HHOF 2020 (Predictions Here)
- Thread starter BlueBull
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vadim sharifijanov
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- Oct 10, 2007
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Four players, because Daniel and Henrik will clearly go in together.
Alfredsson will get in. The only player to score 1000 points with one team and not get in is Dave Taylor ... who I'm sure will also get vacuumed up soon in his 23rd year of eligibility or whatever.
vadim sharifijanov
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- Oct 10, 2007
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NyQuil
Big F$&*in Q
reckoning
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- Jan 4, 2005
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Kevin Lowe geting in isn't comparable to the Clark Gillies selection. The Oilers "Clark Gillies induction" was Glenn Anderson. Kevin Lowe would be closer to Bob Nystrom or Ken Morrow getting in.
Hockey Outsider
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- Jan 16, 2005
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Well said. I've seen a lot of this with Cam Neely. 15 years ago people kept on talking about what a special player he was, how incredible his 1994 season was, how he was such a good playoff performer (who always seemed to have Roy's number), etc. Now he's mostly brought up as an example of someone who watered down the HOF.
For the record, I wouldn't have voted for Neely either. And the "watering down" argument is less impactful now that we've seen Duff, Ciccarelli, Andreychuk, Carbonneau, etc. But I wonder if a marginal player getting inducted to the HOF actually hurts their legacy by creating backlash.
(I guess the counter-argument is that this problem goes away with time. Kevin Lowe will forever have his spot, and nobody except hockey historians will really stop to question if he's worthwhile. I certainly never thought about whether, say, Leo Boivin or Edgar Laprade - two other equally weak selections from a couple of generations ago - really deserved a spot in the Hall until I was already hooked on hockey history).
MXD
Original #4
- Oct 27, 2005
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Honestly, which would've been worse as a selection (and disregard the huge age gap) : Kevin Lowe or Jean Guy Talbot?
There's a good case to say Seabrook is a stronger case than Lowe for making the Hall.
Not that I'd agree with either, but here we are.
GMR
Registered User
I don't remember Zetterberg accomplishing any of those things actually.
He probably gets in, but never won an MVP or scoring title, and made only one All-NHL team (2nd team).
Oddbob
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- Jan 21, 2016
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No offence, but why? The women play like what 50 meaningful games at most in their entire careers. I don't see any of them really as earning to be in the Hockey Hall of Fame, especially when there are lots of way more deserving guys like Theo Fleury who can't get in at all.
NyQuil
Big F$&*in Q
Oddbob
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- Jan 21, 2016
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I don't think Zetterberg is a for sure in the HOF. Biased I like it, but not sure he has good enough stats and credentials to get in.
Syckle78
Registered User
It's perplexing that they will put in all these questionable forwards and defensemen but goalies are held to elite standards.
GMR
Registered User
He was arguably the best playoff performer in the league during his prime and a tremendous two-way player. Doesn't have 1980's like scoring numbers but that won't be required for future generations. He doesn't have Datsyuk's high scoring finishes and Selke trophies, but many people think he was a better player. He was certainly a more clutch player than Datsyuk. Gold Medal as well in 2006. He will probably make it. Unlike a Kevin Lowe, he was one of the best players at his position for many years.
Oddbob
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- Jan 21, 2016
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The Panther
Registered User
For f***'s sakes...!! I didn't think this would be an actual thing. I just checked online to confirm -- and Kevin Lowe is now a Hall of Famer!! (I checked it's not April Fools' Day.)
What the f***???!!!
I had already given up on the Hall of Fame for the past three or four years, but now it has crapped its own bed to such an extent that it's a total embarrassment. I feel bad for legit Hall of Famers like Jarome Iginla who have to suffer the indignity of being inducted with no-name players.
Let's take a moment to consider that Kevin Lowe is now a Hall of Famer... and, for the second (third?) year in a row, Daniel Alfredsson isn't.
How is that even possible in a rational world?
The only conclusion is that the current HOF committee is either collectively smoking crack, or it is indeed a ridiculous old-boys' club where every ex-teammate, committee colleague, ex-roommate, golf buddy is going to be inducted. Perhaps next the water-boys from the Isles and Oilers' dynasties will be inducted.
I can't even express how pathetic this is. I had often joked over the past couple of years how hilarious it would be if someone like Kevin Lowe was inducted into the Hall. I said it as a joke, under the assumption that it could never happen.
Understand that I am a lifelong Oilers' fan, and Kevin Lowe was one of the first players I was aware of, recognized, and liked when I was about 7 years old. I grew up with the guy, if you will. Watched him practicing at West Edmonton Mall. I saw him adapt to the post-Gretzky Oilers, and leave town to go to New York. I listened to his live Edmonton radio farewell to Oilers' fans on the night he left the city to fly to New York in December 1992.
THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL HE WAS A HALL OF FAMER.
Here's how I would characterize his playing career:
1979-80 & 1980-81
-- Young D-man finding his way (not that young, btw -- he was already 20 when his rookie season started, unlike other young Oilers)
1981-82 to 1986-87 (six seasons)
-- This is the peak of his career, easily. In this period, he was clearly in the upper half of defensive D-men around the NHL. His defensive play was extremely basic (basically, hang around the front of the net and attempt blocking shots whenever possible), and he even contributed a bit offensively, scoring 40+ points three seasons in a row (mind you, 40 points on the Oilers then would be like 25 on a normal team). Other than the tendency to flop onto the ice too much, he made generally intelligent plays, was well positioned, and was gritty and clearly a team leader. His play might have peaked around the 1984 season and playoffs. He played for Team Canada at the '84 Canada Cup (where Glen Sather was coach). In 1986-87, he was paired with Craig Muni (a Leafs' cast-off) and they were the top plus/minus pair on the Oilers.
So, he had six above-average seasons in the NHL. None were very exceptional, but at least he was consistent and above-average.
1987-88 to 1989-90
The Oilers were slowing down as a powerhouse, and adapting to post-Coffey/Gretzky life. Lowe was still good at times, but he was starting to appear very slow (some fans called him 'Kevin Slow') as the League was clearly out-pacing him by this point (he was a poor skater). I've rarely seen a player more sluggish in skating back to pick up pucks that were shot deep. His lack of speed, occasionally arrogant attitude on ice, and thoroughly predictable defensive strategy (flop in front of shots, basically, which every D-man figured out immediately) began to appear as weaknesses on the team.
1990-91 to 1991-92
These last two years in Edmonton, he was clearly the worst defenseman on the team (well, along with Geoff Smith in '92). These last two years, the Oilers were outscored 145 to 89 when Lowe was on the ice.
NY Rangers
Of course I didn't see him play as much in this period. I'll point out that the Rangers went 16-26-7 after he arrived, and missed the playoffs (after being 1st overall the year prior). On the 1994 regular season team, of the six regular defensemen, Lowe had the worst plus/minus (he did, however, outscore Jay Wells, so there's that). For five seasons in a row, from '90 to '94, each team Lowe played on (incl. two Cup winners) were outscored when he was on the ice.
1996-98 return to Edmonton
He was clearly completely washed-up at this point, and he just played to cover for injured players.
So there you have it. Kevin Lowe had six above-average seasons as an NHL player, and he was a valued member (less so, player) on a great NHL dynasty. On three Cup-winning teams he played for ('85 Oilers, '90 Oilers, and '94 Rangers), his clubs were a net minus when he was on the ice. Now, of course, he was charged as a shut-down guy, so he wasn't going to be on for as many goals for as, say, Charlie Huddy (partnered with Coffey), but these were not low-scoring teams. They were dominant teams at offence, and he was charged with defense.
Good grief, this is awful... Hall of Fame, bye-bye. I'll certainly never pay money to enter that institution again.
What the f***???!!!
I had already given up on the Hall of Fame for the past three or four years, but now it has crapped its own bed to such an extent that it's a total embarrassment. I feel bad for legit Hall of Famers like Jarome Iginla who have to suffer the indignity of being inducted with no-name players.
Let's take a moment to consider that Kevin Lowe is now a Hall of Famer... and, for the second (third?) year in a row, Daniel Alfredsson isn't.
How is that even possible in a rational world?
The only conclusion is that the current HOF committee is either collectively smoking crack, or it is indeed a ridiculous old-boys' club where every ex-teammate, committee colleague, ex-roommate, golf buddy is going to be inducted. Perhaps next the water-boys from the Isles and Oilers' dynasties will be inducted.
I can't even express how pathetic this is. I had often joked over the past couple of years how hilarious it would be if someone like Kevin Lowe was inducted into the Hall. I said it as a joke, under the assumption that it could never happen.
Understand that I am a lifelong Oilers' fan, and Kevin Lowe was one of the first players I was aware of, recognized, and liked when I was about 7 years old. I grew up with the guy, if you will. Watched him practicing at West Edmonton Mall. I saw him adapt to the post-Gretzky Oilers, and leave town to go to New York. I listened to his live Edmonton radio farewell to Oilers' fans on the night he left the city to fly to New York in December 1992.
THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL HE WAS A HALL OF FAMER.
Here's how I would characterize his playing career:
1979-80 & 1980-81
-- Young D-man finding his way (not that young, btw -- he was already 20 when his rookie season started, unlike other young Oilers)
1981-82 to 1986-87 (six seasons)
-- This is the peak of his career, easily. In this period, he was clearly in the upper half of defensive D-men around the NHL. His defensive play was extremely basic (basically, hang around the front of the net and attempt blocking shots whenever possible), and he even contributed a bit offensively, scoring 40+ points three seasons in a row (mind you, 40 points on the Oilers then would be like 25 on a normal team). Other than the tendency to flop onto the ice too much, he made generally intelligent plays, was well positioned, and was gritty and clearly a team leader. His play might have peaked around the 1984 season and playoffs. He played for Team Canada at the '84 Canada Cup (where Glen Sather was coach). In 1986-87, he was paired with Craig Muni (a Leafs' cast-off) and they were the top plus/minus pair on the Oilers.
So, he had six above-average seasons in the NHL. None were very exceptional, but at least he was consistent and above-average.
1987-88 to 1989-90
The Oilers were slowing down as a powerhouse, and adapting to post-Coffey/Gretzky life. Lowe was still good at times, but he was starting to appear very slow (some fans called him 'Kevin Slow') as the League was clearly out-pacing him by this point (he was a poor skater). I've rarely seen a player more sluggish in skating back to pick up pucks that were shot deep. His lack of speed, occasionally arrogant attitude on ice, and thoroughly predictable defensive strategy (flop in front of shots, basically, which every D-man figured out immediately) began to appear as weaknesses on the team.
1990-91 to 1991-92
These last two years in Edmonton, he was clearly the worst defenseman on the team (well, along with Geoff Smith in '92). These last two years, the Oilers were outscored 145 to 89 when Lowe was on the ice.
NY Rangers
Of course I didn't see him play as much in this period. I'll point out that the Rangers went 16-26-7 after he arrived, and missed the playoffs (after being 1st overall the year prior). On the 1994 regular season team, of the six regular defensemen, Lowe had the worst plus/minus (he did, however, outscore Jay Wells, so there's that). For five seasons in a row, from '90 to '94, each team Lowe played on (incl. two Cup winners) were outscored when he was on the ice.
1996-98 return to Edmonton
He was clearly completely washed-up at this point, and he just played to cover for injured players.
So there you have it. Kevin Lowe had six above-average seasons as an NHL player, and he was a valued member (less so, player) on a great NHL dynasty. On three Cup-winning teams he played for ('85 Oilers, '90 Oilers, and '94 Rangers), his clubs were a net minus when he was on the ice. Now, of course, he was charged as a shut-down guy, so he wasn't going to be on for as many goals for as, say, Charlie Huddy (partnered with Coffey), but these were not low-scoring teams. They were dominant teams at offence, and he was charged with defense.
Good grief, this is awful... Hall of Fame, bye-bye. I'll certainly never pay money to enter that institution again.
trentmccleary
Registered User
It sucks that these fools regularly Cup count, Trophy count and use raw data to make some poor decisions. But when they advance politically motivated selections like this... it just feels like a punch in the gut.
IMO, Barrasso is causing a blockage. They don't want to induct him, but which goalies do they induct over a guy with 5 Vezina noms, a win, other trophies and two cups?
IMO, Barrasso is causing a blockage. They don't want to induct him, but which goalies do they induct over a guy with 5 Vezina noms, a win, other trophies and two cups?
K Fleur
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- Mar 28, 2014
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Looking forward to seeing Brian Dumoulin inducted in 2053
Kyle McMahon
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- May 10, 2006
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It feels as though they will eventually induct every player from the 1980-1994 era that had a career of any historical note. Kevin Lowe feels like he's a tier below Guy Carbonneau even. Didn't take the selection committee long to one-up that mistake. I'd argue that Dick Duff now has a strong fellow competitor for the dubious honour of being the weakest selection of the 21st century.
If the Oilers had won the Cup in 2006, maaaaaybe you could give him extra credit for being the first GM to win a Cup in the cap era. Not that it would be enough to justify a Hall of Fame induction, but it would be something. As it stands, his career as a manager is remembered largely as a failure, with him overseeing Edmonton's slow descent to an NHL laughingstock.
While it is true that Lowe did have his name thrown out there now and again as a potential candidate, every single argument for it tended to be from establishment Canadian media who cited 6 Cup rings and quite literally nothing else.
Brent Seabrook, Brian Rafalski, Adam Foote, Derian Hatcher...it's hard to argue against any of these players being inducted at this point. I would argue they were all more impactful on at least one of their Cup winning teams than Lowe ever was, possibly multiple times for Seabrook and Rafalski.
I haven't strayed over to the Oilers board yet to see the reaction. I'd imagine it's mixed. Lowe is reviled by the under-35 portion of the fan base.
If the Oilers had won the Cup in 2006, maaaaaybe you could give him extra credit for being the first GM to win a Cup in the cap era. Not that it would be enough to justify a Hall of Fame induction, but it would be something. As it stands, his career as a manager is remembered largely as a failure, with him overseeing Edmonton's slow descent to an NHL laughingstock.
While it is true that Lowe did have his name thrown out there now and again as a potential candidate, every single argument for it tended to be from establishment Canadian media who cited 6 Cup rings and quite literally nothing else.
Brent Seabrook, Brian Rafalski, Adam Foote, Derian Hatcher...it's hard to argue against any of these players being inducted at this point. I would argue they were all more impactful on at least one of their Cup winning teams than Lowe ever was, possibly multiple times for Seabrook and Rafalski.
I haven't strayed over to the Oilers board yet to see the reaction. I'd imagine it's mixed. Lowe is reviled by the under-35 portion of the fan base.
Hockeyholic
Registered User
Glenn Anderson was a better hockey player than Gillies. It's not close either. Glenn deserves to be in. His regular season totals weren't bad enough that they could outweigh his playoff greatness.
With Kevin Lowe in, Letang has to be a shoe in. Correct? Heck, Seabrook has a chance now too.
Doctor No
Registered User
Of the things she could control, St. Pierre did as much as anyone. She's now the only female goaltender in the HHOF, for what it's worth (your "Not female goalies apparently!" response has a misplaced plural).
She belongs.
Laphroaig
Registered User
All four of those guys are far more HHOF worthy than Kevin Lowe. It's not even close.
overpass
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- Jun 7, 2007
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I’m not going to say Kevin Lowe should be in the hall of fame, and I understand the frustration with the Old Boys Club aspect of his induction. I agree he probably wasn’t as good as Brad McCrimmon or Mike Ramsey. But come on, this is a bit much. Kevin Lowe was a very good player who had a very good career. There’s no need to make him less than he was.
Lowe was viewed as a top defensive defenceman in the league at this point in his career. Check the Intangibles thread below for the coaches polls and player polls.
The Hockey News Yearbook in 1988-89 polled forwards around the league for the top defensive defenceman. The most frequent responses were Raymond Bourque, Scott Stevens, Mike Ramsey, and Kevin Lowe.
In a players poll from 1989-90, 14 of 123 players named Lowe as the best defensive defenceman, behind only Brad McCrimmon and Mike Ramsey.
Player Intangibles - resource
Oh no. You’re not looking only at total on-ice goals for and against, are you? You know that Kevin Lowe killed penalties and rarely played the power play at this point in his career, so you would expect him to be on the ice for more goals against than for?
Lowe was viewed as a top defensive defenceman in the league at this point in his career. Check the Intangibles thread below for the coaches polls and player polls.
The Hockey News Yearbook in 1988-89 polled forwards around the league for the top defensive defenceman. The most frequent responses were Raymond Bourque, Scott Stevens, Mike Ramsey, and Kevin Lowe.
In a players poll from 1989-90, 14 of 123 players named Lowe as the best defensive defenceman, behind only Brad McCrimmon and Mike Ramsey.
Player Intangibles - resource
Oh no. You’re not looking only at total on-ice goals for and against, are you? You know that Kevin Lowe killed penalties and rarely played the power play at this point in his career, so you would expect him to be on the ice for more goals against than for?
