Has this offseason changed your view about fighting in hockey?

[Wheatking]

Boxing and MMA have strict rules and regulations. Fighting in hockey has almost none.

Also the OD was due to health problems Boogy developed because of fighting. I'm sure you took the time to do the research so you probably already know this but Boogaard has serious PCS.

You can't put it solely on fighting though. That's just too simplistic.

Gilbert Brule hit Letang last season and came away with a concussion. He wasn't able to be involved in the Smyth trade because he was apparently at home suffering from depression as well. Are we supposed to eliminate clean hits from the game because Brule was/is depressed?

 

[Trottier]

Mmmmmmm I don't know, if there's evidence that fighting is destroying these guys health and resulting in these early deaths that were seeing you have to do something. Period.

With all due respect, your brief comment offers both steep assumptions and kneejerk over-reaction.

Around these parts, a popular way in which to roll, but in reality no manner in which to operate and make informed decisions in any walk of life.

I have always been against fighting in hockey...

A point of view that can be respected, even if one does not agree with it. On the other hand...

...and this summer proved that I am on the right side of the debate.

A totally irresponsible, baseless declaration.

 

[TasteofFlames]

This thread instantly made me think of this:

 

[Beville]

All 3 deaths were due to external factors, not strictly fighting related injuries..

So keep it.

Just increase the after care given to fighters (as well as other players) in the hope that they don't develop depression etc like Belak and Rypien.

 

[wjhl2009fan]

a thought to consider. tsn is an sports entertainment network. they do what they do based on very extensive research. they talk to their audience about things that they know from the research that their audience is interested in.

its a virtual certainty that tsn's research has indicated a real push back against fighting in the nhl. i'd guess that its partly because so many young people in canada play hockey. this fighting issue in canada and among its media translates throughout the social fabric of that country. the worse the concussion issue is at the nhl level, the more concern there is about head injuries at the junior hockey level where the players are still kids. that concern flows down strongly into the minor hockey ranks as well.

how can you have real concern about concussions without dealing with fighting which is nothing but blows to the head?

face facts, if the media is talking about it a lot, its because the audience is already focused on the issue.

My issue is people are loking at fighting saying you ban it you will stop or cut down on concussions but the issue is very few talk about dirty hits etc look at sid itw as not a fight that caused his concussion but a bad hit yet people want to blame fighting.

 

[txpd]

My issue is people are loking at fighting saying you ban it you will stop or cut down on concussions but the issue is very few talk about dirty hits etc look at sid itw as not a fight that caused his concussion but a bad hit yet people want to blame fighting.

* if the league is going to attempt to seriously cut down on concussions, it makes no sense to allow players to punch each other in the face. thats a direct route to a concussion and has to be dealt with for the league to be taken seriously.

* fighting after big clean hits is as frequent nowdays as fighting after dirty hits. does fighting deter big legal hits? no.

* which hit on crosby was dirty and which one should have required fighting?

* you are fooling yourself if you think the majority of fighting in the nhl has anything to do with deterring dirty hits. thats the real question here. you seem to be saying that for the nhl to allow the one fight that results from a dirty hit in a 20 game stretch they must also allow the other 15 fights are all about trying to get an upper hand to win the game?

anyone thats smart about fighting needs to recognize the difference in reasons for fighting. those like you that say fighting must remain because of the dirty hits are not engaging that those fights are only 1 out of every 25 or more fights and that the rest are optional.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The funny thing is that these 2-5 minute a night enforcers getting all the attention really don't fight that often.

It's not so much the frequency of the fights, as the way they add up over time for an individual player. Like I mentioned upthread, Boogaard already had well over 200 fights on his card and he was only 28. That's a lot of blows to the head, a lot of being grappled to the ice without his helmet on.

IMO, the real problem here is not that fighting is done but that certain players are around ONLY to fight. If the incidents were spread around more evenly among less dangerous punchers, and the staged element eliminated, I think the safety concern would largely disappear.

 

[Never]

Not at all. To blame the 3 deaths on fighting is asinine. The fact that all 3 guys were enforcers is just an unfortunate coincidence. Boogaard dying from accidentally OD'ing had nothing to do with his hockey style. Rypien and Belak suffering from depression and committing suicide had nothing to do with fighting either. If they both suffered from untreated concussions, then MAYBE, but in this day and age, I highly doubt it.

 

[Otto]

I used to like fighting a lot. However the tragedies of this summer have changed my views, especially in junior hockey. it's no coincidence that the three players who died were all "enforcers" The concussions play a part of it yes, but the bigger issue is that 2 of the three were confirmed to have suffered from depression which is a mental illness. To say that being a fighter had nothing to do with it is turning a blind eye to a serious problem. how many accountes have we heard from player saying how sick it made them to have to go out and fight on a regualr basis? How many have said they absolutly hated it, but had to do it or else they would be out of a job? Compound that sickness over 10-20 years and it's easy to see how these players suffer from depression

It's asinine to say fighting doesn't play at least a small part.

 

[txpd]

Not at all. To blame the 3 deaths on fighting is asinine. The fact that all 3 guys were enforcers is just an unfortunate coincidence. Boogaard dying from accidentally OD'ing had nothing to do with his hockey style. Rypien and Belak suffering from depression and committing suicide had nothing to do with fighting either. If they both suffered from untreated concussions, then MAYBE, but in this day and age, I highly doubt it.

i dont think this has anything to do with the three deaths. it has more to do with the concussion rate in the nhl and the nhl's desire and the pressure on the league to do something about it.

the league is looking at any way that they can reduce the number and severity of blows to the head. they can't do that on one hand and leave fighting alone on the other hand.

here's something that we have not talked about in this thread. professional athletes train harder than ever with more and more targeted training. there is so much money at stake for the individuals and the teams and the competition drives this very hard. this training for enforcers includes not only fitness and strenth training but they are working like professionals on their fighting technique and they get VIDEO prep for each coming opponent. its serious stuff and guys get hit harder now then every before.

last season the caps had three players that did the majority of their fighting. bradley, hendricks and erskine. all three suffered at least one fighting concussion.
you just cant ignore that.

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

I just think with guys regularly breaking their faces because of fights(Fedoruk, Boogaard, MacIntyre, Ivainans, Koci) some of them being career ending you have to look at doing something at least about regulating it. Maybe (and this is probably the stupidest idea in the history of hockey) but designating these guys as enforcers and then going from there. The first part is protecting these goons from themselves. If one of these guys gets a concussion the rules should be different. He should have to sit out at least 6 months rather than the 7 days after the symptoms stop that players usually have to.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

It's a known fact that fighters are generally nice guys. I'm not certain you could say the acts of a few should be lumped in with the majority. They are all different guys off the ice. Maybe these select few had other issues that we didn't know about like depression? It's unfortunate but I think it's more than just the guy being an enforcer. Perhaps it has a correlation and maybe it doesn't. I'm not sure you can prove it. The shots to the head might cause tissue damage and all but unless you knew the person inside and out and were with them everyday i'm notcertain you can say it affected them off the ice.

 

[straka91*]

Its one of the hardest jobs in the sports world and you need to be mentally tough as well as physically to survive the role. But, they signed the contract and know the duties that come with it. If they thought they couldnt hack it, they wouldnt of been playing the role anymore and go on to other ventures. The 3 fighters that passed on had little to do with fighting.

*Rypien had been battling depression for most of his professional career, and speculation was personal issues and the pressures of being in the big show, fighting most likey played a part but not the sole reason.

* Boogaard got injured from a fight, thats about as far as that goes when blaming fighting for his death. His injury led to a pain killer addiction and had a bad mix. I really dont consider that a suicide because he couldnt handle being an enforcer.

*Belak was an accidental "suicide". Little/no connection to fighting and more to extreme self pleasure gone bad. Not even sure he was depressed in the first place.

*Fridge had/has a drug problem, so did Philips, Emery, and Redden, being an enforcer didnt make him do drugs. He and he himself got hooked, fighting or hockey didnt sell him the drugs or force it into his system.

Sad but nothing more than a giant coincidence that the 3 were rough and tumble players. If 3 scorers died in the same time period would you change your opinion on scoring goals? Exactly. How many enforcers of the last 30 years committed suicide? No more than non enforcers. Nothing but anti-fighting propaganda getting shoved down our throats. I see no reason to change views on fighting because of these tragic losses.

Anyone can get depression and it doesnt need to be from fighting or headshots. I know a computer programmer that suffers from it. Head contact doesnt help, but isnt a direct cause for it either. Its caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain btw. (For people not understanding what causes depression.)

 

[Ruslan Zainullin]

did it change my view about fighting in hockey? no, not really. what it did was change my perception of the culture in the NHL, i knew they liked to party but i (nievely) had no idea that drug use, and prescription drug abuse was as prevalent as it is. i had a cleaner cut view of the nhl than i do now.

 

[Steve]

Boxing and MMA have strict rules and regulations. Fighting in hockey has almost none.

Also the OD was due to health problems Boogy developed because of fighting. I'm sure you took the time to do the research so you probably already know this but Boogaard has serious PCS.

I'm very aware of Boogaard's PCS and the NHL is certainly lacking on awareness and treatment. Further in my post, I commented on this. Boxing and MMA may have strict rules and regulations, but I don't think their rules include "you're not allowed to concuss your opponent" which is where your debate comes from. People are calling for it to be banned b/c people are dying of PCS and other related symptoms which I believe to be unfair. No one has died on the ice from being beaten after his team did not allow him to heal properly. We have 2 suicides, both parents say they suffered from depression before their careers, the other an OD on painkillers/alcohol from his brother - not a doctor.

Just to reiterate on the boxing piece, I don't think anyone has died from a beating on the ice... the same can not be said about boxing.

 

[Banana Sandwiches]

No, but it changes my views on all the hypocrites in the media who use these deaths to shove their agenda down our throats.

100% right on.

It's disgusting the number of anti-fighting articles that have come out since the deaths of Boogaard, Rypien, and Belak (especially Belak in just about any Toronto newspaper). I've lost a lot of respect for writers who have blindly written anti-fighting articles based on these three deaths.

Personally, I think this string of deaths was just a really bad coincidence. I think it's silly to automatically blame fighting when no one knows for sure what caused it.

I still love fighting and I'll always love fighting. It has a purpose and the vast majority of fans and players like fighting and want it to stay.

 

[txpd]

what is the purpose?

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

I'm very aware of Boogaard's PCS and the NHL is certainly lacking on awareness and treatment. Further in my post, I commented on this. Boxing and MMA may have strict rules and regulations, but I don't think their rules include "you're not allowed to concuss your opponent" which is where your debate comes from. People are calling for it to be banned b/c people are dying of PCS and other related symptoms which I believe to be unfair. No one has died on the ice from being beaten after his team did not allow him to heal properly. We have 2 suicides, both parents say they suffered from depression before their careers, the other an OD on painkillers/alcohol from his brother - not a doctor.

Just to reiterate on the boxing piece, I don't think anyone has died from a beating on the ice... the same can not be said about boxing.

You would be wrong.

 

[Steve]

You would be wrong.

Duk-Koo Kim
Becky Zerlentes
Benny Paret
Marco Nazareth

Have died from boxing injuries.... I couldn't find any hockey ones specifically from fights - I could be wrong though

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

Duk-Koo Kim
Becky Zerlentes
Benny Paret
Marco Nazareth

Have died from boxing injuries.... I couldn't find any hockey ones specifically from fights - I could be wrong though

Don Sanderson.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

You would be wrong.

Yeah and how many years ago was that? I'm sure back in the day when they had no helmets there was enough trauma without fighting anyway, so if it happened I wouldn't say it fully resulted from a fight.

 

[octopi]

No, but it changes my views on all the hypocrites in the media who use these deaths to shove their agenda down our throats.

It certainly changes my view on how fast somebody can make anything seem correlated to anything they want.

I'm just surprised they haven't blamed that tragic plane crash on concussions yet. Tune in next week, when we find out one of the flight mechanics had one....

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

Yeah and how many years ago was that? I'm sure back in the day when they had no helmets there was enough trauma without fighting anyway, so if it happened I wouldn't say it fully resulted from a fight.

Don Sanderson died about 2 years ago. It was a national story.

 

[Seanconn*]

what changed for me was Teemu fighting. If a player of Teemu's caliber and class sees a point to fighting, then it definitely plays a legitimate role.

it's not like the two guys fighting aren't both willing to take a beating. Boxing is a sport, and no one cries about concussions in that sport.

If people decide they want to goon up the league, and give the fans a "show" just for the hell of it, let em'.

It's really not detracting from the game all that much. More importantly, the prospect of having to deal with the other teams enforcer trying to fight you if you engage in cheap hits the head on other players, serves to keep players more honest in terms of dirty physical play.

If a guy clearly doesn't want to fight, he's not going to have to fight, and the other team will get a penalty if the instigator continues to pursue a fight - while the other player makes it clear he has zero interest in fighting.

that being said, the instigator rule is stupid, as it's hard to decipher who really started the fight most of the.

and because the scenario where one guy is physically harassing another non willing player to fight, is quite uncommon in today's NHL. considering most fights involve 2 guys completely willing to do battle... let them go at it!

 

[tarheelhockey]

But, they signed the contract and know the duties that come with it. If they thought they couldnt hack it, they wouldnt of been playing the role anymore and go on to other ventures.

I just don't think this rationale can fly in an era when a guy like Boogaard makes $1.6 million a year. Realistically, very few people would EVER quit a job that pays that well, regardless of safety conditions.

In regard to the correlation between fighting and dangerous head trauma, I think Probert's autopsy gave us the "smoking gun" moreso than any of the more recent deaths. Yes, theoretically his CTE could have been caused by simply playing a checking role over many years... but there's pretty much zero question that it was exacerbated by the accumulation of blows in his 240-odd fights. Imagine how many times he was punched hard in the head by bare knuckles, how many times he hit his head on the ice. And bear in mind that subconcussive blows also count toward the development of CTE. It's clear enough that Probert had severe brain damage as the result of being an enforcer.

what changed for me was Teemu fighting. If a player of Teemu's caliber and class sees a point to fighting, then it definitely plays a legitimate role.

And this is the other side of it. Fighting belongs in hockey, I do believe that. Teemu isn't significantly risking his health by dropping the gloves once every few years, and it can be an important even for him and his team. Taking away that option would detract from the game in my opinion... and it would certainly be less entertaining.

Maybe (and this is probably the stupidest idea in the history of hockey) but designating these guys as enforcers and then going from there.

I would actually go in the opposite direction -- instead of protecting the pure enforcer, find a way to take him out of the game altogether. Eliminate that job description in the NHL. It's ridiculous to have guys out there with twice as many fights as points, accumulating crippling brain damage and giving the league a black eye. If players want to fight, let 'em, but make sure they're out there to play hockey as a first priority.