Hockey History: Who was better than Crosby?

[Karl Eriksson]

Jagr should also at least be an option.

Yeah, Crosby third best penguin of all time.

 

[Voight]

In the 7-12 range

 

[daver]

Yeah, Crosby third best penguin of all time.

Based on what?

 

[GRob83]

Why include a goaltender in a poll about Crosby? I'd comfortably say that 100% of fans would say Roy and Hasek are both in the Top 4 of goalies of all time, and 100% of non-biased Penguins fans would agree that Crosby is outside the Top 4 of forwards so by that logic, Roy>Crosby

 

[Midnight Judges]

Pretty sure the 10 listed are the Top 10 according to the HOH poll from a couple years ago - don't think the names were pulled randomly.

Ah, that makes sense for why it's such a terrible list. The nutty little cabal in the history forum has some outlandish opinions. One of their highly respected regulars thinks Getzlaf has been a better player than Ovechkin.

Another highly respected history forum regular had Wayne Gretzky ranked 7th all time.

 

[topshelf15]

Like Ovie does it really matter????To be mentioned among that group means you are one of the very best

 

[JackSlater]

Crosby is obviously behind Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, and Howe. After that you can make a case that he's above everyone else. At the very least he's right in that group of players jockeying for the fifth spot. I'd put Hasek fifth but in my eyes Crosby would get picked soon after.

 

[daver]

Why include a goaltender in a poll about Crosby? I'd comfortably say that 100% of fans would say Roy and Hasek are both in the Top 4 of goalies of all time, and 100% of non-biased Penguins fans would agree that Crosby is outside the Top 4 of forwards so by that logic, Roy>Crosby

Who are the four forwards?

 

[J bo Jeans]

We don't seriously think Howe was a "better" player than Crosby right? Is he a "greater" player? Probably. But it terms of being better at the sport of hockey? No.

 

[steierwrass]

Who are the four forwards?

Orr would be better even as forward?

 

[GRob83]

Who are the four forwards?

It depends how you look at it. I think Center's are more likely to accumulate point's in bunches so even though Gretzky and Lemieux are obvious choices i'd lean towards including some wingers in the top 4. Richard (14 straight 1st or 2nd All-Star selections) Ovechkin (More Pearson wins, More Hart wins, way more Richard wins and total goals than Crosby). Then there's Jagr who was the most dominant player of the 90's/2000's including the dead puck era though he never led the league in goals. And then there's Gordie Howe who was a 21 time all star and 6 time Hart trophy winner.

So basically i'd choose the 2 best centers, the best right wing and the best left wing. Crosby has missed too much time in his career IMO.

 

[Voight]

We don't seriously think Howe was a "better" player than Crosby right? Is he a "greater" player? Probably. But it terms of being better at the sport of hockey? No.

.... why not?

 

[illpucks]

I think Ovechkin deserves to be in this poll. Also why is Roy there over Hasek? Hasek was superior.

Voted for the big 4.

All the players on the list are Canadian

 

[North Cole]

Ah, that makes sense for why it's such a terrible list. The nutty little cabal in the history forum has some outlandish opinions. One of their highly respected regulars thinks Getzlaf has been a better player than Ovechkin.

Another highly respected history forum regular had Wayne Gretzky ranked 7th all time.

I think that happened so they could get Orr #1.

 

[robsenz]

Top 4 are the only arguement...If McDavid continues his career with the same consistency then he could pass him. But imo there is no one else currently in the league ahead of him

 

[daver]

It depends how you look at it. I think Center's are more likely to accumulate point's in bunches so even though Gretzky and Lemieux are obvious choices i'd lean towards including some wingers in the top 4. Richard (14 straight 1st or 2nd All-Star selections) Ovechkin (More Pearson wins, More Hart wins, way more Richard wins and total goals than Crosby). Then there's Jagr who was the most dominant player of the 90's/2000's including the dead puck era though he never led the league in goals. And then there's Gordie Howe who was a 21 time all star and 6 time Hart trophy winner.

So basically i'd choose the 2 best centers, the best right wing and the best left wing. Crosby has missed too much time in his career IMO.

Using your metrics:

He has played more games than Mario. If he plays literally 50 more games in his career at some key times, he has 3 more Art Rosses/Harts/Lindsays.

He has more Hart wins than Jagr and Richard.

He has as many Lindsays as OV and barely lost a Hart to OV due to a slapshot to the face.

Comparing All Star selections from a six team league to a thirty team league makes no sense. are meaningless

Crosby was objectively better than OV in many of OV's seasons he won the Richard based on Hart voting

 

[GRob83]

Using your metrics:

He has played more games than Mario. If he plays literally 50 more games in his career at some key times, he has 3 more Art Rosses/Harts/Lindsays.

He has more Hart wins than Jagr and Richard.

He has as many Lindsays as OV and barely lost a Hart to OV due to a slapshot to the face.

Comparing All Star selections from a six team league to a thirty team league makes no sense. are meaningless

Crosby was objectively better than OV in many of OV's seasons he won the Richard based on Hart voting

I think the point would be that there is no argument to be made that makes Crosby a better player than Gretzky or Lemieux. Ovechkin is the best LW and best goal-scorer EVER. And 1 of either Jagr, Howe or Richard is the best RW of all-time. Crosby is a fantastic player but he's not in the Top 4 for me.

 

[TheGuiminator]

Crosby would be the clear cut #5 had he stayed healthy during his peak (2010-13), instead he's a marginal top 5 as of right now.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

Obviously took the 4 but for the life of me I can't figure out why you shoehorned the 3rd best goalie onto the list

 

[Regal]

Why include a goaltender in a poll about Crosby? I'd comfortably say that 100% of fans would say Roy and Hasek are both in the Top 4 of goalies of all time, and 100% of non-biased Penguins fans would agree that Crosby is outside the Top 4 of forwards so by that logic, Roy>Crosby

So by that same logic, one of Roy and Hasek is a top 4 player of all time?

 

[daver]

I think the point would be that there is no argument to be made that makes Crosby a better player than Gretzky or Lemieux. Ovechkin is the best LW and best goal-scorer EVER. And 1 of either Jagr, Howe or Richard is the best RW of all-time. Crosby is a fantastic player but he's not in the Top 4 for me.

Seems strange to pick Wayne and Mario over Crosby using different metrics than ones you would apply to pick a winger over Crosby.

 

[GRob83]

So by that same logic, one of Roy and Hasek is a top 4 player of all time?

To be fair, yes. Top 3 should be best of each position.

 

[GRob83]

Seems strange to pick Wayne and Mario over Crosby using different metrics than ones you would apply to pick a winger over Crosby.

So i'm wrong for picking the best wingers of all time over the 3rd or 4th best center of all time?

 

[daver]

So i'm wrong for picking the best wingers of all time over the 3rd or 4th best center of all time?

Yes. Just pick the best players/forwards, period. We aren't picking a historical all-star team.

My main point was the cherrypicking of metrics to argue players over Crosby when you could use those same metrics to argue for Crosby.

 

[DrDangles]

Personally, I have him at 5th, but it's perfectly debatable to have him anywhere between 5-10 right now. Assuming he plays until 40 and finishes his career with 600+ goals and 1600+ points, you'd have to just hate the guy not to pencil him in at 5th.

I don't think there's anything he can realistically do to crack the top 4 at this point, if he wasn't injured during his peak he might've had a chance.