Has your faith in Holland been shattered?

[Aceboogie]

Ya I guess it just depends what people’s version of success is. I don’t expect a cup but a solid team and make playoffs is what I expect and eventually a cup lol.

For me, when you have the clear best player in the league and the 3 or 4th best forward inthe league, the conference finals on a semi yearly basis should be the base minimum expectation.

The Oilers in 2016 made it to within one game of that. Since then, we have not been close

The roster inherited had 2 of the top 5 players in the league and some other really solid pieces (Nurse, JP, Larsson RNH, Yamamoto, Bear, first round/ 2nd picks, etc etc). The only thing he had a limited resource of was the cap. But even from the get-go, he was overpaying vets. Hes made the roster either worse, or at best kept it around the same. Hes failed to improve goaltending and instead choosing to take a massive gamble that Smith repeats (at 39 years old, after his last 4 out of 5 years was well below league average). His drafting has been mediocre to poor (too early to call, but no propsetcs besides Holloway have turned heads and the Broberg pick likely stings us alot).

The expectation should still absolutely be conference finals or at least 1/2 cup appears within 5 years of his tenure here. So the clock is already ticking and he is running out of leeway very fast

But from the start he was the wrong fit. He is a good maintenance GM, where he can just take a good roster and make small tweaks here or there. He has never shown to be a creative GM, or be able to make significant overhauls to a roster. We need a GM who is going to search high and low for every competitive advantage, who will search for players on teams in cap constraints and pry them loose for cheap. Hes a guy who looks only at the well known players, who is overly enamored either with vets with "high character" or with guys who had high praise 4 years ago and he hopes he can recapture that play.

 

[Aceboogie]

All of the Canadian teams are poorly run.

Absolutely. I am not sure exactly why this is so

My personal theory is that the owners want to appease the massive and rabid fan bases. And most casual fans want that grey-haired vet GM who has been in the league for 20 years and is in the "old boys club". Its easier to have hope in those guys and hiring those guys results in the least backlash.

Whereas with small market US teams, they arent shackled with that, so can often look at other, not as traditional candidates. And the GMs they do hire (whether former players or new candidate), do not have the fan base pressure to bring in a certain type of player. Canadian fan bases want to see the rugged vet with cup experience brought in. Small market teams dont have the pressure or the cap space even to make big runs at these guys, so often get creative with the players they draft/sign/resign .

Just my theory

 

[OfCorsiDid]

what's the full list?

It’s behind a paywall.

All I know is the Oilers and the Leafs.

28th and 18th respectively.

 

[McSuper]

This is the equivalent of the Koskinen signing.

Oilers Jan 2019: "KOSKINEN SIGNED FOR THREE YEARS, 4.5 MILLION"
Me: "Hm... don't really care for Koskinen but I guess 1.5 mill per year isn't bad
Oilers: "NO IT'S 4.5 MILLION PER YEAR"
Me: what the....


Oilers July 2021: "TRADING FOR KEITH"
Me: "okay.. .he's old and has a big cap it...and we need that cap room ... but I'm willing to give this a try as long as their is salary retained or salary like Neal or Koskinen going back..."
Oilers: "NO WE ARE KEEPING THE WHOLE CAP HIT AND GIVING AWAY AN EXTRA PICK TO BE GENEROUS"

The story of the oilers over the last decade has been wasting assets. They have lost so many deals/transactions. Very few bright spots like some contract signings... but the majority of trades or signings have been over priced.

Except trades don't work the way fans think the do . Fans on this board freaks every time someone is traded or waived . GMs get comfortable dealing with certain teams and GMs and don't call every GM in the NHL about a trade . It like people , if I am selling a car at a real good deal I offer it to people I am close to first . GMs would have trouble finding anyone to deal with if they played the hard nose all the time , Heck Agents wouldn't want to deal with them and would advise their client to bolt the 1st chance they get . Holland may have over paid a little on some UFA and some trades but players talk and I bet it will go a long ways to making Edmonton more desirable . In the pass Players leaving complained about the organization . In the future players will hate leaving if they are treated right . Vegas will have a problem in the future if they keep signing players long term and trading them the next year . Holland has always had a good rep in Europe and the NHL he won't be here long at his age . Let him build up the Oilers as a good organization that treats players the right way .

 

[Laodongxi]

There seems to be a wide-spread belief that Holland is "way past prime", some kind of doddering old fool that has lost it for quite some time.

The guy is 65 years old.

Lou Lamoriello is 78 years old, but he is a cunning, cutthroat operator.

I guess time will tell?

 

[cpsman]

Except trades don't work the way fans think the do . Fans on this board freaks every time someone is traded or waived . GMs get comfortable dealing with certain teams and GMs and don't call every GM in the NHL about a trade . It like people , if I am selling a car at a real good deal I offer it to people I am close to first . GMs would have trouble finding anyone to deal with if they played the hard nose all the time , Heck Agents wouldn't want to deal with them and would advise their client to bolt the 1st chance they get . Holland may have over paid a little on some UFA and some trades but players talk and I bet it will go a long ways to making Edmonton more desirable . In the pass Players leaving complained about the organization . In the future players will hate leaving if they are treated right . Vegas will have a problem in the future if they keep signing players long term and trading them the next year . Holland has always had a good rep in Europe and the NHL he won't be here long at his age . Let him build up the Oilers as a good organization that treats players the right way .

I agree with the sentiment of your post. But I do not think that treating players with respect, and valuing your assets are mutually exclusive. I get that a GM may speak to other GMs he is comfortable with first, but he's not doing his job if he doesn't inquire around the rest of the market. Even if he is dealing with Chicago specifically to get Keith, he should be pushing to have them eat some salary. They needed Caleb Jones to help their case for getting Seth Jones. That need was more than Holland's need for Keith in my opinion. He had some leverage and I don't think he used it as well as he should have. Also your analogy of selling a car at a real good deal - your sales manager would fire you if you were selling cars just to your friends at a good steal. You would not have a job for very long. At the end of the day this is a business, and a lot of it (not all... but a lot) comes down to value and money for owners.

In regards to your comments of keeping players happy and changing the way the team is perceived by players and others around the league, I agree with you that Edmonton has not had a great reputation. I don't think Holland did any favours with the way he traded away Bear.... He was kind of run out of town unfortunately even though he was a player with great potential and a great personality in the community.

You are right though that the Oilers really do need to change their reputation on how their players are treated. It will make a big difference in recruiting players in the future.

 

[Aerchon]

There seems to be a wide-spread belief that Holland is "way past prime", some kind of doddering old fool that has lost it for quite some time.

The guy is 65 years old.

Lou Lamoriello is 78 years old, but he is a cunning, cutthroat operator.

I guess time will tell?

Holland may have always been a fool that just got lucky a long time ago. But generally speaking he has obviously gotten worse and worse with age over the last decade so I think it's fair to say old age has hit him harder than Lou for example.

 

[Laodongxi]

Holland may have always been a fool that just got lucky a long time ago. But generally speaking he has obviously gotten worse and worse with age over the last decade so I think it's fair to say old age has hit him harder than Lou for example.

Well, I haven't written him off quite yet. I really hope you are wrong. lol... It's going to be extremely unpleasant around here next year if you are right.

 

[Mr Positive]

Holland may have always been a fool that just got lucky a long time ago. But generally speaking he has obviously gotten worse and worse with age over the last decade so I think it's fair to say old age has hit him harder than Lou for example.

Holland didnt just get lucky with Detroit. That team was more than just the lucky draft picks, and they were contenders with peaks and valleys spanning generations

And of course their decline was inevitable. It happens to all teams. When Hedman retires Brisebois wont look like a genius anymore either.

Theres also the fact that the Red wings owner was dying. It wasnt until he passed that the team could really get into a rebuild. It explains most of the bad moves at the end.

Regardless, this can only be decided on the ice this year. Holland has put his stamp on the team. If the team has a breakthrough season, it will show he knows what he is doing. It amounts to a continuation of his last years in Detroit then it shows maybe he was in decline or lucky

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

As long as the goaltending remains the same as last season, this offseason is deemed a failure.

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

As long as the goaltending remains the same as last season, this offseason is deemed a failure.

So why bother playing the games then. Let’s just pack the bags and forfeit the 82 games.

 

[Porkleaker]

So why bother playing the games then. Let’s just pack the bags and forfeit the 82 games.

Considering what they've done in the play-ins and playoffs, that might not be a bad idea. TANK!!! This team has an insane amount of skill but zero f***ing heart. Guys like RNH, they're not men, they're little boys who buy horses and train with their zero talent brother instead of a professional. Then you've got Holland the idiot who still hasn't fired Dustin Schwartz or demoted him to anything other than a f***ing goaltending coach. Yeah, luckily we're in the Pacific, regular season will be easy but the playoffs....Stop giving the other Canadian teams ammunition!!! lol

 

[SaltNPeca]

Goalie situation and Keith trade shook me, but I'll wait for the opening night roster and give the team my support without negative vibes.

I am hoping he makes in-season moves to address issues.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

So why bother playing the games then. Let’s just pack the bags and forfeit the 82 games.

We have seen the last two years what the goaltending is, why would this year be any different in that regard?

 

[Aerchon]

Goalie situation and Keith trade shook me, but I'll wait for the opening night roster and give the team my support without negative vibes.

I am hoping he makes in-season moves to address issues.

Good post.

I'm a bit worried about how we will fare outside the division but even with some peculiar moves we "should" be able to be in the playoff picture.

Most my concern, and most others as well by the sounds, will be if they make the playoffs how can you really expect different results than the previous 2 years.

Edit: in other words I agree and will be pushing any concerns down the road and should be able to enjoy the season.

 

[Weitz]

There seems to be a wide-spread belief that Holland is "way past prime", some kind of doddering old fool that has lost it for quite some time.

The guy is 65 years old.

Lou Lamoriello is 78 years old, but he is a cunning, cutthroat operator.

I guess time will tell?

Look at their last 5 years.

it's not about age.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

We have seen the last two years what the goaltending is, why would this year be any different in that regard?

the goaltending that brought the Oilers to 2nd place in the division in back to back years?

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

the goaltending that brought the Oilers to 2nd place in the division in back to back years?

It's also the same goaltending that has won them a grand total of one playoff game over those two years.

And in addition, both goalies are older. They're not going to get better or healthier with age.

Smith goes down with an injury and so does the season.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

It's also the same goaltending that has won them a grand total of one playoff game over those two years.

And in addition, both goalies are older. They're not going to get better or healthier with age.

Smith goes down with an injury and so does the season.

luckily they can trade for a goalie during the season if its not working

the problem is, no one wants Koskinen's contract...maybe it's easier to get rid of at the trade deadline

but blaming Mike Smith because they scored exactly 1 goal in the first 2 games is dumb IMO

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

luckily they can trade for a goalie during the season if its not working

the problem is, no one wants Koskinen's contract...maybe it's easier to get rid of at the trade deadline

but blaming Mike Smith because they scored exactly 1 goal in the first 2 games is dumb IMO

He was still the second best goalie at the end of the day, fair or not.

Trading for a goalie mid-season reeks of desperation that other GMs will be more than happy to take advantage of. Midseason goalie trades aren't exactly common either. Mike Smith will be 40 when the playoffs roll around and another first round exit (or worse) should be grounds for at least some pink slips around the org.

 

[K1984]

Holland may have always been a fool that just got lucky a long time ago. But generally speaking he has obviously gotten worse and worse with age over the last decade so I think it's fair to say old age has hit him harder than Lou for example.

This is revisionist history. Lamiorello got shuffled out of New Jersey (where he was essentially a godfather) because of uninspiring management and was deemed to be too old not 6 years ago.

The comments about Hollands age and bullshit perceptions about his mental aptitude because he isn't a great public speaker are all nonsense. Would guarantee you would be "bumbling" too if you had a media consortium grilling you about your job performance with the threat of your answer turning into a meme depending on what you say.

 

[Cloned]

Laimorello isn't some god of GM'ing. What he did do right was he hired the best hockey coach in the world, which makes his above average roster perform significantly better than it looks.

If anything, it shows the importance of hiring a good coach (cough #FireTippett cough ).

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Laimorello isn't some god of GM'ing. What he did do right was he hired the best hockey coach in the world, which makes his above average roster perform significantly better than it looks.

If anything, it shows the importance of hiring a good coach (cough #FireTippett cough ).

Meanwhile, in Edmonton, we hired another also-ran who has never accomplished anything of worth. And I suspect Tippett's eventual replacement will be much the same. Any other Team Canada retreads we can hire?

 

[GOilers88]

Can we stop with the "if Smith goes down we're screwed" stuff?

How many teams can lose their starter for a season and not skip a beat? It's such a silly argument to try and make.

 

[K1984]

Can we stop with the "if Smith goes down we're screwed" stuff?

How many teams can lose their starter for a season and not skip a beat? It's such a silly argument to try and make.

It's in the same class as "if the Oilers didn't have McDavid and Draisaitl they would suck!"

The only team in the NHL that would survive without their two best players is probably Tampa, and even then I'm not sure that's true anymore.