Hockey History: Who was better than Crosby?
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HotPie
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Yea. It can be fun to debate these things but I really don't know if anyone can definitively say he's above or below a number of guys after the big 4. Depends so much on personal preference.
ted2019
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Nathaniel Skywalker
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- Oct 18, 2013
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HOH had a drunk who played against carpenters ranked above Crosby. Lol.
nowhereman
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You really do need to come up with better excuses than xenophobia and "Canadian bias". It's a sorry, pathetic look.
There are a lot of questionable takes in this thread but this one's a real treat.
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Ovechkin, Malkin, McDavid, Kucherov, Thornton. Sure a couple of them might be debatable, but I mean so are Draisaitl, Kane, Hedman, Karlsson and a couple of goalies aswell, point remains if he is not even clear top 5 for peak of players currently playing it's ridiculous to claim he is 5th best of all time.
I want to be outraged, but that's a good list of overrated players
edit: except for Harvey. Let's be honest, very few people in 2021 are overrating him. Most hockey fans can't even offer an informed opinion about him, and I don't mean casual fans.
Thanks but I must incist on Harvey being there, in fact he might very well be the most overrated player of all time(as a Swede I concede that Forsberg is up there but around these parts he got called out so often for being overrated that he might infact be underrated nowadays) when people rank him above someone like Lidström or Bourque I literally cringe.
I refuse to believe he was so much better than Lidström defensively that it makes up for scoring zero goals in like 6 straight playoffs and in such a comparison the team argument that is so often used against Lidström doesn't really hold up very well- and that's without even going into era arguments. Furthermore he is often hailed as some inventor when Shore did what he did but better ten years earlier.
All wrong. Only Ovechkin has peaked as a better pure goal scorer and McDavid as an offensive player. If you take any one of the guys you mentioned and compared their overall game to Crosby, Crosby comes out on top. At his peak Ovechkin was/is the best goal scorer in the history of the game, at that same peak he was one of the worst defensive forwards in the game. Crosby is absolutely elite at every aspect of the game. Kuch/Kane/Drai/Thornton all at their peaks don't come close to Crosby's 2 way game. You're judging peak solely on offense and ignoring the other 50% of the game.
nowhereman
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It's not ridiculous if you have enough sense to look past outlier peak seasons and evaluate the player on the complete impact of their career. It's also a fools game to discredit Crosby for his lack of all-world peak, since he was injured through most of his prime. But prime Crosby is clearly better than any of those players you mentioned, so I don't really see the logic in your approach to evaluating players. Crosby peaked ahead of Beliveau and Hull, should we remove them from the conversation of 5th best?
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- Feb 10, 2010
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Indeed, if a player led 1 of 4 mostly-amateur Canadian hockey leagues back when Canada had a population of 4 million people, it is clearly equal to having led the NHL in 2007.
And if you continue to disrespect old time hockey, you shall be dealt with via vigilante justice.
- Feb 10, 2010
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No he wasn't. At his peak, Ovie was tilting the ice like crazy. Opposing teams were not scoring on the Caps very much at all with him on the ice.
AvroArrow said:
And now you've gone way off the rails.
Sidney Crosby absolutely is not elite at defense, physicality, or durability. He doesn't PK. He's deployed overwhelmingly for offense. He has NEVER shut down an elite player in a playoff series. He's not a physical force or a hitter.
Crosby's peak level of play is as good or better than any of those.
Full peak regular seasons? That's a bit more hit and miss, since injuries kept him from full seasons in that ~2011-2013 timeframe. I'd still have him ahead of Thornton for sure, as well as everyone in your 2nd group. Definitely ahead of McDavid too - McDavid's best full season is 2017-2018, Crosby has a few better ones. Fully acknowledge that may change in McDavid's favor though in future.
As to the bolded - no it's not ridiculous. Crosby's strength isn't his full peak seasons, but his prime/consistency. His playoff/international pedigree doesn't hurt either. He just broke the record for most consecutive seasons over a ppg (beating Gretzky) with 16. Considering the lower scoring era he plays in, that's commendable and truly staggering in terms of consistency elite play. Howe, Bourque and maybe Gretzky are the only players all-time with arguably a more consistent high end prime than him. That's his calling card imo.
Also - you were talking a few posts up of Harvey, and Lidstrom. Harvey's peak doesn't surpass many of the players he played around the same time as - and Lidstrom is even worst, as he's quite weak for peak. Bourque is in that ballpark too - his peak is nowhere near as high as Lemieux, Hasek, Gretzky, Yzerman, Jagr and I can keep going - he still has a fine argument to be in that vicinity of 5th spot.
Different paths to greatness. Crosby's path excludes the highest of "full peak regular season" - but he still reaches that overall level
To the bolded - absolutely no chance whatsoever.
Mario Lemieux is better. Wayne Gretzky. I also believe both Hull's had higher peak goal-scoring seasons than Ovechkin. For goal-scoring peak, Ovechkin's argument starts at #5. It's not necessarily a definite at#5 either, as a few others are in that vicinity (Bure, Richard, Howe, Bossy, etc).
Alex Ovechkin is absolutely the greatest goal-scorer of all-time in terms of prime/consistency though. That's his calling card. His 65 goals was really good - but he's going to be remembered as highly as he is more for his 7 rockets in 8 years at ages 27+. That's what makes him unique.
Regardless of if you agree you gotta admit it's close either way, Kucherov for example have a higher points total in a season than Crosby and that's a undisputable fact, rest is just opinions really. Also this fabrication of Crosby as some complete player is a pure myth at his offensive peak he was rather one dimensional, might be he is more complete now but then i turn he lacks offensively(compared to the players mentioned at their peaks obviously).
Same thing is true for Yzerman for example, when he was at his best offensive he lacked defensively and conversely as he matured his game he obviously lost some offense, peak is absolute ability at one time not picking and choosing from the same player in different stages of his career.
Karlsson is arguably the best offensive defenceman(I would s since Coffey and also was the best defenceman defensively during a best on best olympics, if you combine those two achievements you have a defenceman that rivals everybody but Orr, does that mean he ever was at that level in reality?
Heck how special can Crosby really be if McDavid is arguably better and before him there was Lemieux who was certainly better and players like Messier at roughly the same level. He never separated himself peak wise from the likes of Forsberg, Malkin, Draisaitl, Fedorov, Sakic, Trottier etc. 5th best of all time, my f***ing ass.
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Future GOAT
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I think even the most die hard Crosby fan would acknowledge that McDavid could surpass him one day. His talent has never been in question. But it'll come down to actual accomplishments.
Lemieux for example was every bit as talented as Gretzky - yet accomplished way less. McDavid still has a ton of ground to cover to match Crosby's career.
Nathaniel Skywalker
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- Oct 18, 2013
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Nathaniel Skywalker
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