Has this offseason changed your view about fighting in hockey?

[HHHH]

The OHA, the senior league Sanderson was playing in had essentially banned fighting by giving players a game misconduct for fighting and a gross misconduct for taking their helmets off in a fight. I am not sure it can fighting can (or should) be legislated out of the game through penalties.

 

[wickedwitch]

Nope, I still love fighting. Its part of hockey's tradition and we need to accept it.
Honestly, I wish more sports embraced fighting like hockey does. IMO it would end a lot of the cheap shots and trash talk that other sports have.

Because it's worked so well in hockey.

There's about as much of a link between fighting and cheap shots as there is between fighting and these deaths.

However, if it were proven to have a significant negative effect, then I'd have no issue with banning fighting, as it is not a necessary component of hockey.

Also, there's a difference between goons who fight to play and players who fight. If there was a way of getting rid of the former without affect the latter, I'd be in 100% support of that.

 

[Retire91]

I would hate to see fighting leave the game, even in the wake of this off season. This off season was awful but I still feel it was the exception rather than the norm. To make a bunch of game changing decisions over the coincidence of all these deaths would be knee-jerk IMO. They are failing to report all the fighters that go on to live just fine and have a great career to look back on. People die unexpectedly for many reasons daily at very young ages, you can focus on any group and make their jobs or lifestyles seem dangerous just like the media is doing here. Not saying fighting isn't dangerous but its not something that needs to be legislated for safety reasons.

 

[Banana Sandwiches]

Don Sanderson.

That wasn't from getting punched in the head. His head was accidentally slammed on the ice in a fight on a take down. He could have suffered the same injury is someone slammed his head into the boards without him wearing a helmet.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

No it hasn't.

 

[Big Phil]

What's wrong with TSN having an opinion about fighting? (Other than the fact that their opinion doesn't coincide with yours?)

It's not "trash talk" - it's an opinion.

Well when Michael Lansberg talks about it on every other episode of Off the Record it gets nauseating.

All I can say to the anti-fighting camp and the homers that licked their chops that a total of three fighters died this year is this:

#1 - It is an abberation that three enforcers died over a few months. This has never happened before and most likely never will within that time frame.

#2 - All three men had situations that didn't relate to fighting. Boogaard into drugs. Rypien was depreseed. Belak was retired (think about that) and had a lot going for him in his life. He had a wife and two girls. He was going to have a job with Nashville as an analyst. The guy didn't have to drop his gloves for the rest of his life. Yet he killed himself. What does this have to do with fighting?

#3 - I'll throw the names of Ron Ellis, Stephane Richer and Theo Fleury to name a few. All three men were clinically depressed at some time. None were enforcers and rarely fought. Am I making more sense here?

#4 - These are grown men. If they want to work on their skills better they are free to do so. They chose to stay in the NHL as enforcers. No one had a gun to their head. And the NHL compensates them very well last time I checked.

#5 - While people love to throw the names of Kordic and Probert as now deceased former fighters I thought I should bring up the names of enforcers who seem to have a brain in their head and have/had done pretty good for themselves post-hockey.
Rob Ray - analyst for Sabres
Tie Domi - former analyst on TSN, just wasn't made for TV though
Terry O'Reilly - Coached the Bruins and led them to a Cup final
Marty McSorley - current analyst
Nick Kypreos - current analyst
Don Cherry - Coach of the year in 1976. Reached two Cup finals and has been pretty much the face of Canada for 30 years
Dave Schultz - coached (still is?) in the minors
Larry Robinson - Won a Stanley Cup as a coach, didn't fight as much, but still
John Ferguson - coached in the NHL
Wayne Cashman - coached in the NHL
Rick Tocchet - coached in the NHL


Anyways, you get the point

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

That wasn't from getting punched in the head. His head was accidentally slammed on the ice in a fight on a take down. He could have suffered the same injury is someone slammed his head into the boards without him wearing a helmet.

But he didn't. He died because he hit his head on the ice after his helmet came off during a fight. Something we see all the time in fights. That's one of the biggest dangers of fighting and you can't say it's a non fighting injury.

 

[habsjunkie2*]

But he didn't. He died because he hit his head on the ice after his helmet came off during a fight. Something we see all the time in fights. That's one of the biggest dangers of fighting and you can't say it's a non fighting injury.

Even with game misconducts and suspensions, fighting will still occur. It is virtually impossible to eliminate, and it's not near the highest priority of things to fix. It wouldn't crack the top 10. There are more pressing needs and more incidents that are much more likely to cause long term harm to players.

These 3 deaths are unrelated to fighting, maybe not hockey itself entirely, but fighting is not the cause, drug abuse and depression were. Many people in many walks of life suffer from these conditions.

I like how some bring up Bob Probert and and his brain damage. Not to down play this condition, but Probert died from a heart attack and was highly addicted to drugs (cocaine ect). I'm sure getting punched in the head repeatedly likely was of no benefit, but had he not been a cocaine addict and whatever else he was hooked on, he would still be with us today. Probert had drug problems long before he took them punches to the head.

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

Even with game misconducts and suspensions, fighting will still occur. It is virtually impossible to eliminate, and it's not near the highest priority of things to fix. It wouldn't crack the top 10. There are more pressing needs and more incidents that are much more likely to cause long term harm to players.

These 3 deaths are unrelated to fighting, maybe not hockey itself entirely, but fighting is not the cause, drug abuse and depression were. Many people in many walks of life suffer from these conditions.

And depression is linked to repeated concussions causing these players to self medicate and destroy themselves. I'm not a doctor but it's not hard to connect the dots.

 

[Confound]

No it hasn't.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

But he didn't. He died because he hit his head on the ice after his helmet came off during a fight. Something we see all the time in fights. That's one of the biggest dangers of fighting and you can't say it's a non fighting injury.

How many people have died from fighting in hockey in over 100 years?

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

How many people have died from fighting in hockey in over 100 years?

Hard to say. Guys like Boogaard who develop addictions to cope with their multiple brain injuries can be more common than you think. That said, with how big enforcers are(and the fact that they are still being used just as much as they were if not more than in old time hockey) I'll bet it's more common now than ever.

 

[saskganesh]

How come no one talks about John Kordic?

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

I like how some bring up Bob Probert and and his brain damage. Not to down play this condition, but Probert died from a heart attack and was highly addicted to drugs (cocaine ect). I'm sure getting punched in the head repeatedly likely was of no benefit, but had he not been a cocaine addict and whatever else he was hooked on, he would still be with us today. Probert had drug problems long before he took them punches to the head.

Probert had CTE. Was that from his fighting career? I think it's safe to assume that. Did it contribute to his off the wall behavior? I don't know, but I think more research should be done on this type of thing.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Hard to say. Guys like Boogaard who develop addictions to cope with their multiple brain injuries can be more common than you think. That said, with how big enforcers are(and the fact that they are still being used just as much as they were if not more than in old time hockey) I'll bet it's more common now than ever.

Not hard to say at all, I'll ask again: how many people have died from fighting in over 100 years of hockey?

 

[tarheelhockey]

I like how some bring up Bob Probert and and his brain damage. Not to down play this condition, but Probert died from a heart attack and was highly addicted to drugs (cocaine ect). I'm sure getting punched in the head repeatedly likely was of no benefit, but had he not been a cocaine addict and whatever else he was hooked on, he would still be with us today. Probert had drug problems long before he took them punches to the head.

In Probert's case, it's not about the way he died, but what was discovered in the autopsy. The fact that he had CTE, even though it didn't contribute to his death as far as we know, creates a link between hockey enforcers and the boxers and football players whose brains have broken down over time. This is the stuff that led to Dave Duerson's and Andre Waters' suicides.

Even more unsettling is that Mike Webster officially died of "heart failure" after living for years in a state of dementia and prescription drug overload due to CTE. His certificate of death says the same thing as Probert's.

It's a bit like when the link between cigarrettes and cancer was first discovered. The initial reaction for a lot of people is, "Well, it's common sense. We've known for years this isn't good for you. If you don't want to get hurt, quit doing it." But it's not that simple... common sense isn't going to stop the money from flowing. As long as there's a financial incentive to do it, the health risks seem like an abstract concern.

 

[txpd]

Even with game misconducts and suspensions, fighting will still occur. It is virtually impossible to eliminate, and it's not near the highest priority of things to fix. It wouldn't crack the top 10..

anyone that says that fighting will be eliminated entirely isnt thinking it thru. fighting remains in other sports, but "its not part of the game". players that fight in baseball get suspended as a rule. players that fight out of defense who did nothing to start the fight, dont get suspended. if a player overreacts to a close pitch that should not have provoked charging the mount, that pitcher can fight, but wont be suspended.

in hockey elevating the penalties for fighting would reduce fighting, not eliminate it.

the difference is that the frequency and reasons for fighting would be seriously Pejorative Slured. giving up two quick first period goals won't be a reason to fight anymore.
those kinds of fights are at least four out of every five fights seen nowdays.

cutting down on concussions is a top 10 fix right now. it may be #1. you are not credible when you support eliminating hits to the head, but then excempting fighting from that. plain and simple.

if the nhl removed strategic/tactical fighting from the game and left standing up for a teammate fighting, you would see a 75 to 80% drop in fighting and little to no effect on players policing themselves.

the only complaints that would create would come from those fans that want more fighting and dont care what the justification for the fight is. they just like a good tilt.

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

Not hard to say at all, I'll ask again: how many people have died from fighting in over 100 years of hockey?

Are those the only 3 words you read guy? You have to look at the big picture when discussing this. Don't be dense. Or do you think Don Sanderson is the only player ever hurt in a hoceky fight? I'll go back to what I said earlier in the thread. If there is evidence fighting is having a serious effect on these guys health the way it did Boogaard and possibly Rypien and Belak than you have to do something.

 

[Trottier]

giving up two quick first period goals won't be a reason to fight anymore. those kinds of fights are at least four out of every five fights seen nowdays.

On the other hand, there are countless times that a team down 2-0 tries to change the direction of the game by virtue of trying to initiate a fight...or trying to run someone into the boards....

...and the opposing team does not take the bait.

Your approach would eliminate that strategy, those on-ice dynamics, too. And that is manipulating the game too far for many of us.

(And this ^^^ comes from someone who would not lose any interest whatsoever in the NHL were there not to be a single fight this upcoming season....as long as it was determined by what happens on the ice, as opposed to be dictated by those czars in the press box or on the couch.)

 

[habsjunkie2*]

Probert had CTE. Was that from his fighting career? I think it's safe to assume that. Did it contribute to his off the wall behavior? I don't know, but I think more research should be done on this type of thing.

I don't know all the ins and outs of CTE, could drug addiction attribute to it? Probert was hooked on coke early is his career, so i think it's unlikely that the coke addiction was brought on by CTE. He had an addictive personality, like many do and he died of a heart attack, not suicide caused by depression, drug abuse caused by addiction. How many people have died from drug abuse that have never been hit in the head?

anyone that says that fighting will be eliminated entirely isnt thinking it thru. fighting remains in other sports, but "its not part of the game". players that fight in baseball get suspended as a rule. players that fight out of defense who did nothing to start the fight, dont get suspended. if a player overreacts to a close pitch that should not have provoked charging the mount, that pitcher can fight, but wont be suspended.

in hockey elevating the penalties for fighting would reduce fighting, not eliminate it.

the difference is that the frequency and reasons for fighting would be seriously Pejorative Slured. giving up two quick first period goals won't be a reason to fight anymore.
those kinds of fights are at least four out of every five fights seen nowdays.

cutting down on concussions is a top 10 fix right now. it may be #1. you are not credible when you support eliminating hits to the head, but then excempting fighting from that. plain and simple.

if the nhl removed strategic/tactical fighting from the game and left standing up for a teammate fighting, you would see a 75 to 80% drop in fighting and little to no effect on players policing themselves.

the only complaints that would create would come from those fans that want more fighting and dont care what the justification for the fight is. they just like a good tilt.

I think you're off your rocker, plain and simple, hits to the head aren't nearly the same thing. Fighting is two willing combatants going toe to toe, hits to the head are done on an unsuspecting player, much worse and much more likely to cause serious harm. Hits to the head won't ever be eliminated either.

Fighting is already not allowed, it is a major penalty.

Are those the only 3 words you read guy? You have to look at the big picture when discussing this. Don't be dense. Or do you think Don Sanderson is the only player ever hurt in a hoceky fight? I'll go back to what I said earlier in the thread. If there is evidence fighting is having a serious effect on these guys health the way it did Boogaard and possibly Rypien and Belak than you have to do something.

Someone who is a fighter and also has a drug addiction is not proof of anything. You're trying desperately to tie these things together without knowing anything about their situations.

I think the fighter role is more likely to be attractive to these type of people in the first place, doesn't mean fighting caused it. Boogaard could of put in the effort to become a good enough hockey player that he wouldn't need to fight, but he didn't and chose the role he had. He wasn't forced to.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Are those the only 3 words you read guy? You have to look at the big picture when discussing this. Don't be dense. Or do you think Don Sanderson is the only player ever hurt in a hoceky fight? I'll go back to what I said earlier in the thread. If there is evidence fighting is having a serious effect on these guys health the way it did Boogaard and possibly Rypien and Belak than you have to do something.

I'll take that to mean you aren't interested in answering the question.

 

[Banana Sandwiches]

And depression is linked to repeated concussions causing these players to self medicate and destroy themselves. I'm not a doctor but it's not hard to connect the dots.

Boogaard didn't have depression and Rypien had depression when he was in juniors. I'm sure Rypien suffered a trillion concussions when he was 16 years old in juniors which lead to his depression.

Fighting in the NHL had nothing to do with their deaths.

Boogaard more than likely got hooked on pills while recovering from all of his shoulder and back injuries he had in Minnesota (not sustained in fights). If you want to blame anyone for Boogaard's death, blame the doctors who gave out the pills like they were candy.

 

[Banana Sandwiches]

cutting down on concussions is a top 10 fix right now. it may be #1. you are not credible when you support eliminating hits to the head, but then excempting fighting from that. plain and simple.

But the difference is that you can decide whether or not to fight (usually) and if you do decide to fight, you have an opportunity to defend yourself.

Blindside hits to the head are different because you really can't defend yourself from them.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I don't know all the ins and outs of CTE, could drug addiction attribute to it? Probert was hooked on coke early is his career, so i think it's unlikely that the coke addiction was brought on by CTE. He had an addictive personality, like many do and he died of a heart attack, not suicide caused by depression, drug abuse caused by addiction. How many people have died from drug abuse that have never been hit in the head?

Short answer is no, cocaine and other drugs don't contribute to CTE. The "T" stands for Traumatic, ie caused by impact to the head.

More complex answer is that CTE causes the brain to degenerate and the effects can include depression, delusion, memory loss and paranoia. Cocaine and other drugs can have the same effect. Based on the case studies before us, it would appear that CTE frequently leads people into a state of self-medication and eventual addiction. For a guy like Probert, who was already abusing drugs, all of this could have blended together.

One thing's for sure, he was not a healthy individual in any sense.

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

I'll take that to mean you aren't interested in answering the question.

I've given you an answer but you're only willing to accept one. You didn't ask "how many players have died on the ice from fighting" you asked how many players have died from fighting. I'll tell you right now fighting led directly to Derek Boogaards death. Even if you did ask "how many players have died on the ice" and I answered "one but..." I'm willing to bet this is what your post would look like:

One

Thank you

If you didn't want to actually talk about the issues that's fine. There wasn't really a point in posting.