Hockey History: Who was better than Crosby?

[GRob83]

Yes. Just pick the best players/forwards, period. We aren't picking a historical all-star team.

My main point was the cherrypicking of metrics to argue players over Crosby when you could use those same metrics to argue for Crosby.

So Ovechkin and Crosby came into the league in the same season.
Ovechkin; 1st Team All-Star 8X, 2nd Team All-Star 4X.
Crosby; 1st Team All-Star 4X, 2nd Team All-Star 4X

So it's fair to say that Ovechkin has dominated his position group more so than Crosby has over the exact same period of time and has outscored Crosby by 248 Goals but i'm wrong for picking Ovechkin? Crosby is too injury prone and they happen but, that would be like picking Lindros over Iginla. Sorry, but durability and being available to your team matters.

 

[daver]

So Ovechkin and Crosby came into the league in the same season.
Ovechkin; 1st Team All-Star 8X, 2nd Team All-Star 4X.
Crosby; 1st Team All-Star 4X, 2nd Team All-Star 4X

So it's fair to say that Ovechkin has dominated his position group more so than Crosby has over the exact same period of time and has outscored Crosby by 248 Goals but i'm wrong for picking Ovechkin? Crosby is too injury prone and they happen but, that would be like picking Lindros over Iginla. Sorry, but durability and being available to your team matters.

Again, who cares? Just compare them straight up.

Crosby has more higher end seasons than OV despite his injuries as evidenced by Top 3 Art Ross finishes and Hart nominations. OV winning goal titles =/= better season or better player.

 

[GRob83]

Again, who cares? Just compare them straight up.

Crosby has more higher end seasons than OV despite his injuries as evidenced by Top 3 Art Ross finishes and Hart nominations. OV winning goal titles =/= better season or better player.

It's difficult to compare overall production between a playmaking center and a goal scoring winger. However, history suggests that centers typically have higher pts/gp averages compared to wingers and defenseman. I'd say it's easier for Crosby to register an assist than it is for Ovechkin to score a goal so it's all subjective. If I'm taking one of the two for 1 year (Reg. season and Playoffs) I'm taking Ovechkin because of his durability and goal scoring.

 

[daver]

It's difficult to compare overall production between a playmaking center and a goal scoring winger. However, history suggests that centers typically have higher pts/gp averages compared to wingers and defenseman. I'd say it's easier for Crosby to register an assist than it is for Ovechkin to score a goal so it's all subjective. If I'm taking one of the two for 1 year (Reg. season and Playoffs) I'm taking Ovechkin because of his durability and goal scoring.

Maybe it's because centers are the better overall offensive players and defensive players.

Historically, goalscoring is viewed as marginal superior to playmaking when MVPs are being handed out; point production is clearly viewed as superior to both.

 

[Cats2TheCup]

Just the big four. Crosby is the 5th best player of all time

There's a better player than him in Edmonton right now

 

[GRob83]

Maybe it's because centers are the better overall offensive players and defensive players.

Historically, goalscoring is viewed as marginal superior to playmaking when MVPs are being handed out; point production is clearly viewed as superior to both.

Well Ovechkin is the greatest goal scorer of all-time. What is Crosby the greatest ever at? McDavid has already had 2 seasons with more even strength points than Crosby has ever had.

 

[SotasicA]

I went Gretzky, Orr, Harvey and Hull. You could make a case for more, and I wanted to pick some goalies, but with Roy being the only option, opted not to.

 

[SotasicA]

Jagr should also at least be an option.

I'm not sure Jagr ever was the clear cut best player in the world. He just wasn't.

Bobby Hull was. Back-to-back Hart Trophies.

I am shocked at the lack of votes for Doug Harvey. The man won back-to-back-to-back-to-back Norrises. And then three more consecutive Norrises after one year of not winning it. And he changed the game. A major impact in the future of the game. Only Bobby Orr could rival him. Brad Park maybe. But nobody after.

 

[pcruz]

So Ovechkin and Crosby came into the league in the same season.
Ovechkin; 1st Team All-Star 8X, 2nd Team All-Star 4X.
Crosby; 1st Team All-Star 4X, 2nd Team All-Star 4X

So it's fair to say that Ovechkin has dominated his position group more so than Crosby has over the exact same period of time and has outscored Crosby by 248 Goals but i'm wrong for picking Ovechkin? Crosby is too injury prone and they happen but, that would be like picking Lindros over Iginla. Sorry, but durability and being available to your team matters.

Does this count the year he won the All Star nomination on 2 different wing positions?

Because that kind of diminishes the value of those awards, seeing as the people voting for them are either too stupid or biased to be objective.

 

[GRob83]

Does this count the year he won the All Star nomination on 2 different wing positions

It might, I went from hockey-reference but just count 1st Team nominations and still it shows that Ovechkin has been the best at his position twice as often as Crosby over the same period of time.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It might, I went from hockey-reference but just count 1st Team nominations and still it shows that Ovechkin has been the best at his position twice as often as Crosby over the same period of time.

The flaw in comparing that is that center has historically been much deeper with talent than on the wing. Chris Kunitz has a 1st all-star selection at LW, for instance. You'd never, ever find a Kunitz-type player getting 1st all-star at center.

 

[Devil Dancer]

Where's Hasek?

Edit: and Jagr. Poll is broken without them.

Crosby is somewhere in the 10-20 range, depending on how you feel about comparing eras.

 

[daver]

It might, I went from hockey-reference but just count 1st Team nominations and still it shows that Ovechkin has been the best at his position twice as often as Crosby over the same period of time.

Hart Trophy finishes:

Crosby - 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 5, 6

Ovechkin - 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 6, 6, 7, 9

Remove the duplicates

Crosby - 2, 2, 3, 5

Ovechkin - 1, 6, 7, 9

Crosby has the superior Hart resume.

Barely losing one Hart to OV because of a slapshot to the face doesn't change that.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Hart Trophy finishes:

Crosby - 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 5, 6

Ovechkin - 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 6, 6, 7, 9

Remove the duplicates

Crosby - 2, 2, 3, 5

Ovechkin - 1, 6, 7, 9

Crosby has the superior Hart resume.

Barely losing one Hart to OV because of a slapshot to the face doesn't change that.

It must be nice to have the Canadian media acting like a full blown lobbyist firm for their guy.

Unfortunately the players didn't cooperate and have Ovie in the top 3 more times than they have Sid (6-5).

Ovie too lost a Hart due to injury (although it's really a mystery why he lost at all in 2010).

 

[Video Nasty]

The Big Four are all clearly ahead. Hasek is missing.

For me, Crosby is in that group of players where a really good case can be made for each of them residing at any spot between #6-#15.

I don’t place a ton of value on what ifs like others do. Orr and Mario had short, injury plagued careers and it didn’t stop them from filling up their trophy cabinets. Their dominance and presence was clear.

I can see the case for #5 as easily as #15. I think he’s deserving of residing just inside the top 10 which is incredible considering The Big Four have those spots on lockdown and there’s over 100 years of other players battling for spots 5-10.

If it’s a list of only forwards though, he definitely resides inside the top 5.

 

[nowhereman]

Crosby is pretty much as good or better than any player in NHL history outside of Gretz, Mario, Orr and Howe.

All this talk of the big 4... if Crosby hadn't been injured throughout his prime, it would be a big 5.

 

[psycat]

There are like 5 players currently in the league who peaked higher and people try to tell me he is 5th of ALL TIME? Ridiculous.

5th most overrated player of all time after Harvey, Niedermayer, Richard and Kharlamov maybe then again Bergeron exists so guess he miss that cut aswell.

 

[tarheelhockey]

There are like 5 players currently in the league who peaked higher and people try to tell me he is 5th of ALL TIME? Ridiculous.

5th most overrated player of all time after Harvey, Niedermayer, Richard and Kharlamov maybe then again Bergeron exists so guess he miss that cut aswell.

I want to be outraged, but that's a good list of overrated players

edit: except for Harvey. Let's be honest, very few people in 2021 are overrating him. Most hockey fans can't even offer an informed opinion about him, and I don't mean casual fans.

 

[daver]

There are like 5 players currently in the league who peaked higher and people try to tell me he is 5th of ALL TIME? Ridiculous.

5th most overrated player of all time after Harvey, Niedermayer, Richard and Kharlamov maybe then again Bergeron exists so guess he miss that cut aswell.

Who are the five players?

And of these five, are you saying any one of them could be rated #5? If not, who would your rate as #5, and why?

You may want to stretch before undertaking the mental gymnastics you are about to try to pull off.

 

[ole ole]

any poll that lists Roy and not Hasek is highly, highly questionable

3Conn Smythe would seem to disagree with you.

 

[dortt]

3Conn Smythe would seem to disagree with you.

2 hearts, an Olympic MVP and Olympic gold would say otherwise

 

[Beyonder91]

Currently I have Gretzky, Howe, Orr, Lemieux, Hasek, Jagr & Roy ahead of him. Then there are lots of other debatable players...

By the end of his career Sid could be top 5... It would take some major hardware though which seems unlikely with McDavid around.

 

[North Cole]

It might, I went from hockey-reference but just count 1st Team nominations and still it shows that Ovechkin has been the best at his position twice as often as Crosby over the same period of time.

Yes and when you look at the lists of top players in the league its generally dominated by Centres, so a 1AS is harder to get in that position. Is more special to be the best at the position more often against weaker competition, or be the best less while facing better competition? Idk, but there's more nuance than just adding them up IMO.

 

[GRob83]

Yes and when you look at the lists of top players in the league its generally dominated by Centres, so a 1AS is harder to get in that position. Is more special to be the best at the position more often against weaker competition, or be the best less while facing better competition? Idk, but there's more nuance than just adding them up IMO.

The poll/question itself is too vague. It's too subjective trying to rank/classify players of different positions. Ask me if Crosby is a Top 5 center of all-time then yes, sure. Ask me if he is a Top 5 forward of all time then, nope.

 

[AB13]

Peter Forsberg, Jaromir Jagr ”the big four”, Patrick Roy and Dominik Hasek. Maybe Nicklas Lidström.