Ho-Sang more "electrifying player" than McDavid?

[Apocalypse Dude]

I just want to thank the OP and everyone involved here for giving me some very entertaining Sunday reading . I do hope Ho-Sang makes it to the NHL though.

 

[Rehabguy]

Does the right way include oversleeping, missing day 1 of camp, and getting sent down without actually hitting the ice?

HECK Yeah! HoSang himself said this was the best thing to ever happen to him. He said he knew he had to grow up. Look at the recent twitter photo he posted. It's a blast!

 

[Rehabguy]

I just want to thank the OP and everyone involved here for giving me some very entertaining Sunday reading . I do hope Ho-Sang makes it to the NHL though.

You're welcome

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Remember Robbie Schremp? Or Kiril Kabanov? I think at certain points in their young careers they were also looked upon as electrifying prospects.

 

[Seachd]

And because your GM was dumb enough to waist a first round pick on Schremp that Garth Snow and his scouts would do the same? The same scouts that made otherwise AHL bound players in Parenteau and Moulson into bonafide NHL players or former 1st round picks Michael Grabner into stars while they were on the Island. I trust Snow on this one. I don't think I would trust the Oiler's scouts judgments for the past decade.

That's your reply? You ignore the high-risk-high-reward, late-first-round, super-talented, hyped-through-the-roof similarities, and that's your reply?

It's obvious this thread was created with a pre-existing bias and is nowhere near as innocent as you're trying to make it seem.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Naah.

I started this thread because I wanted to find out if there was any truth to what Steve Simmons wrote in the Toronto Sun back in 2014- that, "Three years ago, on a gifted Marlies GTHL team, the only difference between Ho-Sang and Connor McDavid was — Ho-Sang was the more electric player. You couldn’t take your eyes off him." Since then in this thread I've heard it first hand from a player who grew up with HoSang and McDavid that this statement indeed held true. That HoSang was not only the more electrifying player but that he was indeed the "more talented" player. Like you, I couldn't believe what the Toronto reporters were saying, that there actually existed a player who was possibly superior to McDavid, but I'm not going to argue with this sort of first hand knowledge.

Uh, yeah.

This novel just regurgitates the same nonsense you were spewing earlier, and doesn't address anything I posted. What Ho-Sang did against a 14 year old McDavid playing above his age group means nothing.

Fast forward to their OHL years and a few posters here point to the difference in their OHL stats. The OHL BTW long considered the most advanced of the junior level leagues. Yes, McDavid had higher stats but it was common knowledge that he played with far superior line mates than Ho Sang. Before he was drafted by the Isles here's what the Montreal media had to say on the matter:

"Over his two season OHL career, Ho-Sang has scored 129 points in 130 games as a 16-17 year old player. Before joining the Spitfires, Ho-Sang was a teammate of Connor McDavid and there was little to choose between the two phenoms playing for the Toronto Marlboros of the Minor Midget League in Ontario. McDavid outscored Ho-Sang in the OHL this season, with his 99 points, but the surefire first overall pick in next year’s draft also had the league’s top two scorers, Dane Fox and Connor Brown as linemates. With all due respect to Brady Vail who was a Montreal Canadiens pick in the 2012 draft and played on a line with Ho-Sang this season, he is not on the same level as Brown and Fox. This isn’t to say that Ho-Sang is going to be a better player than McDavid who is a phenom, but it does show the elite level of Ho-Sang’s offensive ability." http://awinninghabit.com/2014/06/26/josh-ho-sang-worth-gamble-montreal-canadiens-26th-nhl-draft/

Right. Before Ho-Sang was drafted, there was an article playing devil's advocate for Ho-Sang's production relative to McDavid's as a 16 year old, when he still lapped him. Since then, Ho-Sang's junior production has totally stagnated and he's been kicked out of Islanders camp for not bothering to show up on time, while McDavid's gone on to not only be named the best player in junior hockey without Brown and Fox, but as an NHL rookie score at a pace reserved for all-time greats.

Nothing about the last few years suggests that they are at remotely similar levels.

There have also been countless articles reporting how HoSang, though the seemingly superior player to McDavid at the time was being treated unfairly by the Canadian hockey establishment:

"We are, by all accounts, talking about a major talent here. When Ho-Sang played with media darling Connor McDavid, they say it was Ho-Sang who stood out. But Hockey Canada, an organization that is on a fairly significant losing streak at the world juniors, didn’t even want to take a look at Ho-Sang?"
http://montrealgazette.com/sports/jack-todd-ho-sang-gets-same-treatment-as-subban-from-hockey-canada

Ho-Sang's treatment by Hockey Canada is totally in line with his effectiveness as a hockey player. He's a one-dimensional forward who's numbers wouldn't justify inclusion even if he didn't have maturity issues...which he clearly does.

If you don't want to believe what the Montreal media had to say about HoSang, listen to McDavid said himself who seemed at awe with HoSang:

"Just to even be compare to Josh Ho- Sang is a honour in itself. He is a tremendous player with some pretty unique skills that I have never seen before. The constant comparison can get tiresome sometimes because at the end of the day we both play the game to have fun." http://ohlprospects.blogspot.com/2012/03/connor-mcdavid.html

Date: March 8, 2012.

I know this kind of information is unsettling to McDavid devotees (even to some HoSang fans) because it upsets in their minds, the world order of how things are supposed to work. People like to put ideas into nice little boxes and wrap em up and place a nice tidy bow around them. HoSang is an enigma to be sure, but he's beyond a doubt a talented enigma who I'm now convinced is a talent who can legitimately be compare to McDavid.

You have considerable trouble with dates and context.

 

[hutter]

Skill, speed and ability can only take you so far.

Vision and work ethic are the ceilings that limit how far athletic talent can take you.

There were and are at least a few players who are faster than McDavid, there were and are many who have better hands and moves. There are lots of players who have a better shot.

Vision allows you to apply it, work ethic makes you give a ****.

Otherwise Mattias Tedenby would be in the NHL, and Joshua Ho-Sang would've been two years ago, and Alexandre Daigle would be an all-time great.

 

[Rehabguy]

That's your reply? You ignore the high-risk-high-reward, late-first-round, super-talented, hyped-through-the-roof similarities, and that's your reply?

It's obvious this thread was created with a pre-existing bias and is nowhere near as innocent as you're trying to make it seem.

[mod]

Like I said, there was not pre-existing bias at all. Read through all my threads and tell me where I was being biased. I've given McDavid more than his just dues. This thread had nothing to do with McDavid other than he was being used as a reference point for HoSang. That's it. But all the emotions and insecurities took over for McDavid fans as though it's some veiled attempt to attack him. It's not.

If there is any entertainment value for this thread it's you guys who are providing it. I'm just facilitating the discussion along. Think before you type!

 

[PsychoDad]

[mod]

Like I said, there was not pre-existing bias at all. Read through all my threads and tell me where I was being biased. I've given McDavid more than his just dues. This thread had nothing to do with McDavid other than he was being used as a reference point for HoSang. That's it. But all the emotions and insecurities took over for McDavid fans as though it's some veiled attempt to attack him. It's not.

If there is any entertainment value for this thread it's you guys who are providing it. I'm just facilitating the discussion along. Think before you type!

[mod] The reality is that this thread will be brought up soon enough when Ho Sang fails to meet your personal expectations (because nobody else here expects much of him). Just be patient and prepare your answers why it didn't go your way.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

[mod]

Like I said, there was not pre-existing bias at all. Read through all my threads and tell me where I was being biased. I've given McDavid more than his just dues. This thread had nothing to do with McDavid other than he was being used as a reference point for HoSang. That's it. But all the emotions and insecurities took over for McDavid fans as though it's some veiled attempt to attack him. It's not.

If there is any entertainment value for this thread it's you guys who are providing it. I'm just facilitating the discussion along. Think before you type!

Pretty sure you'd be one of the first to become all indignant if someone made a thread on here comparing Tavares to some unproven late first round pick who never came close to achieving what Tavares did at the junior level or NHL level.

And that's essentially what this thread is. Whether that was your original intent, or whether it's grown into that over the course of the thread, you're comparing one player who absolutely dominated junior and is now looking very good in the NHL, to someone who never dominated junior and hasn't set foot in the NHL. Of course that's going to cause a lot of vitriol.

 

[Seachd]

[mod]

Like I said, there was not pre-existing bias at all. Read through all my threads and tell me where I was being biased. I've given McDavid more than his just dues. This thread had nothing to do with McDavid other than he was being used as a reference point for HoSang. That's it. But all the emotions and insecurities took over for McDavid fans as though it's some veiled attempt to attack him. It's not.

This is exactly what you're doing. The proof is that you absolutely ignore all on-ice play and resort to slamming the Oilers' drafting, which has nothing to do with this thread.

You haven't had any kind of retort to all the relevant points in this thread. If that shows you're not basing it on bias, what are you doing?

 

[Senor Catface]

Nope. This is them doing it to themselves. If they would stick to the topic everything would be fine.

Let's just all get along folks.

Nope.

It's you.

But do go on about why the guy scoring against future H&M workers is better than the guy scoring more against NHL goalies.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Both of them are HHOF members. Some people would consider Bure a better player than Yzerman. Would you please choose your comparisons better?
McDavid will probably have a Crosby-like career, and Ho-Sang, talking from statistical point, considering his OHL output, will not have much NHL career at all.

Nobody in their right mind would say that Bure > Yzerman who watched them both play. I get why people who only go by stats would say so.

 

[PsychoDad]

Nobody in their right mind would say that Bure > Yzerman who watched them both play. I get why people who only go by stats would say so.

Again, its about the overall level of play and how players quality relates to each other. I don't think you doubt that Ho Sang to McDavid will probably not be Bure to Yzerman.

 

[Le Golie]

You're welcome

Are you Josh Ho-Sang?

 

[mobilus]

"No one can deny the raw talent. As Steve Simmons mentions in that same Toronto Sun article, when you watched the 2011-12 Toronto Marlboros it almost seemed like there was a competition between Ho-Sang and McDavid for which one would make more jaw-dropping plays in the game. As impressive as McDavid was for an underage player, Ho-Sang and current Ottawa 67’s forward Dante Salituro were hands-down the best players in the league that season." http://thehockeywriters.com/josh-ho-sang-still-facing-undeserved-criticism/

https://vine.co/v/OY9LJWmWrBn The kid can skate!

I watched some of those AAA Marlie games live, and Ho-Sang was not better than McDavid. If they had an internal competition going between them, it was driven by Ho-Sang because he didn't like standing in a shadow. McDavid also drew the top tier opponents against him to try and shut him down. Steve Simmons isn't qualified to yell "Bingo!" in a church basement let alone decide which Minor Midget hockey player is better than another.

 

[Spade]

Having watched a lot of Ho-Sang in the OHL, I can say this: he's got some great hands.

Now, I've also seen McDavid, in the OHL and now in the NHL, and I can tell you that the difference between the two off the ice is that McDavid, when he has a weakness, works at it until it's no longer a weakness. He has continued to improve at a consistent pace at everything. He's not just talented in terms of pure puck skills, or playmaking, or skating, but in the mental aspect of hockey. He recognizes plays and he recognizes openings and that is what makes him special, in combination with his relentless work ethic. His skills allow him to take advantage of said gaps and openings, which only get smaller the higher up you go in the hockey world.

Ho-Sang has the puck skills and physical tools similarly to McDavid, but he loses in the recognition stage and he loses in the consistency stage. He doesn't see openings the same way McDavid does, because he can only take advantage of obvious holes while McDavid will often make something happen out of what appears to be nothing basically because of his ability to read the opponents' positioning and his ability to slow the game down mentally. Ho-Sang can take advantage of gaps, but when it appears there's nothing he is stuck at "sick dangle", which only leads to a turnover if done poorly.

When Ho-Sang is good, he's good, but too consistently he makes the play harder than it needs to be. Looks real pretty when it works, but his ability to play off of his teammates is a major weakness even at the OHL level. I don't mean making an awesome deke to set up a wide open tap-in. I mean taking lanes in the neutral or offensive zone that don't, y'know, happen to get in everyone else's way. When he has the puck, the only thing that moves is him, because his teammates can't actually move to where they want or need to go thanks to him carrying the puck into said spots. His understanding of how to create space, not just for himself but for others, is limited strictly to what he can do with his hands, and not what he can do with his feet.

Those aspects of his game are what limit his scoring at the OHL level despite his talent. They haven't improved since his draft year. He is a difficult player to play with because he doesn't have any plan for anyone else besides himself, and it's what will limit his pro potential if he doesn't change because if he can't make use of his teammates, he's worthless.

Ho-Sang isn't electrifying to watch for me despite his obvious skill being what excites me, his overall game is just frustrating to watch because I see him taking a weird route or cherrypicking at the blueline. McDavid electrifies me because not only do I get excited by the skill, but it's very obvious that his understanding of how to effectively play with his linemates and his ability to read the flow of movement make the game look easy for him.

 

[gorangers0525]

I once scored 6 goals in a game when I was 11, maybe I can give McDavid a run for his money.

 

[DonskoiDonscored]

At that time and on these boards Oilers fans were claiming him to be the next one. "The next Doug Weight" or "the best player they drafted since Jari Kurri" they called him.

prove it.

 

[barkovcanfinnish]

There's only one man more electifying than Connor McDavid.

 

[Rehabguy]

Having watched a lot of Ho-Sang in the OHL, I can say this: he's got some great hands.

Now, I've also seen McDavid, in the OHL and now in the NHL, and I can tell you that the difference between the two off the ice is that McDavid, when he has a weakness, works at it until it's no longer a weakness. He has continued to improve at a consistent pace at everything. He's not just talented in terms of pure puck skills, or playmaking, or skating, but in the mental aspect of hockey. He recognizes plays and he recognizes openings and that is what makes him special, in combination with his relentless work ethic. His skills allow him to take advantage of said gaps and openings, which only get smaller the higher up you go in the hockey world.

Ho-Sang has the puck skills and physical tools similarly to McDavid, but he loses in the recognition stage and he loses in the consistency stage. He doesn't see openings the same way McDavid does, because he can only take advantage of obvious holes while McDavid will often make something happen out of what appears to be nothing basically because of his ability to read the opponents' positioning and his ability to slow the game down mentally. Ho-Sang can take advantage of gaps, but when it appears there's nothing he is stuck at "sick dangle", which only leads to a turnover if done poorly.

When Ho-Sang is good, he's good, but too consistently he makes the play harder than it needs to be. Looks real pretty when it works, but his ability to play off of his teammates is a major weakness even at the OHL level. I don't mean making an awesome deke to set up a wide open tap-in. I mean taking lanes in the neutral or offensive zone that don't, y'know, happen to get in everyone else's way. When he has the puck, the only thing that moves is him, because his teammates can't actually move to where they want or need to go thanks to him carrying the puck into said spots. His understanding of how to create space, not just for himself but for others, is limited strictly to what he can do with his hands, and not what he can do with his feet.

Those aspects of his game are what limit his scoring at the OHL level despite his talent. They haven't improved since his draft year. He is a difficult player to play with because he doesn't have any plan for anyone else besides himself, and it's what will limit his pro potential if he doesn't change because if he can't make use of his teammates, he's worthless.

Ho-Sang isn't electrifying to watch for me despite his obvious skill being what excites me, his overall game is just frustrating to watch because I see him taking a weird route or cherrypicking at the blueline. McDavid electrifies me because not only do I get excited by the skill, but it's very obvious that his understanding of how to effectively play with his linemates and his ability to read the flow of movement make the game look easy for him.

Great post. Thank you. Looks like the kids got a lot to work on still.

 

[McVespa99]

I saw a video of an 11 year old Japanese kid stickhandling a ball. He was pretty electrifying. Lets compare him to MacDavid.
Lamest thread ever

 

[Rehabguy]

Pretty sure you'd be one of the first to become all indignant if someone made a thread on here comparing Tavares to some unproven late first round pick who never came close to achieving what Tavares did at the junior level or NHL level.

And that's essentially what this thread is. Whether that was your original intent, or whether it's grown into that over the course of the thread, you're comparing one player who absolutely dominated junior and is now looking very good in the NHL, to someone who never dominated junior and hasn't set foot in the NHL. Of course that's going to cause a lot of vitriol.

Again you're just shooting the messenger.

The premise of the OP was sound. It was a based on fact- that numerous pundits had compared HoSang to McDavid and came away with the impression that he was the more "electrifying" and "stood out more" and accomplished just as much as McDavid in the OHL when you took into the account the quality of his linemates. We've had a poster and his friends here who has actually played alongside McDavid and came away with the same conclusion going as far as to say that at a younger age HoSang was actually more talented. The Montreal and Toronto media prior to the draft referred to HoSang as an undeniable major talent. A few posters have compared HoSang to Oiler's first round pick Robbie Schremp as if that had any relevance or basis. Are we to assume that anyone who shows any modicum of talent "the next Robbie Schremp"? He clearly passes the eye test showing speed, agility, puck handling skills that equal McDavid. We see the quality of his NHL shot that McDavid lacks. Fans of McDavid are confirming that HoSang's hands are off the charts. McDavid himself said that it was an honor to be compared to HoSang and that he's used to the constant comparison even if it may be tiresome.

In other words. I didn't make this stuff up. It's real. It's apparently legit as far as I can tell from the responses in thread. I'm just excited to see what he can do once he's playing alongside some real linemates. Is that so bad?

 

[DonskoiDonscored]

Again you're just shooting the messenger.

The premise of the OP was sound. It was a based on fact- that numerous pundits had compared HoSang to McDavid and came away with the impression that he was the more "electrifying" and "stood out more" and accomplished just as much as McDavid in the OHL when you took into the account the quality of his linemates.

What pundits said this (based on their play in the OHL)?

In other words. I didn't make this stuff up. It's real. It's apparently legit as far as I can tell from the responses in thread. I'm just excited to see what he can do once he's playing alongside some real linemates. Is that so bad?

You are making stuff up, that's the problem. Name two+ credible sources that have said that Ho-Sang and McDavid have accomplished the same in the OHL.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Again you're just shooting the messenger.

The premise of the OP was sound. It was a based on fact- that numerous pundits had compared HoSang to McDavid and came away with the impression that he was the more "electrifying" and "stood out more" and accomplished just as much as McDavid in the OHL when you took into the account the quality of his linemates. We've had a poster and his friends here who has actually played alongside McDavid and came away with the same conclusion going as far as to say that at a younger age HoSang was actually more talented. The Montreal and Toronto media prior to the draft referred to HoSang as an undeniable major talent. A few posters have compared HoSang to Oiler's first round pick Robbie Schremp as if that had any relevance or basis. Are we to assume that anyone who shows any modicum of talent "the next Robbie Schremp"? He clearly passes the eye test showing speed, agility, puck handling skills that equal McDavid. We see the quality of his NHL shot that McDavid lacks. Fans of McDavid are confirming that HoSang's hands are off the charts.

In other words. I didn't make this stuff up. It's real. It's apparently legit as far as I can tell from the responses in thread. I'm just excited to see what he can do once he's playing alongside some real linemates. Is that so bad?

No, you did make that stuff up, and it's not real.

The quote you're using came from some guy writing for Fansided, who's not any kind of pundit or even an accredited member of the media. He's essentially a fan with a blog:

"Over his two season OHL career, Ho-Sang has scored 129 points in 130 games as a 16-17 year old player. Before joining the Spitfires, Ho-Sang was a teammate of Connor McDavid and there was little to choose between the two phenoms playing for the Toronto Marlboros of the Minor Midget League in Ontario. McDavid outscored Ho-Sang in the OHL this season, with his 99 points, but the surefire first overall pick in next year’s draft also had the league’s top two scorers, Dane Fox and Connor Brown as linemates. With all due respect to Brady Vail who was a Montreal Canadiens pick in the 2012 draft and played on a line with Ho-Sang this season, he is not on the same level as Brown and Fox. This isn’t to say that Ho-Sang is going to be a better player than McDavid who is a phenom, but it does show the elite level of Ho-Sang’s offensive ability."

http://awinninghabit.com/2014/06/26/...6th-nhl-draft/

And even then, this complete non-source's opinion was only referring to McDavid's rookie OHL season, after which he completely torched Ho-Sang in the league.

McDavid himself said that it was an honor to be compared to HoSang and that he's used to the constant comparison even if it may be tiresome.

Stated in 2012, when McDavid was 15. Way to omit basic, relevant facts.

You cherry pick quotes and perspectives - usually from dubious sources - without context and then mishmash everything together into a conglomeration of half-baked propaganda.