Has this off-season been a dissapointment?

[The Abusement Park]

The Jets got handicapped by the cap and one can argue they aren't set up long term. The Avs' D is set for the long term and we actually have quality prospects. Sakic has been very careful in setting up contracts to manage the cap. I think our situation embodies a longer cup window than other teams although you can argue teams like the Hawks will consistently field competitive teams because of Stan Bowman's willingness to be a lot more aggressive with trades. Teams fill in and end up with bad contracts. The Avs are in an unbelievably enviable position. I hear your concern. But I don't see the Avs' position as being analogous to the Jets'.

I think we could have a window longer than average if our situation is handled correctly. But if we plan on having a long window that could skew the view of the present, and that is that we have a team that can contend for a Cup right now. I think the Mack contract is our best shot at a cup and I think the 3 seasons after this one are our best shot at winning the cup. After Mack’s deal who knows, but I’d hate saying that we didn’t give it a legit go before Mack doubles/triples his cap hit.

 

[henchman21]

The Jets got handicapped by the cap and one can argue they aren't set up long term. The Avs' D is set for the long term and we actually have quality prospects. Sakic has been very careful in setting up contracts to manage the cap. I think our situation embodies a longer cup window than other teams although you can argue teams like the Hawks will consistently field competitive teams because of Stan Bowman's willingness to be a lot more aggressive with trades. Teams fill in and end up with bad contracts. The Avs are in an unbelievably enviable position. I hear your concern. But I don't see the Avs' position as being analogous to the Jets'.

I think the situations are much closer than you think... and when have the Jets really had cap issues? They hovered ~74m all last season until the deadline ($6m under the cap). 16-17 hovered around $68m until the deadline ($7m under the cap). About $68m in 15-16 ($5m under the cap). They haven't ever had cap issues. They ran into issues of their core not fully panning out, players starting to age past their primes, and a core piece not wanting to stay long-term as a UFA(currently their 2nd or 3rd best player). Any or all of those issues could hit the Avs within 5 seasons. Landy could command a big raise, then fall on his face. Rants could get a deal that takes him right to UFA and walks. Makar could 'only' end up a #3D. Winnipeg failed at building a winner despite great scouting and drafting.

You look at their draft record the talent they pulled in over 5 years is kinda incredible
2011- Scheifele and Lowry - #1 and #3Cs
2012 - Trouba and Helle - Top pairing D (at minimum) and #1G
2013 - Morrissey and Copp - Top 4D and Bottom 6 role
2014 - Ehlers - Top 6 wing
2015 - Connor - First line wing

Those 5 drafts along pretty much give a solid core. Add in Buff, Wheeler, and Little roaming, they should have had a much better chance. Even adding in another top 6 winger in Laine hasn't pushed them over.

Great drafting and development alone cannot win a cup.

 

[Pokecheque]

 

[Avs_19]

Avs have added:

-A very good 2C, which was probably the biggest need on the team (Kadri)
-Depth up front without hurting the team long-term (Donskoi, Burakovsky, and Bellemare)
-A potential top pairing D in the draft (Byram)
-A potential top six forward in the draft (Newhook)

Avs have lost:

-Barrie
-Soderberg
-Varlamov
-No one else of significance

If this is it for the Avs then it was a great offseason. It could get even better though with some of the names still out there.

 

[Raucherhusten]

I think the situations are much closer than you think... and when have the Jets really had cap issues? They hovered ~74m all last season until the deadline ($6m under the cap). 16-17 hovered around $68m until the deadline ($7m under the cap). About $68m in 15-16 ($5m under the cap). They haven't ever had cap issues. They ran into issues of their core not fully panning out, players starting to age past their primes, and a core piece not wanting to stay long-term as a UFA(currently their 2nd or 3rd best player). Any or all of those issues could hit the Avs within 5 seasons. Landy could command a big raise, then fall on his face. Rants could get a deal that takes him right to UFA and walks. Makar could 'only' end up a #3D. Winnipeg failed at building a winner despite great scouting and drafting.

You look at their draft record the talent they pulled in over 5 years is kinda incredible
2011- Scheifele and Lowry - #1 and #3Cs
2012 - Trouba and Helle - Top pairing D (at minimum) and #1G
2013 - Morrissey and Copp - Top 4D and Bottom 6 role
2014 - Ehlers - Top 6 wing
2015 - Connor - First line wing

Those 5 drafts along pretty much give a solid core. Add in Buff, Wheeler, and Little roaming, they should have had a much better chance. Even adding in another top 6 winger in Laine hasn't pushed them over.

Great drafting and development alone cannot win a cup.

Have some faith man. We have pretty much all the pieces in place that we need to compete. The glass is not always half empty, you know. Our window JUST opened.

 

[Foppberg]

No offense Hench but since Barrie was traded it seems like you've steered hard into an Eeyore mindset.

 

[the_fan]

The way I look at it is point production lost vs point production gained..

Out
Soderberg 40 to 50 p
Barrie 60 p
Kerfoot 40 p

In
Kadri 50 to 60p
Donskoi 30 p
Burakovsky 30 to 40
Bellemare 15 p

So let's go with the lower end of this numbers

Out 140 points
In 125 points

So it looks like Avs losing point production but when you factor in Makar and his projected production which should be at least 30 points minimum it's about even or little more, but then you gotta take out Soderberg because he would be gone after next season as a UFA

It's a pretty good offseason for the Avs, it's not as good as would have been if they got Panarin, but overall a solid moves

 

[Pokecheque]

I think the situations are much closer than you think... and when have the Jets really had cap issues? They hovered ~74m all last season until the deadline ($6m under the cap). 16-17 hovered around $68m until the deadline ($7m under the cap). About $68m in 15-16 ($5m under the cap). They haven't ever had cap issues. They ran into issues of their core not fully panning out, players starting to age past their primes, and a core piece not wanting to stay long-term as a UFA(currently their 2nd or 3rd best player). Any or all of those issues could hit the Avs within 5 seasons. Landy could command a big raise, then fall on his face. Rants could get a deal that takes him right to UFA and walks. Makar could 'only' end up a #3D. Winnipeg failed at building a winner despite great scouting and drafting.

You look at their draft record the talent they pulled in over 5 years is kinda incredible
2011- Scheifele and Lowry - #1 and #3Cs
2012 - Trouba and Helle - Top pairing D (at minimum) and #1G
2013 - Morrissey and Copp - Top 4D and Bottom 6 role
2014 - Ehlers - Top 6 wing
2015 - Connor - First line wing

Those 5 drafts along pretty much give a solid core. Add in Buff, Wheeler, and Little roaming, they should have had a much better chance. Even adding in another top 6 winger in Laine hasn't pushed them over.

Great drafting and development alone cannot win a cup.

Good post. I do think the Jets made some crucial mistakes the last couple years, one of them being re-upping Bryan Little instead of dealing him. They should have been way more aggressive in addressing their own issues at center than two token acquisitions at the 2018 and 2019 deadlines. I think they're also waiting way too long to make a coaching change, and I actually like Paul Maurice.

Very strange to see them stumble the way they did this last season. A line that features Scheifele and Wheeler should be absolutely destroying the opposition, and instead they got caved in defensively.

I like the Avs approach of being aggressive without being stupid (thus far). I think that...hopefully...gives them a better chance than the Jets had the last couple seasons.

 

[henchman21]

No offense Hench but since Barrie was traded it seems like you've steered hard into an Eeyore mindset.

I've been the driver of the 'MacK's contract is our window' bus for a long time... Barrie, no Barrie, I've always been that Eeyore!

Have some faith man. We have pretty much all the pieces in place that we need to compete. The glass is not always half empty, you know. Our window JUST opened.

Jet's fans said that in 2015... and it is now closed. I'd argue the Avs window should have opened earlier, but 4 seasons is a solid window to work with.

Good post. I do think the Jets made some crucial mistakes the last couple years, one of them being re-upping Bryan Little instead of dealing him. They should have been way more aggressive in addressing their own issues at center than two token acquisitions at the 2018 and 2019 deadlines. I think they're also waiting way too long to make a coaching change, and I actually like Paul Maurice.

Very strange to see them stumble the way they did this last season. A line that features Scheifele and Wheeler should be absolutely destroying the opposition, and instead they got caved in defensively.

I like the Avs approach of being aggressive without being stupid (thus far). I think that...hopefully...gives them a better chance than the Jets had the last couple seasons.

Yeah I'd also agree they made some mistakes. I'd say the over projected Little for a long time thinking he could be that #2C guy and just never patched that hole. That was my fear with Jost and Sakic continuing to project him there. Sakic was bold and got a #2C. I think that automatically improves upon what the Jets did. It came at a cost, but he fixed the most significant roster issue without trying to patch for 3 seasons, just one.

My big thing with the Jets is they should have been aggressive in 2015... the pieces were there to be bold and they took a large step back. Still weren't bold in 2016 despite adding a #2 pick, and failed again. Finally made an aggressive move at the 2018 deadline and it about paid off... but it was 2.5 full seasons behind what they should have done. It is a lesson learned in picking your moments, knowing your window, and don't over project your players.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Remember that not only does Nathan Mackinnon need a new contract in 4 years, but every single player in our organization does too.

Mackinnon is our longest contract right now. Not only is he getting a pay increase but so is pretty well everyone else.

Don’t understand how people can be so confident in our window beyond these next 4 years when we currently know what 0 out of the 23 people on that potential roster will be making.

 

[5280]

I didn’t read the thread, but not to me.

Not sure about Burakowsky, but we should be just as good and maybe better than we were last year with the addition of Kadri and Donskoi and the subtraction of Barrie and Kerfoot short term. Burky could be a good cherry on top if he pans out. The addition of just Kadri alone should be able to compensate for Barrie’s production.

I think the lack of a second line was a bigger impact than the production Barrie contributed from the backend. He was more of a bandaid.

We “should” be better than last year, although that doesn’t mean that we will go further. We could always have a couple of key injuries in the playoffs or run into a hot team or goalie.

 

[The Kingslayer]

It's been a fantastic offseason.

1- We get rid of Barrie and his contract demands. He wants 8x8 and there was no way we were giving him that with Makar, Girard, Byram and Timmins on the roster.

2- We finally acquired a 2C. A guy who is a 30/30 player and a great 2 way center. He will bring so much to this team that was lacking last year.

3- Bellmare is one of the best 4th line centers in the league. Vegas fans were not happy that he left. He will bring what Calvert did last year. You win games with these guys.

4- We signed Donskoi who can play up and down the lineup and re-signed Wilson who can do the same.

5- We acquired an extremely talented player in Burakovsky who was buried behind some great players in Washington. Pair him with Rantanen or MacKinnon and he will shine.

A+ offseason.

There you are. I was looking for you since the day we traded Barrie lol. Funny, you were the first person I thought of when that trade went down haha.

 

[Raucherhusten]

I've been the driver of the 'MacK's contract is our window' bus for a long time... Barrie, no Barrie, I've always been that Eeyore!



Jet's fans said that in 2015... and it is now closed. I'd argue the Avs window should have opened earlier, but 4 seasons is a solid window to work with.



Yeah I'd also agree they made some mistakes. I'd say the over projected Little for a long time thinking he could be that #2C guy and just never patched that hole. That was my fear with Jost and Sakic continuing to project him there. Sakic was bold and got a #2C. I think that automatically improves upon what the Jets did. It came at a cost, but he fixed the most significant roster issue without trying to patch for 3 seasons, just one.

My big thing with the Jets is they should have been aggressive in 2015... the pieces were there to be bold and they took a large step back. Still weren't bold in 2016 despite adding a #2 pick, and failed again. Finally made an aggressive move at the 2018 deadline and it about paid off... but it was 2.5 full seasons behind what they should have done. It is a lesson learned in picking your moments, knowing your window, and don't over project your players.

I'm not arguing with most of that but i'm also a bit shocked that you wanted us to compete earlier. How early exactly? In case you forgot we were the worst team in the league 2017 ... by a mile. And now, just a bit over two years later, we are (most likely) ready to compete. Call me crazy but i think it's borderline impossible to do this faster. If so please enlighten us HOW? Cause i have no bloody idea.

I'm sure the next 5ish years will be the most exciting years to be an AVs fan since the golden days. Will it end up with a Cup? I don't know because as we all know you are not only have to be good to win one but you have to be lucky, too. So we'll see. But at least we have a shot; and a damn good one i may add.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I'm not arguing with most of that but i'm also a bit shocked that you wanted us to compete earlier. How early exactly? In case you forgot we were the worst team in the league 2017 ... by a mile. And now, just a bit over two years later, we are ready to compete. Call me crazy but i think it's borderline impossible to do this faster. If so please enlighten us HOW? Cause i have no bloody idea.

Had we gotten a legit 2C at any point last year I think we win the round against the Sharks. It was a glaring hole going into the season and it definitely showed.

 

[henchman21]

Had we gotten a legit 2C at any point last year I think we win the round against the Sharks. It was a glaring hole going into the season and it definitely showed.

Yup this... argued it that whole summer, this season, and deadline.

 

[Raucherhusten]

Had we gotten a legit 2C at any point last year I think we win the round against the Sharks. It was a glaring hole going into the season and it definitely showed.

If it's so easy to fill that hole Barrie would still be here. And pls don't bring up ROR or Tavares, they were never an option for us. He had faith in Jost and he was wrong. He corrected his mistake this off-season.

Patience fellas. It's not always the best idea to want quick solutions rather than to wait for the right one.

 

[Gatorbait19]

I wouldn’t call this off-season a disappointment, but at the same time I’m not going to say it was a massive success.

The Good: I loved the Barrie deal, getting a 2c locked in at a cheap rate for 3 years, for a guy that wouldn’t be here past next year. Moves like this make us just as dangerous now, as well as elongate our window.

The Bad: While we added 1 bona fide top 6 guy in Kadri, we really needed at least 2 more top 6 guys. I wish we would’ve found a way to get Zucc (would’ve done 4 x $7m which is close to what he got from Wild over 5 years.). The Burakovsky deal still perplexes me, especially in light of the fact that Gusev is now available. Hopefully we either add that top 6 guy or Jost, Compher, or Donskoi take the next step.

Grade: For FA i’d give us a B or B+, but if you factor in the draft, I’d give an A- to an A.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Before the Kadri deal I was very worried. I do have my concerns about our defense without Barrie, because lack of offense from the back end WILL BE PROBLEM. People like to shit on Barrie, but this will be problem next season. No one is going to replace his offense.

Trading Kerfoot was massive win for us, like someone said earlier, not a player you want in your top-6 or your bottom-6. He doesn't fit anywhere! I am so glad we didn't give him that ugly 4 year contract. Thank God!

I have trust for Grubauer, so let's go! Things are looking good! SAkic noticed the same flaws we noticed during the last playoff run, lack of depth upfront (which he fixed beautifully!) and then lack of proper #2 center. KADRI. LOVE IT!

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Had we gotten a legit 2C at any point last year I think we win the round against the Sharks. It was a glaring hole going into the season and it definitely showed.

My issue with adding a 2C last summer was:

1. we were one season removed from one of the worst season in the NHL.
2. we just barely made the playoffs.
3. it would have used some of the very good pieces we now have as depth or used a one of our very good player e.g. Barrie might have been traded last summer without knowing anything about Makar.

Getting a 2C last summer could have easily backfired and make us miss the playoffs as well. Who knows?

It was just a bit too early IMO. I'm glad Sakic was more patient than some of you are here.

 

[The Abusement Park]

If it's so easy to fill that hole Barrie would still be here. And pls don't bring up ROR or Tavares, they were never an option for us. He had faith in Jost and he was wrong. He corrected his mistake this off-season.

Patience fellas. It's not always the best idea to want quick solutions rather than to wait for the right one.

Hayes would’ve been easy to acquire at any point in the last year. There were rumors that the rangers were also willing to listen on offers for Zibanejad. Those are the two big ones off the top of my head, I’m not saying it was entirely a mistake to not acquire one last offseason, but after the great start we had adding a 2C should’ve been something we absolutely should’ve have done. With how open the west was we absolutely could’ve gone to the finals last year with a legit 2C.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

 

[Spleenless Wonder21]

That's because you people make a lot of assumptions about me

I think the Avs turned a weakness into a strength (Kadri @ 2C) by turning a perceived strength into a question mark, if not potential weakness (defensive scoring). I like their offseason, don’t love it. I’m fine with posters who feel they didn’t do enough. IMO, On paper they aren’t better beyond a reasonable doubt heading into the 2019-20 campaign.

And for goodness sake, someone give Eeyore aka @henchman24 his tail back!

 

[Raucherhusten]

Hayes would’ve been easy to acquire at any point in the last year. There were rumors that the rangers were also willing to listen on offers for Zibanejad. Those are the two big ones off the top of my head, I’m not saying it was entirely a mistake to not acquire one last offseason, but after the great start we had adding a 2C should’ve been something we absolutely should’ve have done. With how open the west was we absolutely could’ve gone to the finals last year with a legit 2C.

So Hayes, huh. The 7y 50M Hayes? THAT Hayes?!? Sure, great idea. We now have Kadri. Who do you prefer?

Ziba was never really on the market. And if so we might have lost Ott 1st to get him. So no Byram. Worth it? I don't think so.

We all know we had a big hole in our lineup. But heck, we had about 10 of those a year before. I'm old enough to know that sometimes patience pay off (Duchene anyone?) and i'm glad that Joe is a patient man and waited for the right time to make the right move.

 

[cgf]

So Hayes, huh. The 7y 50M Hayes? THAT Hayes?!? Sure, great idea. We now have Kadri. Who do you prefer?

Ziba was never really on the market. And if so we might have lost Ott 1st to get him. So no Byram. Worth it? I don't think so.

We all know we had a big hole in our lineup. But heck, we had about 10 of those a year before. I'm old enough to know that sometimes patience pay off (Duchene anyone?) and i'm glad that Joe is a patient man and waited for the right time.

No, that's what Hayes signed for this summer, not last summer.

He was and it wouldn't have.

Chevy was a patient man who waited for the right time too

 

[Raucherhusten]

No, that's what Hayes signed for this summer, not last summer.

He was and it wouldn't have.

Chevy was a patient man who waited for the right time too

I don't even know ... i give up.