Hextall's Moves

[JojoTheWhale]

Why? They have 15-20 million in cap space. Each guy I listed wouldn't cost a ton and can be probably be had on 1-3 year deals. The goalie move is a simple swap out of Neuvirth essentially in terms of salary and roster spot. Lastly, they have several spots that could use an upgrade.

In 2007 Holmgren added three HUGE free agents (Briere, Timonen, Hartnell), traded for Joffrey Lupul and Jason Smith, and re-signed Marty Biron who he traded for at the deadline. The above type of moves I outlined are nowhere near the type of huge turnover in terms the quantity and quality of pieces as that. So again, it's about finding a balance between Holmgren's wheeling and dealing ways and Hextall's risk averse patient to a fault strategy.

Roster spots. None of the signings are unreasonable at all regardless of whether I would personally pursue them. All of them together is unlikely. You also have to find 4 circumstances where you’re willing to outbid the entire league.

You generally only get huge amounts of exterior churn like that in extreme cases, which the 06-07 Flyers would certainly fall under.

 

[46zone]

So I guess we'll just continue ignoring the Schenn trade because it kills the meme.

No risks at all. OK, got it.

I'm not ignoring it, I just don't think it counters my (and others) point of view. Trading Schenn was not a risky move. Many GM's would move a middle six forward for two 1st round picks, especially one who had not shown the ability to play center effectively up to that point.

A risky trade is the Richards trade, the Carter trade, the Pronger trade, Brind'Amour for Primeau, etc. Trading a 2nd line winger for two 1st rounders is not that.

 

[Striiker]

I'm not ignoring it, I just don't think it counters my (and others) point of view. Trading Schenn was not a risky move. Many GM's would move a middle six forward for two 1st round picks, especially one who had not shown the ability to play center effectively up to that point.

A risky trade is the Richards trade, the Carter trade, the Pronger trade, Brind'Amour for Primeau, etc. Trading a 2nd line winger for two 1st rounders is not that.

There's no argument that can be made to say trading a proven 20+ goal 50+ point player for two complete unknowns isn't a risky move...

It is.

 

[The Madrigal]

Roster spots. None of the signings are unreasonable at all regardless of whether I would personally pursue them. All of them together is unlikely. You also have to find 4 circumstances where you’re willing to outbid the entire league.

You generally only get huge amounts of exterior churn like that in extreme cases, which the 06-07 Flyers would certainly fall under.

So roster spots is your biggest reason for not adding four players?

Giroux - Couturier - Konecny
Grabner - Patrick - Voracek
Lindholm - Bozak - Simmonds
Raffl - Laughton - Weise
Weal, Lehtera

Provorov - Ghost
Sanheim - Gudas
Macdonald - Pateryn
Hagg

Bernier / Hutton
Elliott

If it's the free agency aspect that are young hung up on they can trade for a player and sign three guys, or something like that. As I said above, the list of moves I laid out was just an example of the type of moves (at the very least) that I think Hextall should make based on the 15-20 million in cap space they have and holes that they should be looking to fill. All of those guys could be had on short term deals without breaking the bank which would have no effect what so ever on blocking prospects which Hextall has shown time and time again he prefers to be cautious with and bring along slowly.

 

[Garbage Goal]

The easy way to solve this argument is just wait and see what they all sign for in free agency. I actually really like the roster Madrigal posted above (Pateryn aside maybe). If the players we're interested in sign pricey contracts then, obviously, he would have been outbid anyways. The inverse is true too.

I will be pissed if Hextall doesn't at least try to get a 3C and patch up the goaltending via free agency/trade though. We'll see.

 

[Garbage Goal]

There's no argument that can be made to say trading a proven 20+ goal 50+ point player for two complete unknowns isn't a risky move...

It is.

I'd say it's ballsy. From the perspective of asset management at least. Either way, just arguing semantics really. Depends on how you look at the trade.

I'd definitely say the cajones/risk taking shown in the Schenn trade isn't representative of how Hextall typically does things though. A guy like Homer it would have been perfectly representative of if we were the ones giving up the picks (and then some maybe) for the player.

 

[46zone]

There's no argument that can be made to say trading a proven 20+ goal 50+ point player for two complete unknowns isn't a risky move...

It is.

You have a broader definition of risk than I do then. Simmonds puts up similar numbers annually and people don't seem to think it's a risk to move him (and they're right). Trading a 2nd line winger for two 1st round picks does not qualify as a risky move to me. Schenn in particular. He had no future at center for the Flyers and he was deemed as expendable. "Good" players are traded for picks every year, are they all risky moves? By that token, Toronto made a risky move by trading Versteeg to us for a 1st and a 3rd rounder.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

So roster spots is your biggest reason for not adding four players?

Giroux - Couturier - Konecny
Grabner - Patrick - Voracek
Lindholm - Bozak - Simmonds
Raffl - Laughton - Weise
Weal, Lehtera

Provorov - Ghost
Sanheim - Gudas
Macdonald - Pateryn
Hagg

Bernier / Hutton
Elliott

If it's the free agency aspect that are young hung up on they can trade for a player and sign three guys, or something like that. As I said above, the list of moves I laid out was just an example of the type of moves (at the very least) that I think Hextall should make based on the 15-20 million in cap space they have and holes that they should be looking to fill. All of those guys could be had on short term deals without breaking the bank which would have no effect what so ever on blocking prospects which Hextall has shown time and time again he prefers to be cautious with and bring along slowly.

I suspect we’re just not going to agree no matter how much back and forth there is, which is fine. It’s nice to avoid the name calling and all of that and just disagree reasonably.

I would not go into the year with 23 players they refuse to send down before accounting for a single promotion. I also don’t think they want Laughton in the middle, but that’s neither my point nor yours.

 

[46zone]

So roster spots is your biggest reason for not adding four players?

Giroux - Couturier - Konecny
Grabner - Patrick - Voracek
Lindholm - Bozak - Simmonds
Raffl - Laughton - Weise
Weal, Lehtera

We can do better than adding Grabner. Bozak I'm "meh" on. Hopefully Hextall can work the phones and add an impact player (ROR, Trouba, etc.).

 

[Striiker]

I'd say it's ballsy. From the perspective of asset management at least. Either way, just arguing semantics really. Depends on how you look at the trade.

I'd definitely say the cajones/risk taking shown in the Schenn trade isn't representative of how Hextall typically does things though. A guy like Homer it would have been perfectly representative of if we were the ones giving up the picks (and then some maybe) for the player.

The point is it proves that he CAN make risky moves. I'm not saying he regularly does, but saying he never does and never would is just factually incorrect.

 

[deadhead]

It depends what they cost.

Bozak on 2-3 years is fine, we can eat the last year if we have to.
Grabner on a low cost deal is fine, I see him as a 4th liner and PK guy, on the second line, bleeech. Lindblom will be just fine there.
Pateryn on a reasonable deal (3yr/$7.5M) and trade MacDonald (half salary retained which pays for Pateryn) or Hagg for a draft pick.

 

[Striiker]

You have a broader definition of risk than I do then. Simmonds puts up similar numbers annually and people don't seem to think it's a risk to move him (and they're right). Trading a 2nd line winger for two 1st round picks does not qualify as a risky move to me. Schenn in particular. He had no future at center for the Flyers and he was deemed as expendable. "Good" players are traded for picks every year, are they all risky moves? By that token, Toronto made a risky move by trading Versteeg to us for a 1st and a 3rd rounder.

There's a pretty big difference between Schenn and Simmonds situations.

First off, trading a 25 year old on a good contract is very different than trading a player who is going to turn 30 before this upcomming season starts and is about to need a brand new contract that will start at the age of 31.

Second, repeatedly calling him a 2nd liner doesn't make it true. Being on the 2nd line doesn't really matter, his production and level of play is what matters... and he puts up the numbers of a 1st liner. Just like it would make no sense to call Malkin a 2C.

Last, trading for a very late 1st round pick and a pick that was expected to be 25+ is very risky when you're giving up a young proven scorer. The reason it was a good trade is because there was a lot of potential reward to go along with that risk, but the risk was substantial.

 

[46zone]

There's a pretty big difference between Schenn and Simmonds situations.

First off, trading a 25 year old on a good contract is very different than trading a player who is going to turn 30 before this upcomming season starts and is about to need a brand new contract that will start at the age of 31.

Second, repeatedly calling him a 2nd liner doesn't make it true. Being on the 2nd line doesn't really matter, his production and level of play is what matters... and he puts up the numbers of a 1st liner. Just like it would make no sense to call Malkin a 2C.

Last, trading for a very late 1st round pick and a pick that was expected to be 25+ is very risky when you're giving up a young proven scorer. The reason it was a good trade is because there was a lot of potential reward to go along with that risk, but the risk was substantial.

Lets just agree to disagree, neither of us are going to change our minds.

Back to the condiment discussion...

 

[Striiker]

Lets just agree to disagree, neither of us are going to change our minds.

Back to the condiment discussion...

Hot dogs are sandwiches and I'll hear no arguments to the contrary.

 

[deadhead]

Schenn did not put up first line production in Philly. Top first line guys put up 50 ES points a year.
Schenn's last four seasons in Philly: 32, 28, 37, 27, even if you're optimistic, 40+ is the best you could expect, or 2nd line production.

He had 51 ES points in St Louis surrounded by two top forwards, we'll see if he can repeat that performance (I'd bet against it).
PP/60: 1.91 with St Louis, four previous years 1.26, 1.95, 1.39, 1.55.
So I'll bet his inconsistency will surface once again.

 

[46zone]

Hot dogs are sandwiches and I'll hear no arguments to the contrary.

If I can order a sausage & peppers sandwich, then a hot dog would certainly qualify.

 

[The Madrigal]

I suspect we’re just not going to agree no matter how much back and forth there is, which is fine. It’s nice to avoid the name calling and all of that and just disagree reasonably.

I would not go into the year with 23 players they refuse to send down before accounting for a single promotion. I also don’t think they want Laughton in the middle, but that’s neither my point nor yours.

Well I have chatted with you about the Sixers a lot and respect you as a poster. Do I disagree with you here, sure, but we can just agree to disagree if you want to. I will say though that in your response to your point about 23 players my guess is they could find a taker for Weal for a 7th round pick or something and they could always waive him down to the minors if need be.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Well I have chatted with you about the Sixers a lot and respect you as a poster. Do I disagree with you here, sure, but we can just agree to disagree if you want to. I will say though that in your response to your point about 23 players my guess is they could find a taker for Weal for a 7th round pick or something and they could always waive him down to the minors if need be.

Yep all good. I’m just trying not to drag on arguments that seem like they will never converge because it has to be terrible for everyone else to read.

Beyond the obvious like Simmonds, Gudas, and Raffl, Weal is movable. So is Hagg. MacDonald probably too, with retention. They have options and I hope they do move some of the chaff. I would. I just think their opinions are different. Hope I’m wrong!

 

[The Madrigal]

It depends what they cost.

Bozak on 2-3 years is fine, we can eat the last year if we have to.
Grabner on a low cost deal is fine, I see him as a 4th liner and PK guy, on the second line, bleeech. Lindblom will be just fine there.
Pateryn on a reasonable deal (3yr/$7.5M) and trade MacDonald (half salary retained which pays for Pateryn) or Hagg for a draft pick.

So Grabner is a fourth liner? How many fourth liners do you know that score 27 goals in back to back seasons? Maybe LIndholm can get a 27 POINT season before we just hand him over a 2nd line spot. Either way Grabner and Lindholm can be interchangeable parts as the 2nd and 3rd line LW's.

 

[Striiker]

If I can order a sausage & peppers sandwich, then a hot dog would certainly qualify.

Bingo

 

[The Madrigal]

We can do better than adding Grabner. Bozak I'm "meh" on. Hopefully Hextall can work the phones and add an impact player (ROR, Trouba, etc.).

I agree but I would just be happy with something like that based on what Hextall has done in the past and what he said at his press conference the other day. I think you can forget about him giving up the assets it would take for a ROR or Trouba.

 

[deadhead]

So Grabner is a fourth liner? How many fourth liners do you know that score 27 goals in back to back seasons? Maybe LIndholm can get a 27 POINT season before we just hand him over a 2nd line spot. Either way Grabner and Lindholm can be interchangeable parts as the 2nd and 3rd line LW's.

Grabner's goal scoring is a bit of a fluke. His underlying metrics, Corsi, xGF, are that of a 4th liner.
I would have more faith in Laughton on the LW than Grabner.

 

[hatcher]

We can do better than adding Grabner. Bozak I'm "meh" on. Hopefully Hextall can work the phones and add an impact player (ROR, Trouba, etc.).

yes

 

[hatcher]

I agree but I would just be happy with something like that based on what Hextall has done in the past and what he said at his press conference the other day. I think you can forget about him giving up the assets it would take for a ROR or Trouba.

No grabner dude. We a soft outfit already.

 

[The Madrigal]

Grabner's goal scoring is a bit of a fluke. His underlying metrics, Corsi, xGF, are that of a 4th liner.
I would have more faith in Laughton on the LW than Grabner.

Scoring 27 goals in back to back to back seasons is not a fluke. Especially for a guy who has also scored 34, 20, and 16 in only 45 games in consecutive seasons earlier in his career. He is also really good on the PK and a great skater, two things the Flyers desperately need. Calling him a fourth liner and saying you would prefer Laughton is absolutely laughable and absurd.