Hockey's Future Fall 2004 Org Rankings 1-10

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crossxcheck

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Pepper, buddy, why don't you explain to us what igor has to do with alexander. While you're at it explain to me how tuomo ruutu stinks just because his brother jarkko is not exactly "lighting it up." That's a stupid argument and when you start saying crap like that then you lose any kind of credibility. Have you ever even seen alexander play?

Also, explain to us IN DETAIL why janne niskala stinks eventhough he's scored more goal an FNL season than zidlicky ever did. I've never seen niskala play an actual game but I did see him at the rookie camp this year. From what I saw he had a similar set of skills that zidlicky has. I was impressed. I also follow him on a daily basis and know that right now he has 6 points in 7 games. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but we as preds fans would at least like your "scouting report" on the guy. Explain why he's so bad.
 
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Pepper

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crossxcheck said:
Pepper, buddy, why don't you explain to us what igor has to do with alexander. While you're at it explain to me how tuomo ruutu stinks just because his brother jarkko is not exactly "lighting it up." That's a stupid argument and when you start saying crap like that then you lose any kind of credibility. Have you ever even seen alexander play?

Listen, I did not say that Alexander will fail because his brother has not so far made it, I said simply to illustrate my point that it could happen very easily.

Btw, Jarkko Ruutu is a regular in the NHL and he was never touted to be anything else than 3rd/4th liner so your analogy doesn't work here.

crossxcheck said:
Also, explain to us IN DETAIL why janne niskala stinks eventhough he's scored more goal an FNL season than zidlicky ever did.

Because IN MY OPINION, Niskala's game doesn't work very well in the NHL whereas Zidlicky's style was extremely well suited for NHL. You have to look beyond the stats you know. Again, it's my opinion, no need to get so aggravated because of it!!
 

crossxcheck

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Pepper said:
Listen, I did not say that Alexander will fail because his brother has not so far made it, I said simply to illustrate my point that it could happen very easily.

still a ridiculous argument.

Pepper said:
Btw, Jarkko Ruutu is a regular in the NHL and he was never touted to be anything else than 3rd/4th liner so your analogy doesn't work here.

quite similar, actually. jarkko was a 3rd round pick and so was igor (who obviously wasn't ever held in THAT high of a regard). Alexander and Tuomo were both first rounders. So my point is that simply because the two are brothers what does that have to do with anything??

You've still yet to answer if you've even seen alexander radulov play.


Pepper said:
Because IN MY OPINION, Niskala's game doesn't work very well in the NHL whereas Zidlicky's style was extremely well suited for NHL. You have to look beyond the stats you know. Again, it's my opinion, no need to get so aggravated because of it!!

That's fine. I wanted your opinion, but is this your idea of "IN DETAIL." I say they seem to have a similar set of skillss from what I've seen and both have nice point totals in FNL and you say this? Explain what's different about the two's styles. Explain why niskala's isn't suited to the NHL. If you're going to tell us stuff at least provide some insight.
 

nomorekids

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Pepper said:
Listen, I did not say that Alexander will fail because his brother has not so far made it, I said simply to illustrate my point that it could happen very easily.

Btw, Jarkko Ruutu is a regular in the NHL and he was never touted to be anything else than 3rd/4th liner so your analogy doesn't work here.

Yes, you pretty much did. You did not say that Alexander "could" fail because Igor hasn't been much to write home about. You said that Alexander "probably wouldn't" reach his potential. Gee, that's a pretty bold statement, considering Alexander is only 18 and just came to North America(where he has 5 goals in 6 games, mind you). Now, if you had said that guys like Radulov and Finley "MIGHT NOT" reach their potential...then I might agree with you. On the other hand...Getzlaf, Perry and even Lupul "might not" reach theirs, either. In fact...Ovechkin "might not" reach his potential. Crosby "might not" reach his. That's the funny thing about prospects...they're a gamble until they've made you a believer, and Alexander has just as much of a chance of being a top scorer in the league as he does being a tremendous bust. I can accept the bust risk, but can you accept "the scorer risk?"

As for the the statement that Jarkko Ruutu wasn't expected to be any more than he is...I can counter that Igor Radulov wasn't really expected to be more than he is, either. He was considered more of a high-risk, high-reward type of player. Alexander, from the get-go, was distinguished from his brother as being more of a "sure thing," and it was pointed out that his skill set was considerably higher than Igor's. Having seen him play already, and keeping track of his numbers\accounts from QMJHL fans...it would seem to be true. I've never seen an 18 year old stickhandle and maneuver in traffic the way he does. You can accuse me of being a "homer" and "overrating" Radulov, but I feel that he's actually one of the more UNDERRATED draft picks from last year, when you have guys like Korpikoski and even Dubnyk being touted ahead of him. Russian scouts don't toss around comparisons to Alexander Mogilny and Pavel Bure every day, after all.
 

SmokeyClause

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Pepper said:
Please go ahead, never claimed anything else.

So, who won CHL last year? I can't find the regular season standings anywhere with complete listing. Unless you're tlaking about Central Hockey League?

Oh yes you did, until you recanted.

And you said league. It is the CHL and the L stands for league. My point remains and that's why I included it. Hell, I even left the disclaimer for the fact that it was a conglomeration of leagues.
 

Enoch

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Pepper said:
And here's what you claimed I said:

"well his brother isn't currently succeeding...and...oh I haven't heard him making waves so he must be bad"."

Which is completely different. I hope you understand the difference now.

Since you refuse to own up to your words, in this very thread, I will just simply quote them. I mean, its not hard for me to recall what you said. I just have to click page 1 and presto -

Pepper said:
Finley should have progressed faster by now, he hasn't really done anything to impress me so far. Granted, I don't get to see him play that much but he's not making too many waves which one could expect from highly-drafted goalie prospect. He's not in my top10 goalie prospect list, and a 7C rating is nothing special.

Yes, we agree to disagree. I have noticed that Nashville has couple of, ahem, over-zealous fans here who seem to overrate their players while underrating others.

So basically, you dismissed a player, even though you hadn't seen him, because he didn't make "waves". Not to mention, your only reason for claiming Radulov would fail was because his brother isn't performing up to some high standard that you seem to have set for him. Then to top it off, you have the audacity to claim that Nashville fans are overrating our prospects, etc. For the record, I don't see anyone here bumping our touting our prospects. You came on this thread and completely downed every single one of the Preds prospects, and you had zero reasons, no substance, no scouting reports, and no statisical analysis's to back up anything you purposed.

Pepper said:
This is only your opinion, there's plenty of substance you just happen to disagree with.

What substance are you referring to? I mean seriously? Is it your Igor Radulov comment in comparison to Alexander Radulov? If thats your substance, its absolutely asinine. The only thing you have brought forward is that you follow the FHL, and from what I understood in your post, I'm not even sure if you actually see these guys play live. So basically, you rip our entire prospect pool and their rankings because you see 3 of our low-end prospects.....thats laughable.



Pepper said:
No I didn't, I'm not gonna explain you the difference any more. It's not my problem if your reading comprehension is not good enough.

My reading comprehension is just fine. I already presented you with your exact quote on that very subject.


Pepper said:
Again, I did not say anything like that, I was talking about 3 prospects. Learn to read.

Actually, this was not your orginal claim at all. It was only after SmokeyClause's pressing, in his posts, about your claim to know the Predator's prospects 10X better than anyone else here, that caused you to wilt and go back and change your statements. Here is your exact quote on the matter at hand. You went back and changed it now, but this is taken from post 100, with the original quote in context:

Again you make wild assumptions out of nowhere! Of those prospects I mentioned in my original post, I can guarantee that I've most certainly seen 10x more than you or any other Nashville writer here and I have read probably just/nearly as much about the rest as you. So please don't humiliate yourself any further by making stupid claims & assumptions.



Pepper said:
Once again, I did this ranking simply to show why it's possible to argue that your prospects are overrated. I said it clearly, so learn to read & learn to comprehend.

The point here is that YOU accused Pred fans of being homers numerous times in this thread without merit. Yet when it comes down to it, your the one that exhibits extreme biasm by slanting a prospect comparison to favor your team. Go figure that one out!



Pepper said:
Wait a sec, I voice my opinion about some Preds fans and you make it sound like I committed a felony?

THIS IS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM I WAS TALKING ABOUT. I did not make ANY accusation whatsoever, this is not a criminal court for crying out loud! It was my opinion about your prospects, if you can't handle it you better go elsewhere. You're too much of a homer to even admit that you can't handle any criticism towards your prospects. I do not claim to be right or wrong, I simply voiced my opinion. You should learn to respect others' opinions instead of that crap you're telling me.

Committed a felony, hardly. Being a hypocrite and making senseless accusations, yes. You accused us of being homers. You downed our prospects with no substance AT ALL. You continue to post zero substance in any of your posts and instead resort to tactics like "Learn to read" "You can't comprehend" "Go somewhere else". Why should I leave this boards because one poster refuses to admit when he made a few tactless comments. What did you expect when you made your post? A rose and a kiss on the cheek? If you want to debate prospects and claim an entire organizations prospect group is overrated/going to fail (save for Suter), then be prepared to have people asking you to support those claims with something.
 

Pepper

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Enoch said:
Since you refuse to own up to your words, in this very thread, I will just simply quote them. I mean, its not hard for me to recall what you said. I just have to click page 1 and presto -

Presto indeed, I suggest you compare your version of my alleged claims to the real quotes, do it several times and you might start understanding the difference between them. You once again make empty assumtions based on your own twisted version of my posts.

Grow up.

Enoch said:
Then to top it off, you have the audacity to claim that Nashville fans are overrating our prospects, etc.

Listen to yourself! In my opinion you overrate your prospects, it's only my opinion and nothing else. Calm down, are you really that insecure about your prospects that you need to attack me simply for posting an opinion which differs from yours??

You make it sound like claiming Preds fans (not all, just a couple mind you) overrate their prospects is a felony or something.

Enoch said:
You came on this thread and completely downed every single one of the Preds prospects, and you had zero reasons, no substance, no scouting reports, and no statisical analysis's to back up anything you purposed.

1) I didn't down all your prospects, learn to count.

2) I don't need any reason to voice my opinion about the rankings

3) I offered my opinion about FEW prospects, remember that scouting reports are all opinions as well.

Enoch said:
I'm not even sure if you actually see these guys play live. So basically, you rip our entire prospect pool and their rankings because you see 3 of our low-end prospects.....thats laughable.

What's laughable is you going off the tanget & your hysterical hyperboles.

Yes, I have seen them all play live, numerous times. Something that you or Nashville writer hasn't done. And once again, I didn't rip your entire prospect pool.

Btw, you call your 2nd best goalie prospect, your top center prospect and no.4 d-man prospect 'low-end' prospects?? And here I thought you had great depth...

Enoch said:
Actually, this was not your orginal claim at all. It was only after SmokeyClause's pressing, in his posts, about your claim to know the Predator's prospects 10X better than anyone else here, that caused you to wilt and go back and change your statements.

That's total BS, if you look at my original post it should be clear to anyone with basic grasp of grammar that the 2-3 missing words were intended to be there all the time, the sentence wouldn't make any sense otherwise.

Enoch said:
Committed a felony, hardly. Being a hypocrite and making senseless accusations, yes. You accused us of being homers. You downed our prospects with no substance AT ALL.

Just as much substance as you have provided here.

Enoch said:
You continue to post zero substance in any of your posts and instead resort to tactics like "Learn to read" "You can't comprehend" "Go somewhere else". Why should I leave this boards because one poster refuses to admit when he made a few tactless comments.

Yes, I said those things because you were CONSTANTLY putting words to my mouth, twisting my comments & making totally baseless assumptions.

Btw, I was told by fellow Preds fan of yours (a moderator to boot) this:

I'll put words in your mouth whenever I deem necessary as long as it's within board rules. If you don't like it, take it somewhere else.

so I guess it's ok to tell posters to go somewhere else if they don't like something.

This is my final post about this off-the-topic argument, no need to spam these boards with this and I apologize for my part.

Feel free to have the last word, I'll reply via PM.
 

MBJets

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2004 Furture Watch

Guy Flaming said:
On behalf of the committee, your welcome. We're happy that the vast majority of the feedback has been supportive and the expected negative feedback has been coming from a small portion of the overall readership and from just a handful of teams.

The top 50 Prospects List is next...

THANKYOU FOR YOUR WORK.
 

Enoch

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Pepper said:
Presto indeed, I suggest you compare your version of my alleged claims to the real quotes, do it several times and you might start understanding the difference between them. You once again make empty assumtions based on your own twisted version of my posts.

Grow up.

Again, you refuse to own up to your own words. I proved that my quotes were not a twisted version of your posts, by quoting exactly what you said. You DID say those things, and if you want to continue to deny it, feel free, but its all there in black and white.



Pepper said:
Listen to yourself! In my opinion you overrate your prospects, it's only my opinion and nothing else. Calm down, are you really that insecure about your prospects that you need to attack me simply for posting an opinion which differs from yours??

You make it sound like claiming Preds fans (not all, just a couple mind you) overrate their prospects is a felony or something.

I'm not insecure about our prospect list at all. Its not a felony to claim we overrate our prospects, and I just stated so numerous times in my previous post. All that happened in this thread is - you came on the thread in your first post downing our entire prospect base, yet you provided NOTHING and I repeat again NOTHING to back up any of your claims. When pressed throughout this thread, the only thing you have come up with in a way to back up your claims is you have watched Teemu Lassila, Oliver Setzinger, and Janne Niskala quite a bit. Big deal. You have still yet to offer up any reasons why they will fail, except that you feel Niskala's game isn't suited to the NHL. All I'm saying here is this - YOU accuse us, YOU down our prospects, and then when we come to our defense on equal occasions, YOU try to turn the table and call us homers/overreaacting. Quit accusing people for baseless reasons and none of this would have happened. It seems the one thing you fall back on in this thread, when people corner you in an argument, is calling them a homer or some other derrogartory remark about their reading comprehension. Bottomline - Your telling everyone else to grow up, but I can only see one person in this thread who needs to take that advice.

Pepper said:
1) I didn't down all your prospects, learn to count.

2) I don't need any reason to voice my opinion about the rankings

3) I offered my opinion about FEW prospects, remember that scouting reports are all opinions as well.

Selective memory. Go read your first few posts where you did just do that. You basically said all of our prospects would fail, save for Upshall who may be a good 3rd liner and Ryan Suter. Yet when pressed on why this would happen, you fell back to your "I don't need to defend my claims. Your a homer. Go learn to read" comments. Give me a break! You can voice your opinion about the rankings, I don't care. However, I can voice MY opinion about the lack of substance or reasons behind your pathetic attempt to down our whole future here at Nashville. It goes both ways.



Pepper said:
What's laughable is you going off the tanget & your hysterical hyperboles.

Yes, I have seen them all play live, numerous times. Something that you or Nashville writer hasn't done. And once again, I didn't rip your entire prospect pool.

We did get a chance to see Lassila at traing camp this year, and as for Setzinger...he came over last year before bailing when being assinged to the minors. So yes, I have seen them play. I can't see them often because they play in the SM Liga. Regardless, I still have a good feel for their abilities, as do many others here at HF our writer included.

Pepper said:
Btw, you call your 2nd best goalie prospect, your top center prospect and no.4 d-man prospect 'low-end' prospects?? And here I thought you had great depth...

The only one I'm really excited about is Lassila. I think he can be a starter in this league, and with Finely closing in on an NHL job, I believe he will be coming to Milwuakee to start here in a few years. Still, Setzinger basically abandoned this team a few years ago because he refused to play in the minors. I seriously doubt we will ever see him again in a Nashville uniform, simply because he wants to start immeadiately in the NHL. Maybe he will - Maybe he won't. As for Niskala, we just drafted him, and regardless of his placement on our team, we have a plethora of defensemen that could be just as good as him. Mukachev, Sulzer, Stehlik, Hutchinson....I'm not worried if you dismiss one of our many top defensive prospects....we still have excellent depth there.



Pepper said:
That's total BS, if you look at my original post it should be clear to anyone with basic grasp of grammar that the 2-3 missing words were intended to be there all the time, the sentence wouldn't make any sense otherwise.

:lol It made perfect sense the first time, and the only reason you went back and changed it is because it was an utterly foolish comment. If no one had called you on it, I seriously doubt you would have changed it. It was only until you were badgered about such a ridiculous claim that you relented and went back and tried to change your post. The fact of the matter is, you claimed you knew our prospect core 10X better than all of us, and when it was being pointed out how pathetic that claim was, you changed your story to the FNL only. Go get em tiger!



Pepper said:
Just as much substance as you have provided here.

I don't need substance in my posts because I haven't been talking about prospects. I have been merely pointing out how misguided your claims are. If you wanted to know my thoughts on our prospect pool, you should have provided substance of your own for which we could debate with. I invited you to do that in my first post, and you never did throughout this thread. If you want to know my opinions, I'll break a few of them down for you right now -

Shishkanov - Tremendous offensive talent, with good size to back it up. He works for the puck offensively, but has been knocked for his defensive awareness. To play under Trotz's system any time soon, he has to be defensively responsible.

Glazachev - Thought to be one of the true offensive talents the Preds had drafted at the time, this kid has all the tools to be an offensive wizard. However, he struggled last year through an injury forming questions about his ability to perform at a higher level, and has showed a reluctance to come over to NA which is worrisome for us Pred fans.

Radulov - One of the top 5 offensive talents in the draft, the Preds picked up this RWer to add even more offensive flair to their prospect base. He has a tall frame, but is extremely thin. He needs to bulk up considerably. His on the ice play, though, leaves nothing to be desired. He works hard and has a fiery competitive attitude.

Suter - Arguably the best defensive prospect, along with Dion Phaneuf of the Calgary Flames. Suter is projected to be better than Dan Hamhuis , and his offensive zone awareness is eeriely similar to Rob Blake - who can hold the puck in the offensive zone better than anyone bar none. He also needs to add a little size and continue to improve on his offensive game. Wisconsin had him focus on defense last year, but it was evident that he has a plethora of offensive skills that he can use if given the oppurtunity.

I could do more, but its really not worth my time. Suffice to say I think several of our prospects have weaknesses. I doubt we are able to attract Glazachev or Setzinger to come play here in Nashville unless the salary structure of the NHL seriously changes. I'm worried about Upshall's health problems from last year, although he has supposedly made a big commitment to bulk up/play healthy this year. Time will tell, but I think you would find, if you actually talked with some substance in your threads, that many Pred fans are down to earth about our prospects.


Pepper said:
Yes, I said those things because you were CONSTANTLY putting words to my mouth, twisting my comments & making totally baseless assumptions.

I put zero words in your mouth, and I never once twisted your comments. I just threw them back in your face, which can be extremely irritating when they are lacking in substance/reason.


so I guess it's ok to tell posters to go somewhere else if they don't like something.

Sure you can, and you have done so many times. I agree with what Smokey said, and he was right. If he was under board rules, he can do whatever he wants. The trick is, in a debate, to prove others wrong and point out when you didn't say something. I have done that with you, and he did that with you later on.

Pepper said:
This is my final post about this off-the-topic argument, no need to spam these boards with this and I apologize for my part.

Feel free to have the last word, I'll reply via PM.

Good for you. I'm surprised it took you this long to realize that its hard to back up your claims when you had no reason or substance to support them in the first place.
 

triggrman

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Center is the Predators weakest link, however if basing it on talent alone, Soin is our best prospect. He'll only come over for the NHL though so chances of him making it are smaller than Olivers so that's the difference in the ratings. I could also argue that Stehlik is our number 4 dman. I'd also like to say that Segal, Pivko, Mukhachev and Hutchinson are all NHL ready, or atleast according to Poile, who knows much, much more than you (so that's 4 of our 11-20), now they may all be low end role players, but teams need those too.
 

Pepper

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I would not like to continue this but you make so blatant lies here that I just have to correct you.

Enoch said:
Again, you refuse to own up to your own words. I proved that my quotes were not a twisted version of your posts, by quoting exactly what you said. You DID say those things, and if you want to continue to deny it, feel free, but its all there in black and white.

This was written by you, claiming that I said this:

well his brother isn't currently succeeding...and...oh I haven't heard him making waves so he must be bad"

Question: is that an exact quote of my post, did I use exactly those words YES OR NO?

Enoch said:
You basically said all of our prospects would fail, save for Upshall who may be a good 3rd liner and Ryan Suter.

Please provide an EXACT QUOTE where I said ALL of Preds prospects other than Suter and Upshall will fail. Remember, EXACT QUOTE.

Enoch said:
It made perfect sense the first time, and the only reason you went back and changed it is because it was an utterly foolish comment.

Tell why would I use a sentence like that if I was going to say I've seen all those prospects mentioned 10x more than any of Preds writers?? It would have been much simpler to say "I've seen all those prospects mentioned play 10x more than any Preds writer". I'm not a native english speaker so correct me if I'm wrong but if I start a sentence with "of those prospects mentioned...", it's meant to point at only part of those players instead of the whole group?

Also, I already admitted earlier that I haven't seen some of your prospects play much, why on earth would I then claim that I've seen all of them play 10x more than any Preds writer??? It doesn't make any sense!

Enoch said:
I put zero words in your mouth, and I never once twisted your comments.

Yes you did, proved by the quotes I showed you earlier in this thread.
 

crossxcheck

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SGT. PEPPER:

I'm still waiting for your DETAILED scouting report on janne niskala. What is it about his game that isn't suited to the NHL? What are the stark differences between him and marek zidlicky? Thanks!
 

Enoch

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Pepper said:
I would not like to continue this but you make so blatant lies here that I just have to correct you......Question: is that an exact quote of my post, did I use exactly those words YES OR NO?

Yes you did. I already proved it with the quotes in two separate posts. For the third time, I guess I will have to post them again?!?!

Pepper said:
the former is unlikely at best to reach that potential (just look at his brother)
Pepper said:
Granted, I don't get to see him play that much but he's not making too many waves

There are your quotes, and they were your reasons for dismissing the players. Spin it how you want, but this is indeed what you said.


Pepper said:
Please provide an EXACT QUOTE where I said ALL of Preds prospects other than Suter and Upshall will fail. Remember, EXACT QUOTE.

Okay, I'm not sure what you want here, but if you want me to prove that you basically dismissed all of our prospects out of hand save for Suter and to a lesser degree Upshall, I can do that quite easily. Heck, just read all your posts in this thread - they speak for themselves.

Pepper said:
No offense.......The rest are, well, nothing to write home about. I'd suprised to see more than 2 of those ever make it to NHL.

I cut out the majority of the post that you wanted, simply because it would take a lifetime to read. Its post no. 32 and here is a direct link for those that care:

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=1959291&postcount=32


Pepper said:
Tell why would I use a sentence like that if I was going to say I've seen all those prospects mentioned 10x more than any of Preds writers?? It would have been much simpler to say "I've seen all those prospects mentioned play 10x more than any Preds writer". I'm not a native english speaker so correct me if I'm wrong but if I start a sentence with "of those prospects mentioned...", it's meant to point at only part of those players instead of the whole group?

This is what you said:

Again you make wild assumptions out of nowhere! Of those prospects I mentioned in my original post, I can guarantee that I've most certainly seen 10x more than you or any other Nashville writer here and I have read probably just/nearly as much about the rest as you. So please don't humiliate yourself any further by making stupid claims & assumptions.

I think the audacity, as well as the hilarity of that comment speaks for itself.

Pepper said:
Also, I already admitted earlier that I haven't seen some of your prospects play much, why on earth would I then claim that I've seen all of them play 10x more than any Preds writer??? It doesn't make any sense!

Good question. Your posts haven't made a lot of sense. Thats the point, you have made zero sense since you started. When asked to clarify your stance or to provide substance, you can't, instead you make fun of the posters that call you out. Keep it coming, I can't wait for you to tell my how bad my learning comprehension/reading ability is after I have provided you with your exact words for the second/third time.
 
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