HHOF 2020 (Predictions Here)

[seventieslord]

well thank goodness overpass beat me to this thread.

These last two years, the Oilers were outscored 145 to 89 when Lowe was on the ice.

For five seasons in a row, from '90 to '94, each team Lowe played on (incl. two Cup winners) were outscored when he was on the ice.

This post had 10 likes. What it never had was 10 people looking at these figures and saying to themselves, "wait, Kevin Lowe was a -56 over two seasons with the playoff-bound Oilers? I gotta go check this out... (5 seconds later)... hey, waittaminute..."

Yes, Kevin Lowe, who was not used on the powerplay over those two seasons (2 PPGF), and killed a lot of penalties (55 PPGA), was on the ice for 56 more goals against than goals for. Wow, really, you don't say!!!

Panther, who has me blocked for repeatedly calling him out for his repeated "creative" (useless) use of the GF/GA statistics, will never see this, unless someone quotes me. What's interesting is there are only two people in this section who ever use the raw +/- numbers this way, and they're both people with a clear interest in insulating Wayne Gretzky from the notion that any other player could possibly be even close to as good as him.

 

[Jericho111091]

Lowe was a great player who had a great career, but I never really thought of him as "Kevin Lowe, Hall of Famer"

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

vadim said that as of the late 90s he'd have said Lowe was a hall of famer. Even though I disagree with the induction, I have to go with vadim and at least admit that it didn't completely come out of right field. From 2000-2010 when places like THN or TSN would bring up a list of players who might make it the next time, Lowe's name was usually there - near the bottom, but it was there. You always had the sense he was a longshot guy that was still nonetheless on the radar.

i think you know this but just to be precise, i said that as of the late 90s i'd have predicted THEY would induct him. i personally never thought he SHOULD get in.

i just feel like especially back then, lowe had this rep as the seventh guy on that team. when you rattled off the dynasty oilers, you said gretzky, kurri, messier, anderson, coffey, lowe, fuhr. he was always grouped with them, not as a supporting guy to them, like tikkanen, huddy, gregg, and everyone else was. and i think especially for casual fans, you hear that enough and it's received wisdom. kevin lowe, oilers, hall of famer.

upthread someone suggested that the HHOF vendetta against barrasso is holding up lesser goalies getting in. in the same way, i felt like them making anderson wait so long made lowe miss his natural window because how do you induct lowe before anderson? otherwise, i think he probably gets in with the 2002 or 2003 class. those were lean years where 80s b-listers snuck in.

 

[NyQuil]

What's interesting is there are only two people in this section who ever use the raw +/- numbers this way, and they're both people with a clear interest in insulating Wayne Gretzky from the notion that any other player could possibly be even close to as good as him.

Well I don't think Kevin Lowe is that player.

 

[seventieslord]

Well I don't think Kevin Lowe is that player.

... Did you mean to quote someone else?

 

[NyQuil]

... Did you mean to quote someone else?

I guess I'm trying to figure out how dumping on Kevin Lowe pumps up Wayne Gretzky.

It'd be like saying that making Bill Wennington look bad helps with Michael Jordan's legacy.

 

[Hynh]

Well I don't think Kevin Lowe is that player.

If he was allowed to be GM of the Oilers for a couple more years he might make enough friends to get in that conversation.

 

[seventieslord]

I guess I'm trying to figure out how dumping on Kevin Lowe pumps up Wayne Gretzky.

It'd be like saying that making Bill Wennington look bad helps with Michael Jordan's legacy.

No, I'm saying that this tactic of using gf and GA totals in strange and useless ways is something only two people here do, and they have both repeatedly done it to pump up Gretzky.

 

[NyQuil]

No, I'm saying that this tactic of using gf and GA totals in strange and useless ways is something only two people here do, and they have both repeatedly done it to pump up Gretzky.

Ah, ok.

 

[voyageur]

I can understand why defensemen like Lowe and Wilson got in. Lowe especially, with a handful of rings, that he earned. Wilson for his work with the Sharks, after a good career with the Hawks.

But I still think Fleury belongs there. He's a point per game career player, with a point per game playoff production. He won the Cup his rookie year, and won gold in 2002 as a key member and leading scorer of the HHOF laden team.
He definitely deserved to get in before Phil Housley, but I think his substance abuse and off ice troubles have made him more contentious, which is unfortunate. But again Housley, his teammate on the party team in Chicago, stayed in hockey after his career, which seems to get preference, by the media.

Theo Fleury was the goal scorer on Jarome Iginla's 1st ever NHL point, in the 1996 playoffs, ironically. Probably should have got the call from his old teammate Cup winning teammate Lanny Mc Donald, but there's some prejudice in the process. Mogilny, Alfredsson, Sedins, Zetterberg should get in after Theo.

 

[MXD]

No offence, but why? The women play like what 50 meaningful games at most in their entire careers. I don't see any of them really as earning to be in the Hockey Hall of Fame, especially when there are lots of way more deserving guys like Theo Fleury who can't get in at all.

St Pierre didnt block Fleury.

 

[Melrose Munch]

No offence, but why? The women play like what 50 meaningful games at most in their entire careers. I don't see any of them really as earning to be in the Hockey Hall of Fame, especially when there are lots of way more deserving guys like Theo Fleury who can't get in at all.

Of the things she could control, St. Pierre did as much as anyone. She's now the only female goaltender in the HHOF, for what it's worth (your "Not female goalies apparently!" response has a misplaced plural).

She belongs.

St Pierre didnt block Fleury.

I believe St.Pierre is on a separate ballot or category. Lowe and Housley blocked Fleury, but they are punishing him for his personal life imo.

 

[MXD]

Right. Making a case for those players would be a mere repetition of common knowledge and you have to go down pretty far to find names anyone could make any case against. Spending weeks and months to induce the top 50-80 seems like a colossal waste of time.

Such case can easily and readily be made for Sidney Crosby

...
More seriously, from the Top-100 list... I'm ready to admit there could possibly be case that Elmer Lach isn't an obvious inductee. Not that he shouldn't make it.

 

[Peter Tosh]

It seems like they are on a campaign to raise the role players. Carbonneau last year, Lowe now. Kris Draper 2021?

 

[Passchendaele]

Such case can easily and readily be made for Sidney Crosby

...
More seriously, from the Top-100 list... I'm ready to admit there could possibly be case that Elmer Lach isn't an obvious inductee. Not that he shouldn't make it.

Lach retired as the all-time leader in points.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Interesting cases are players like Jacques Lemaire, Claude Provost, etc. There are about 170 players that are locks and not worth wasting time over. Would you want to discuss whether Mike Modano should get in? Seems like a waste of time, yet he's not even in the Top 100 as generally thought.

 

[MS]

Such case can easily and readily be made for Sidney Crosby

...
More seriously, from the Top-100 list... I'm ready to admit there could possibly be case that Elmer Lach isn't an obvious inductee. Not that he shouldn't make it.

2x Art Ross, an MVP, 5x postseason All-Star, all-time NHL leading scorer at the time of retirement, and 3 Cups including a retro-Smythe where he scored 17 points in 9 playoff games isn't an obvious HHOFer?!?

 

[MXD]

2x Art Ross, an MVP, 5x postseason All-Star, all-time NHL leading scorer at the time of retirement, and 3 Cups including a retro-Smythe where he scored 17 points in 9 playoff games isn't an obvious HHOFer?!?

To me, he's a very, very obvious HHoF. But there can probably be a case that can be made. I'd read it. I'll almost certainly discard it, but I'd read it. As opposed to, I don't know, a case that Steve Yzerman isn't, which I wouldn't even bother reading.

 

[BenchBrawl]

To me, he's a very, very obvious HHoF. But there can probably be a case that can be made. I'd read it. I'll almost certainly discard it, but I'd read it. As opposed to, I don't know, a case that Steve Yzerman isn't, which I wouldn't even bother reading.

Huh? A case against Crosby? There is no case. At all. In order to pass, the case would need to destroy the selection-function (by twisting the criterias as to be unrecognizable and irrelevant), making the whole thing pointless.

 

[Oddbob]

Of the things she could control, St. Pierre did as much as anyone. She's now the only female goaltender in the HHOF, for what it's worth (your "Not female goalies apparently!" response has a misplaced plural).

She belongs.

She belongs in over goalies with over 350+ wins in the NHL, not bloody likely!

 

[Theokritos]

She belongs in over goalies with over 350+ wins in the NHL, not bloody likely!

They're not competing with each other for the HHOF. Male players get (up to) four spots each year and female players (up to) two spots each year.

 

[Oddbob]

St Pierre didnt block Fleury.

Never said she did! I was getting at, Fleury can't buy his way in to the HOF, yet a goalie with only meaningful games against Team USA and not that many to boot gets in virtually right away! How about Cujo or Ozzie, they did much much more and likely never see the HOF? She like all females thus far are getting in just because they are female and not because they were HOF material, whether people want to admit that or not.

 

[Oddbob]

They're not competing with each other for the HHOF. Male players get (up to) four spots each year and female players (up to) two spots each year.

Not the point.

 

[Doctor No]

She belongs in over goalies with over 350+ wins in the NHL, not bloody likely!

You're deliberately missing the point.

Feel free to ignore her. I don't think anyone's going to care if you do or do not.

 

[MS]

To me, he's a very, very obvious HHoF. But there can probably be a case that can be made. I'd read it. I'll almost certainly discard it, but I'd read it. As opposed to, I don't know, a case that Steve Yzerman isn't, which I wouldn't even bother reading.

Ehhhh ... I get what you're saying, and I think someone could make a non-embarrassing case for, say, Norm Ullman to not be in the HHOF that would then be discarded ... but Elmer Lach is about as much of a dead lock as you can possibly get.