing it at age 37 was pretty unusual for the era, even with half the talent in other leagues

 

[Killion]

i don't know much about didier pitre, but he did have unprecedented longevity for his time didn't he?

Ya, over a 20yr career actually. 13 of them with the Montreal Canadiens starting in 1909. Big guy for his era tipping the scales at 200lbs, but not what youd classify as "physical" apparently. Nicknamed Cannonball, noted for his tremendous speed skating not only forwards but backwards as well, and apparently quite the hard, heavy & fast wrist shot. Played one season in the PCHA and before joining Montreal (first player they signed upon entry into the NHA) was like the Ultimate Hockey Mercenary like several of his contemporaries (circa 1900-1909), often signing to play in just one game professionally as a Ringer while simultaneously being a regular with another team in another league & so on.

 

[kmad]

Is Alfredsson really any better than Hossa at this point?

IMO Hossa is significantly better due to his playoff resume & defensive play

 

[ted2019]

IMO Hossa is significantly better due to his playoff resume & defensive play

Agreed. Hossa has turned Himself into a nice 2 way player.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Is Marleau even eligible for this list? He was eligible for the centers list.

St Louis needs to be there somewhere.

Iginla, Alfredsson, Hossa, Elias are other active players. Heatley and Sedin maybe too.

Edit: And Kovalchuk

I thought Marleua wasn't eligible since he was for the centers.

Among guys still playing listed above Iggy is a lock and Elias, Hossa and Alfie along with Kovo are probably in as well.

Not sure what to do about Patrick Kane and even Gaborik though both really added to their resumes this past playoffs but it's hard to gauge guys still playing but really has Patrick Kane not had a better career than guys like Shutt and Barber already (who are probably locks for most lists already?

Looking at those 2 70's guys one can make an argument of Brian Propp, Real Cloutier and Marc Tardif being as good or better as well.

I'm really going to need to research the 70's guys fully on my list.

Almost forgot the eastern block guys need to be slotted with the above 70's guys then onto an all time list after that.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

I'm interested to know what you guys think of Makarov vs. Kharlamov. In the Top-70 GOAT list they are almost 40 spots apart, but I don't see what puts Kharlamov over Makarov by such a significant margin.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Where would some of the more modern guys go? I have Jagr in my top ten and Selanne and Ovechkin are both in my top 20, but some of the other modern guys like St. Louis or Marleau(if he even makes it) I'm not to sure about. I had significantly underrated modern players in the centers project and don't want to do it again

I also have Selanne and Ovechkin in the teens. Iginla is the next highest current player on my list, mid/late 20's. I have St. Louis, Kovelchuk and Alfredsson on there somewhere.

Though I think Marleau is considered a center for these projects.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I'm interested to know what you guys think of Makarov vs. Kharlamov. In the Top-70 GOAT list they are almost 40 spots apart, but I don't see what puts Kharlamov over Makarov by such a significant margin.

Best player during USSR's best era?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

A couple thoughts:

1. Gaborik isn't good enough. Among Slovaks, I'd have Demitra and Bondra over him and those guys are not locks for my list. Palffy will be on my list.

2) Patrick Kane on the other hand? I see the case for voters who highly value peak. Even his 7 year VsX is on the cusp of being relevant. Seems weird to include him and not Toews, but it has been another year. I'm not sure what I'll do with Kane.

3) I will have Makarov over Kharlamov and not necessarily by a small margin. But then I think Makarov was vastly underrated by the top 70 and 100 lists on this board.

4) I will also have Ovechkin on over Kharlamov. But then I think Ovechkin has a legit shot at top 10

 

[Captain Bowie]

A couple thoughts:

1. Gaborik isn't good enough. Among Slovak's, I'd have Demitra and Bondra over him and those guys are not locks for my list.

2) Patrick Kane on the other hand? I see the case for voters who highly value peak. Even his 7 year VsX is on the cusp of being relevant. Seems weird to include him and not Toews, but it has been another year. I'm not sure what I'll do with Kane.

3) I will have Makarov over Kharlamov and not necessarily by a small margin. But then I think Makarov was vastly underrated by the top 70 and 100 lists on this board.

I could see Ovechkin cracking the top 10 on many lists, bumping down guys like Cook, Geoffrion, Conacher for some.

4) I will also have Ovechkin on over Kharlamov. But then I think Ovechkin has a legit shot at top 10

DEFINATELY agree on Gaborik. The big knock on his is staying healthy, but over the span of his career (2000-present) he is only 9th in GPG among guys who played more than 200 games. Would be 11th if included Bure (189 GP) and Lemieux (170 GP).

Gaborik, Heatley, Nash I did not give too much consideration to.

Kane is a hard one. Based on peak could be. But to make up for lack of longevity his peak would have to be almost Ovechkin good, which it hasn't been. Hasn't finished higher than 5th in points or goals. Outside looking in probably.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Best player during USSR's best era?

Didn't the USSR's best era come during Makarov's time (1980s)?

A couple thoughts:

1. Gaborik isn't good enough. Among Slovaks, I'd have Demitra and Bondra over him and those guys are not locks for my list. Palffy will be on my list.

2) Patrick Kane on the other hand? I see the case for voters who highly value peak. Even his 7 year VsX is on the cusp of being relevant. Seems weird to include him and not Toews, but it has been another year. I'm not sure what I'll do with Kane.

3) I will have Makarov over Kharlamov and not necessarily by a small margin. But then I think Makarov was vastly underrated by the top 70 and 100 lists on this board.

4) I will also have Ovechkin on over Kharlamov. But then I think Ovechkin has a legit shot at top 10

If I was making a list, that's what I would also do. I've looked at Makarov and Kharlamov accolades and I failed to see what made Kharlamov greater by such a large margin and if he was even greater than Makarov at all. He was only named the best forward once at the WC and if I remember correctly only led the Soviet League in points once or twice.

 

[seventieslord]

IMO Hossa is significantly better due to his playoff resume & defensive play

Is Hossa's defensive resume actually better than Alfredsson's career wise at this point?

I'd have to look real hard at who I prefer overall. But I don't see Hossa having a defensive edge. He was a responsible player for most of his career (nothing special) before becoming a possession whiz and most recently, a well above average defensive player.