Hockey's Future Fall 2004 Org Rankings 1-10

[s7ark]

Way too early for that IMO.

Normally Garfield and I are like oil and water but as an Oiler fan I have to agree. WAY too early to start calling steals in the draft. You can talk about possible steals all you like. But nothing is written in stone yet. We likely won't kow who has the steal of the 2004 draft for 5 years or more... As an example, Iginla would now be considered the steal of his draft since he fell to 11th. How many years ago was he drafted?

 

[Pepper]

Using your view of the Preds, there aren't many teams that couldn't beat them in a head to head matchup. You shrink the prospect cores at the various positions so that it benefits the ducks. Expand the goalie's list a little more because without including Lassila, you are shafting Nashville. Expand the D list more too because you are leaving out Klein, Sulzer, Stehlik, Mukhachev, Niskala, Hutchinson. And do the same with the forwards while you are at it. Add Setzinger, Segal, Soin, Pivko, Shafigulin, Meidl. Do the same with Anaheim and we come out on top.

I admitted that with depth included, Preds have advantage in goal & defense. However they do NOT have better forward prospects, not by a long shot even with depth included.

You are narrowing it down to the point at which Anaheim becomes competitive. If you remove Nashville's depth AND subjectively lean towards Anaheim, then sure Anaheim wins. How about we narrow it down even more than you did. Suter>Getzlaf. Oh, that seals it. Nashville in a landslide.

I'm narrowing it down because it's close to impossible to compare 20-30 prospects head to head, that's why the Org rankings only listed few players from each team. I'm using teams' top prospects, those with the best shot of making it to NHL.

 

[Pepper]

Until you lay proof on the table, he has every right to make assumptions. For someone who has seen these players, you've offered little analysis as to why they won't succeed. This isn't the behavior of a man who has "seen 10x more than any Nashville writer"

Lay it on me, how have you seen these guys so much more than Eriks, NMK, GB, or myself? Do you simultaneously live in Kelowna, Quebec City, Milwaukee, and Moscow? You may have seen equal, though I will assume that you haven't given that I've seen no evidence of any eye witness sitings of these players, but you certainly haven't seen 10x as much.

Sorry, my original post missed couple of (very important) words. I meant three of the prospects I mentioned in my original post and those 3 players I know better than any of the writers you mentioned.

 

[SmokeyClause]

I admitted that with depth included, Preds have advantage in goal & defense. However they do NOT have better forward prospects, not by a long shot even with depth included.

I never said we had better forwards, what I meant by coming out on top was the whole of the prospect group.

I'm narrowing it down because it's close to impossible to compare 20-30 prospects head to head, that's why the Org rankings only listed few players from each team. I'm using teams' top prospects, those with the best shot of making it to NHL.

They only list a few, but they take into account the good majority of the prospects. You still narrowed it down beyond normal comparison. You conveniently left out players like Klein.

 

[ginner classic]

Way too early for that IMO.

I'll give the steal of the draft to LA or St Louis, though like posted it is too early to tell.

I can't believe that Nashvill finished ahead of some other team like LA. Total mystery to me. I like LA's top end much more.

 

[SmokeyClause]

Sorry, my original post missed couple of (very important) words. I meant three of the prospects I mentioned in my original post and those 3 players I know better than any of the writers you mentioned.

Your orignal post (#18) had nothing about individual players in it. In your second post (#32), you mention Lassila, Suter, Weber, Niskala, Setzinger, Radulov, Shishkanov, Upshall. In your third post (#40), you speak of Radulov, Niskala, Weber and Finley again and tell us why you don't much care for Nashville (in an indirect way).

In your fourth post (#92), and this is the one I feel you are referring to, you comment on 4 players (Shishkanov, Radulov, Glazachev and Upshall).

Pick any one of your posts and find me three players you are talking about because in my cursory glance, I can't find a three player post. Just who are these three players?

 

[Pepper]

I never said we had better forwards, what I meant by coming out on top was the whole of the prospect group.

Well I prefer a better top6 over better top20, of the prospects in your Top 11-20 only max 2 will make it to a full time NHL job, chances are that none of them will.

They only list a few, but they take into account the good majority of the prospects. You still narrowed it down beyond normal comparison. You conveniently left out players like Klein.

And like I said it becomes extremely risky ranking prospects beyond the top 10, even assessing top6 is educated guessing at best. Yes, I left out Klein just like I left out players like Kunitz, Malec, Rome and Glencross.

 

[Pepper]

Your orignal post (#18) had nothing about individual players in it. In your second post (#32), you mention Lassila, Suter, Weber, Niskala, Setzinger, Radulov, Shishkanov, Upshall. In your third post (#40), you speak of Radulov, Niskala, Weber and Finley again and tell us why you don't much care for Nashville (in an indirect way).

In your fourth post (#92), and this is the one I feel you are referring to, you comment on 4 players (Shishkanov, Radulov, Glazachev and Upshall).

Pick any one of your posts and find me three players you are talking about because in my cursory glance, I can't find a three player post. Just who are these three players?

I meant the first post where I named your prospects (#32). Of those prospects, I've seen 3 play more than the HF writers you named combined.

The 3 players have something in common, you should figure it out.

 

[SmokeyClause]

And like I said it becomes extremely risky ranking prospects beyond the top 10, even assessing top6 is educated guessing at best. Yes, I left out Klein just like I left out players like Kunitz, Malec, Rome and Glencross.

I want you to include players like Rome and Malec. That was my point.

Klein is a notch above those two in almost all eyes but yours. They are both solid prospects, but Klein wins the comparison. My point was that you stopped when the talent level dropped off for Anaheim. That same talent level continued for several more Nashville prospects, but you stopped because it no longer become beneficial to Anaheim to continue listing more. You can pretend you did it for this or for that, but I know why you did it. If you listed the prospects out, Anaheim would lose.

 

[SmokeyClause]

The 3 players have something in common, you should figure it out.

No, I asked you to mention them. If you can't or don't, that's your problem.

 

[Pepper]

Klein is a notch above those two in almost all eyes but yours.

Did I ever say that Klein is *not* above those two? If I did, where did I do that? Again, don't put words in to my mouth.

They are both solid prospects, but Klein wins the comparison. My point was that you stopped when the talent level dropped off for Anaheim.

No, I took a full 5-man unit simply because every team has one on ice in normal situations. Talent level drops both with Ducks and Preds at that point, Ducks with goal & D and Preds with forwards.

That same talent level continued for several more Nashville prospects, but you stopped because it no longer become beneficial to Anaheim to continue listing more. You can pretend you did it for this or for that, but I know why you did it. If you listed the prospects out, Anaheim would lose.

No, the same talent level did not continue for SEVERAL more NAshville prospects (I'm assuming you're talking about defense here as you mentioned Klein?). It would have been very beneficial for Ducks to continue listing forwards as Ducks have advantage over there.

 

[Pepper]

No, I asked you to mention them. If you can't or don't, that's your problem.

Hint: they play in the same league. Start guessing.

 

[SmokeyClause]

Did I ever say that Klein is *not* above those two? If I did, where did I do that? Again, don't put words in to my mouth.

I'll put words in your mouth whenever I deem necessary as long as it's within board rules. If you don't like it, take it somewhere else. I merely made an assumption based on all the information given to me, that you would rather have the Duck over the Pred. I may have been wrong, though this is only because the difference in talent between Klein and the Duck pair is too much for even you to rationalize. If you want to talk about how much more knowledgeable of Predators prospects you are, don't be suprised to see it thrown back at you in a roundabout way.

No, I took a full 5-man unit simply because every team has one on ice in normal situations. Talent level drops both with Ducks and Preds at that point, Ducks with goal & D and Preds with forwards.

And why would you do this? Is that what makes a prospect core great? These prospects rarely pan out. To limit it to such a figure is foolish. Especially considering that a good bit of NHL players would likely have been ranked outside of that top 5 prospect status at several points in their careers. Glance at this for a second.

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=106557

The top 5 rarely pan out, the only way to get an accurate picture is to include the prospects as a whole.

No, the same talent level did not continue for SEVERAL more NAshville prospects (I'm assuming you're talking about defense here as you mentioned Klein?). It would have been very beneficial for Ducks to continue listing forwards as Ducks have advantage over there.

It doesn't continue for several more players if you are looking it like a plateau. There is dropoff, but there is almost always dropoff from one prospect to the next (or they would all be ranked #1). My point, and I should have worded it better, was that the dropoff the Preds have is not as severe as most teams. Klein, Stehlik, Sulzer, Mukhachev, Hutchinson all have a legit shot at making it, some (Hutchinson, Mukhachev) moreso than others. Now, most won't. But I like their odds of being solid NHLers better than Rome, Foster, Malec and the Ducks group.

The forward example works, though not as well. Players like Radulov and Shiskanov, neither of whom you like, are top tier offensive prospects. But outside of our top 3, we have Glazachev, Soin, Shafigullin, Segal, Pivko (who would have played in the NHL this year), Meidl. I don't pretend it's superior to the Ducks. But I do think it's not a great enough disparity to outweight the sizeable advantage on Defense and the breakeven in net.

I have nothing against the Ducks group (though you cannot say likewise with Nashville). I am not trying to bring them down. I have no personal vendetta against Duck fans (ditto the previous parenthetical statement) and I don't let it jade my opinion.

 

[SmokeyClause]

Hint: they play in the same league. Start guessing.

The players mentioned...

Lassila (FNL)
Finley (AHL/OHL)
Suter (NCAA)
Weber (WHL)
Niskala (FNL)
Setzinger (FNL)
Radulov (RSL/QMJHL)
Shishkanov (AHL/RSL/QMJHL)
Upshall (AHL/WHL)

Well, only three possible groups (the CHL as a whole), the AHL, and the FNL come into play using your criteria. You knock every one on here but Suter (and possibly Upshall). So it appears you've seen your fair share of hockey if you can muster up legit comments on each. What a jet-setter. So I must ask, is it the AHL? Because if it is, I am shocked you've seen more Admirals games than our writer Eriks who lives in Milwaukee and goes to every home game and many road matches as well.

If not, it might be the FNL, as you seem to have seen these players quite a bit due to your indepth knowledge of their impending failure. Could be true, but they represent such a small portion of our prospect group that surely you wouldn't base it on that alone

Or is it the CHL, but players like Upshall, Shiskanov, Finley have moved on from the CHL and using first hand knowledge of those players in the junior days would constitute obsolete data.

So tell me, which one is it?

 

[Pepper]

I'll put words in your mouth whenever I deem necessary as long as it's within board rules. If you don't like it, take it somewhere else.

Against the rules or not, it's not very mature in any case.

I merely made an assumption based on all the information given to me, that you would rather have the Duck over the Pred.

Well you made the wrong assumption.

I may have been wrong, though this is only because the difference in talent between Klein and the Duck pair is too much for even you to rationalize.

We agree there's a difference, we disagree how big it is. If you go strictly by the HF rankings, it's not big (and I know about the differences between teams' rankings, this is not the only argument).

If you want to talk about how much more knowledgeable of Predators prospects you are, don't be suprised to see it thrown back at you in a roundabout way.

I specifically mentioned only 3 Preds prospects and when it comes to those three prospects, I'm willing to duke it out anytime with you, just pick your time.

And why would you do this? Is that what makes a prospect core great?

It goes a long way towards it. A good top6 (3f, 2d, 1g) goes a long way to build a great prospect core.

The forward example works, though not as well. Players like Radulov and Shiskanov, neither of whom you like, are top tier offensive prospects. But outside of our top 3, we have Glazachev, Soin, Shafigullin, Segal, Pivko (who would have played in the NHL this year), Meidl. I don't pretend it's superior to the Ducks. But I do think it's not a great enough disparity to outweight the sizeable advantage on Defense and the breakeven in net.

Well we agree to disagree then. IMHO a good top-end with good prospects in every position is more important.

I have nothing against the Ducks group (though you cannot say likewise with Nashville).

Nothing against Predators team either, in fact I very much like Predators, I told some Preds fans over here about the greatness of Zidlicky long before you had seen a single game of his. McKenzie, Grimson and Walker are all my favorite players. So I just hate homers.

 

[SmokeyClause]

So I just hate homers.

So someone is a homer because they defend their teams against what appears to an unfounded (and sorry Peps) an unknowledgable attack.

And there is something fishy when you refuse to pinpoint the players who you hold all the cards to.

 

[Pepper]

The players mentioned...

Lassila (FNL)
Finley (AHL/OHL)
Suter (NCAA)
Weber (WHL)
Niskala (FNL)
Setzinger (FNL)
Radulov (RSL/QMJHL)
Shishkanov (AHL/RSL/QMJHL)
Upshall (AHL/WHL)

Well, only three possible groups (the CHL as a whole), the AHL, and the FNL come into play using your criteria. You knock every one on here but Suter (and possibly Upshall). So it appears you've seen your fair share of hockey if you can muster up legit comments on each. What a jet-setter. So I must ask, is it the AHL? Because if it is, I am shocked you've seen more Admirals games than our writer Eriks who lives in Milwaukee and goes to every home game and many road matches as well.

If not, it might be the FNL, as you seem to have seen these players quite a bit due to your indepth knowledge of their impending failure. Could be true, but they represent such a small portion of our prospect group that surely you wouldn't base it on that alone

Or is it the CHL, but players like Upshall, Shiskanov, Finley have moved on from the CHL and using first hand knowledge of those players in the junior days would constitute obsolete data.

So tell me, which one is it?

CHL = a collection of 3 independent leagues with only a single tournament really binding those 3 leagues. Nice try anyway.

So the answer is FNL which I follow every day, I've seen Niskala, Lassila and Seitzinger play more than any of you. And never I said I know more about all Preds prospects than you do, I said I pretty much get to read the same information as you do.

 

[SmokeyClause]

CHL = a collection of 3 independent leagues with only a single tournament really binding those 3 leagues. Nice try anyway.

So the answer is FNL which I follow every day, I've seen Niskala, Lassila and Seitzinger play more than any of you. And never I said I know more about all Preds prospects than you do, I said I pretty much get to read the same information as you do.

This is what I was hoping for. Because you follow the FNL, you can now tell us about our prospects as a whole. But how many times have you seen the rest of prospect core? You know, the Webers, Radulovs, Upshalls, Finleys? You seem to have a good bit of knowledge on these guys (alteast how they'll all fail). Atleast the Preds fan have actually seen both in person AND in video the players they are talking about. I'd be impressed if you could do likewise. You can take your sizeable advantage with Niskala, Lassila and Setzinger. And we'll take Radulov, Finley, Upshall, Weber, Klein, Shishkanov, Hutchinson, etc.

And what's the L in CHL stand for? Just curious. I had to throw out all options and they happen to be one of them.

Nice try Pep.

 

[Enoch]

No offense but I simply can't see you being able to give an objective analysis of Preds prospects vs. prospects of other teams. Too much homerism involved, strictly IMHO of course.

Goaltending quality pretty low, depth average. Lassila looks ok but he will never be a true no.1 goalie in the NHL. Finley most likely won't reach his potential.

Defense is very solid, no question but after Suter there's no 1st/2nd pairing d-men on the horizon, Weber isn't worth 7B IMHO, 6C would be closer. The fact that you have Niskala 4th tells a lot, Niskala has career euroleaguer (albeit a good one) written all over him. Oh and there's no way he's a 6.5B, even 6C is probably too much.

Center has no quality and no depth, Setzinger will never make it to NHL either (lack of size & skills) and if he's your no.1 center prospect, you're in trouble. Seriously.

Of wingers only Radulov and Shishkanov have top6 potential and the former is unlikely at best to reach that potential (just look at his brother). Upshall has career 3rd liner (good one though) written all over him, 15g 20a potential. The rest are, well, nothing to write home about. I'd suprised to see more than 2 of those ever make it to NHL.

Here is your quote. I really do not need to explain my post, but to give you the benefit of the doubt, I actually went back and checked. Low and behold, I found this gem outlining the exact things I have said.

1.) You take an almost all out negative view of the Nashville prospect base (thats fine unless you fall prey to point no. 2)
2.) You support these views with no substance, and you still have not offered up anything of merit yet.
3.) You made a judgement on one of our top prospects failing simply because his brother is currenty not succeeding up to your standards in the NHL.

Furthermore -

4.) You have now seen our prospect core 10X more than any Pred HFer, our writers, etc.
5.) You make a team-to-team comparison heavily in the favor of the team you support, and claim Pred fans are biased.
6.) Finally (this correlates with no. 2), when asked to present ANYTHING of substance regarding Nashville's group of prospect so that a debate over it can be formed, you dodge every attempt.

You claimed I needed a "grip on reality", but from my perspective.....Your the one that needs to step back and start reviewing and responding to some of the accusations/claims you have made in this thread concerning not only the Predator's prospects, but also their fans here at HF.

 

[Pepper]

So someone is a homer because they defend their teams against what appears to an unfounded (and sorry Peps) an unknowledgable attack.

No, someone is a homer when the standard reply to post questioning Preds prospects is labeled as 'unknowledgeable', 'unfounded' etc.

It seems that you think there's no way you can be wrong about the Preds prospects.

Sorry, that reply of yours simply reeks of the very homerism I was talking about.

 

[Pepper]

You can take your sizeable advantage with Niskala, Lassila and Setzinger. And we'll take Radulov, Finley, Upshall, Weber, Klein, Shishkanov, Hutchinson, etc.

Please go ahead, never claimed anything else.

And what's the L in CHL stand for? Just curious. I had to throw out all options and they happen to be one of them.

So, who won CHL last year? I can't find the regular season standings anywhere with complete listing. Unless you're tlaking about Central Hockey League?

 

[Enoch]

No, someone is a homer when the standard reply to post questioning Preds prospects is labeled as 'unknowledgeable', 'unfounded' etc.

It seems that you think there's no way you can be wrong about the Preds prospects.

Sorry, that reply of yours simply reeks of the very homerism I was talking about.

Your posts are unknowledgable, at least from anyone else's perspective while reading this thread. You completely downed the entire Predator prospect list because you watched our no. 2 ranked goalie, a guy we have practically given up on in Oliver Setzinger, and a recent draftee in Janne Niskala - and I'm assuming didn't like their play. You have zero substance for any of your claims, even the one I just mentioned, as you have yet to provide any reason whatsoever for your dislikes or reasons for thinking they will fail.

 

[Chimaera]

Having Schremp at a 9 is a joke. Period. It laughs at the ranking system that I probably thought was a good idea at the time, but seems to be going the opposite way.

He should not be a 9, in fact, I think it is pretty hard to judge anyone as a potential Hall of Famer at this point in time in their career.



Especially when you consider Malkin is only an 8.5. A guy taken a few spots ahead and arguably the better prospect. Schremp does have a lot of talent, but to put him up there in the 9, i.e. likely hall of famer category is ludicrous. A guy like Al Montoya is still only an 8.5, and there are plenty of other players who have done more to and showed more to earn a good ranking than Schremp.

Yes, Schremp was a good pick, or he could be a large bust. He's a gamble, just that. But he doesn't have the potential to be a world beater. If he did other teams would have ignored his being a punk and taken him anyway. The talent you are describing him having would have superceded any attitude problems.

 

[Pepper]

Here is your quote. I really do not need to explain my post, but to give you the benefit of the doubt, I actually went back and checked. Low and behold, I found this gem outlining the exact things I have said.

And here's what you claimed I said:

"well his brother isn't currently succeeding...and...oh I haven't heard him making waves so he must be bad"."

Which is completely different. I hope you understand the difference now.

2.) You support these views with no substance, and you still have not offered up anything of merit yet.

This is only your opinion, there's plenty of substance you just happen to disagree with.

3.) You made a judgement on one of our top prospects failing simply because his brother is currenty not succeeding up to your standards in the NHL.

No I didn't, I'm not gonna explain you the difference any more. It's not my problem if your reading comprehension is not good enough.

4.) You have now seen our prospect core 10X more than any Pred HFer, our writers, etc.

Again, I did not say anything like that, I was talking about 3 prospects. Learn to read.

5.) You make a team-to-team comparison heavily in the favor of the team you support, and claim Pred fans are biased.

Once again, I did this ranking simply to show why it's possible to argue that your prospects are overrated. I said it clearly, so learn to read & learn to comprehend.

Your the one that needs to step back and start reviewing and responding to some of the accusations/claims you have made in this thread concerning not only the Predator's prospects,

Wait a sec, I voice my opinion about some Preds fans and you make it sound like I committed a felony?

THIS IS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM I WAS TALKING ABOUT. I did not make ANY accusation whatsoever, this is not a criminal court for crying out loud! It was my opinion about your prospects, if you can't handle it you better go elsewhere. You're too much of a homer to even admit that you can't handle any criticism towards your prospects. I do not claim to be right or wrong, I simply voiced my opinion. You should learn to respect others' opinions instead of that crap you're telling me.

 

[Pepper]

Your posts are unknowledgable, at least from anyone else's perspective while reading this thread. You completely downed the entire Predator prospect list because you watched our no. 2 ranked goalie, a guy we have practically given up on in Oliver Setzinger, and a recent draftee in Janne Niskala - and I'm assuming didn't like their play. You have zero substance for any of your claims, even the one I just mentioned, as you have yet to provide any reason whatsoever for your dislikes or reasons for thinking they will fail.

So far I have provided much more substance than you have, your only contribution to this thread is wild swings against other poster who dared to disagree with the ranking of your prospect.

Why is it that Canucks fans have not reacted in any way despite me calling their ranking too high? Only 2 Preds fans started this whole mess.