Has Messi surpassed Gretzky/Jordan and others as the GOAT for all sports?

[norrisnick]

In actual basketball if you flop on a charge it's a technical foul.

And in football it's a yellow card. The trick is that a lot of flops in both sports aren't called and the end result is the current state of basketball and football.

 

[TBF1972]

I don't want to get too into the weeds here but the UCL was less than a decade old when Messi started his career. Barca had won and been to a handful of Finals anyway of the European Cup.

Which, it was harder to qualify for the European Cup because it was only actual league champions. Also, the Bosman Ruling roughly a decade before Messi started his pro career changed football. It consolidated talent onto just a handful of clubs throughout Europe. Then the UCL format changed to let all those clubs in for basically free (except the PL where you have to earn it, to an extent, because there's more than 4 good clubs, unlike La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1 but even PL it's easier because you don't have to win the league to qualify.)

So before mid-90s you had clubs roughly made-up of home-grown (home country at least) and the talent was spread out all over Europe, was more clubs in more leagues in Europe that could compete to be the best. After, if you joined one of the handful of clubs that soaked up all the talent, you could get near free league championships every year and be one of the handful of clubs with a chance to win the Champions League. Different eras. Messi, Ronaldo, etc., their era in Europe was easier to win trophies than it was for previous players.



C'mon man.

In over 90 years ONLY 8 countries in the entire world have won the World Cup. Argentina is one of them and they won two before Messi was even born. Only 6 of those countries, in the entire world, have won the World Cup multiples times. Argentina is one of them and they had won multiple World Cups before Messi was even born.

Only 4 countries in the entire world have won 3 or more World Cups. Argentina is one of them, with 2 of those coming before Messi was born.

Only 4 countries in the entire world have been in the World Cup Final 6 or more times. Argentina is one of them, with 3 of those coming before Messi was born and a 4th just after he turned 3 years old.

Bit disingenuous to try and sell Argentina as some sisters-of-the-poor or Washington Generals equivelent or like they have the football (soccer) history of Tonga and then Messi came along and carried them to glory they'd never witnessed before. No, Messi was born in a country that wins World Cups and he helped them win another one.

Messi grew up on an Argentine NT talent era that won the U-20 World Cup 5 times in a 7 edition span. i.e. someone like Di Maria won the U-20 World Cup, too. Also won an Olympic Gold medal, too. Won Copa America, too. Won the World Cup, too. etc. (note; Argentina has won the U-20 World Cup more times than any other country in the world, for another example of their non-poor talent level.)

Argentina won World Cups before Messi. They won the Olympics before Messi (literally 4 years prior), they won the U-20 World Cup before Messi (again literally 4 years prior) and they won Copa America before Messi, 14 times. They won the CONMEBOL-UEFA Cup of Champions before Messi played for them. And they won other major/minor competitions that Messi didn't win.

Argentina is a major footballing nation. Hence, all their winning at the various levels and their success essentially since major international competitions started.

you overrate the pl quite a bit. today the pl is the best league in the world. but for large parts of messi's career spanish clubs dominated european team competition. spanish teams (sevilla, valencia, athletico and villareal) won 12 of the last 20 euro league titles. those results contradict with your your evaluation, that la liga only has two competitive teams.

 

[WarriorofTime]

C'mon man.

In over 90 years ONLY 8 countries in the entire world have won the World Cup. Argentina is one of them and they won two before Messi was even born. Only 6 of those countries, in the entire world, have won the World Cup multiples times. Argentina is one of them and they had won multiple World Cups before Messi was even born.

Only 4 countries in the entire world have won 3 or more World Cups. Argentina is one of them, with 2 of those coming before Messi was born.

Only 4 countries in the entire world have been in the World Cup Final 6 or more times. Argentina is one of them, with 3 of those coming before Messi was born and a 4th just after he turned 3 years old.

Bit disingenuous to try and sell Argentina as some sisters-of-the-poor or Washington Generals equivelent or like they have the football (soccer) history of Tonga and then Messi came along and carried them to glory they'd never witnessed before. No, Messi was born in a country that wins World Cups and he helped them win another one.

Messi grew up on an Argentine NT talent era that won the U-20 World Cup 5 times in a 7 edition span. i.e. someone like Di Maria won the U-20 World Cup, too. Also won an Olympic Gold medal, too. Won Copa America, too. Won the World Cup, too. etc. (note; Argentina has won the U-20 World Cup more times than any other country in the world, for another example of their non-poor talent level.)

Argentina won World Cups before Messi. They won the Olympics before Messi (literally 4 years prior), they won the U-20 World Cup before Messi (again literally 4 years prior) and they won Copa America before Messi, 14 times. They won the CONMEBOL-UEFA Cup of Champions before Messi played for them. And they won other major/minor competitions that Messi didn't win.

Argentina is a major footballing nation. Hence, all their winning at the various levels and their success essentially since major international competitions started.

Who said Argentina wasn't a major Footballing nation? The 2014 roster that he went to the Finals with when he was close to his peak was definitely a weaker roster (outside of Messi) by Argentina standards though.

GK - Sergio Romero
RB - Pablo Zabaleta
CB - Hugo Campagnaro
CB - Martin Demechelis
CB - Federico Fernandez
CB - Ezequiel Garay
LB - Marcus Rojo
LB - Jose Maria Basanta
RM - Maxi Rodriguez
RM - Ezequiel Lavaezzi
CM - Fernando Gago
CM - Javier Mascherano
CM - Lucas Biglia
CM - Enzo Perez
LM - Angel Di Maria
CF - Lionel Messi
CF - Sergio Aguero
CF - Gonzalo Higuain

 

[Oilslick941611]

globally, yes, absouluetly

 

[Cup or Bust]

I am knowingly going to trigger many with this post but I think it takes more skill to skate, take physical contact, and be able to shoot and pass a puck then to run and kick a ball into a giant net. I grew up playing both soccer and hockey and hockey is way more difficult to play. That does not mean the talent and skill to play soccer at the highest levels is not amazing, I just personally do not think it is as amazing as being able to play hockey at the highest levels.

I also think soccer is the most boring sport on earth and I am willfully promoting my ignorance about it in order to voice my personal opinion. In my biased opinion hockey is a much better sport then soccer so I would never consider the best soccer player the best athlete or team sport player just based on that alone. Most popular on a world wide scale maybe although I know absolutely nothing about him besides hearing his name from time to time as being a soccer player.

 

[Voight]

I think there's a case to be made for it, as he's the best player of all time in the most popular (thus, most competitive) sport in the world. But there's an argument for Pele or Maradona, if one wants to make it. On the other hand, I don't think there's an athlete who dominated their respective sport quite like Gretzky. Phelps, Lomu, Williams, Bradman, Ruth and Jordan are in the conversation but I think Wayne takes it for unattainable greatness.

Brady
Gretzky
Jordan

Ali
Ruth
Messi
Djokovic
Nicklaus
Nurmagomedov
Lomu
Bolt
Phelps

honouable mentions:
Tiger
Lebron
Orr
Mario
Manning
Sugar Ray Robinson
Sanders
Federer
Nadal
Pele
Silva
GSP
Ohtani
Ted Williams
Richie McCaw

I'd put Tiger Woods in this group as well.

Won 14 Majors in an 11 year span, ranked #1 for the majority of that time frame and at one point he was the reigning champion of all 4 majors (only person who's accomplished that feat).

 

[Voight]

you overrate the pl quite a bit. today the pl is the best league in the world. but for large parts of messi's career spanish clubs dominated european team competition. spanish teams (sevilla, valencia, athletico and villareal) won 12 of the last 20 euro league titles. those results contradict with your your evaluation, that la liga only has two competitive teams.

Context should be applied here... they've won the Europa League 12 times in 20 years yes, but thats a 2nd tier competition and not nearly as prestigious as Champions League. & they aren't playing against most of the top clubs anyhow, seeing as those teams are typically playing in CL.

 

[Reaser]

Who said Argentina wasn't a major Footballing nation?

The guy I was responding to who kept trying to downplay Argentina as if they were some 3rd tier nation. Then he said they only won when they had a once in a generation type player (Maradona & Messi) which also was incorrect, since they won a World Cup before them, too.

you overrate the pl quite a bit. today the pl is the best league in the world. but for large parts of messi's career spanish clubs dominated european team competition. spanish teams (sevilla, valencia, athletico and villareal) won 12 of the last 20 euro league titles. those results contradict with your your evaluation, that la liga only has two competitive teams.

My post you quoted talks about the Champions League and how only league champions used to qualify for the European Cup. Nice response talking about the 2nd tier competition and claiming I "overrate the pl quite a bit" when you clearly didn't comprehend what you read.

 

[swiftwin]

I hope you realize the US has produced exactly 0 stars in soccer's history. And I am not talking superstars. Basically in the top 50 best soccer players in the world there has never ever not even for a single season been a single American. So who gives a fck that soccer is a sport talented kids in America don't play when talented kids all over the world play soccer.

Uhhh, what???

As of right now, there is one Canadian and one American among the top 50:

50 Best Soccer Players In The World In 2023

Who is the world's best football player? The beauty of the question is that it will spark a thousand-hour debate among your friends with no objective answer. Trophies, league strength, raw stats, unquantifiable magic, and

www.hoodmwr.com

Infact, the Canadian player on this list is the best soccer player in the world at his position (Left Back)

FC 100 best men's soccer left-backs, 2022-23

Who were the top 10 left-backs in men's football in 2022-23? Our analysts from around the world make their case in this edition of the ESPN FC 100.

www.espn.com

 

[swiftwin]

I'm not going to change your mind but I just want to address "soccer players rolling on the grass" for all the people in the back:

GETTING KICKED HURTS!!!!

Shit like this is pretty commonplace:

It's pretty easy to tell who in this thread has seriously played soccer, and those who haven't.

 

[Overrated]

Uhhh, what???

As of right now, there is one Canadian and one American among the top 50:

50 Best Soccer Players In The World In 2023

Who is the world's best football player? The beauty of the question is that it will spark a thousand-hour debate among your friends with no objective answer. Trophies, league strength, raw stats, unquantifiable magic, and

www.hoodmwr.com

The list is a joke. Cristiano Ronaldo #3? He is outside of the top10 at this point. A goalscorer who didn't even have the highest GPG in the Saudi league and was kicked out of the EPL is not better than Haaland. Heck even Messi isn't the best player in the world in 2023. John Marty might be American himself so he put a forward who scored 1 goal and 1 assist in 30 games last season in his top50 at #41. And by the way that guy is the greatest most expensive US player ever.

You're right about the "Canadian" guy being among the best defenders in the world. It still doesn't negate my point since this guy was born in Ghana where soccer is the most popular team sport so it's clear he wasn't following the pattern @x Tame Impala mentioned about talented American kids playing other sports.

 

[Panthaz89]

I hope you realize the US has produced exactly 0 stars in soccer's history. And I am not talking superstars. Basically in the top 50 best soccer players in the world there has never ever not even for a single season been a single American. So who gives a fck that soccer is a sport talented kids in America don't play when talented kids all over the world play soccer.


Nobody? There are threads all the time in here about whether Orr is the greatest or whether Lemieux peaked higher. People compare Ronaldo and Maradona to Messi for sentimental reasons. Unlike Americans most people couldn't care less about statistics, they vote based on emotion. Statistically Messi is far and beyond anyone and everyone.

If you lived in the US you would understand why Americans don't care about soccer much and its generally where all the lesser athletes would go compared to basketball and A.Football. I could go to a terrible NFL team and they would like a bunch of freaks of nature compared to the majority of soccer players in the world with the exception of special teamers like the kicker and punter. I'm pretty sure Soccer would be probably the 5th-6th most popular sport in the U.S since a lot of people can afford to play other sports without hurting their wallets much. Not too long ago it wasn't uncommon to be insulted for picking soccer over football. Americans don't like ties at all and find soccer boring even friends who played it in school find it incredibly uncompetitive compared to A.Football.

 

[Hanji]

Without question he is.

Gretzky is the best of a ridiculously small talent pool. Messi on the other hand...

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Without question he is.

Gretzky is the best of a ridiculously small talent pool. Messi on the other hand...

In terms of sheer dominance relative to peers Gretzky leads the way but that's a very good point about relative talent pool. And Jordan shouldn't really even be in the conversation.

 

[Overrated]

In terms of sheer dominance relative to peers Gretzky leads the way but that's a very good point about relative talent pool. And Jordan shouldn't really even be in the conversation.

He doesn't because both Orr and Lemieux were on his level, their careers were just cut short because of injuries.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

He doesn't because both Orr and Lemieux were on his level, their careers were just cut short because of injuries.

Which is your opinion based on a hypothetical but doesn't change the reality of Gretzky's actual dominance.

 

[Overrated]

Which is your opinion based on a hypothetical but doesn't change the reality of Gretzky's actual dominance.

Not hypothetical. I am talking primes. All three players played plenty of games throughout their primes to compare.

It's not so common for people who witnessed both to say Gretzky wasn't as dominant as Orr. Yeah maybe they are sentimental about their childhood hero but it's way too many people who put Orr above Gretzky to ignore.

You know there are people who do the whole adjusted points thing based on the scoring averages to compare eras. Well Mario Lemieux has 3 out of the 4 highest adjusted PPG seasons in NHL's history.

So no Gretzky objectively didn't dominate Lemieux. Even if he were better than him at their respective peaks (which is debatable as I've shown) it would be by a tiny bit.

 

[Voight]

The list is a joke. Cristiano Ronaldo #3? He is outside of the top10 at this point. A goalscorer who didn't even have the highest GPG in the Saudi league and was kicked out of the EPL is not better than Haaland. Heck even Messi isn't the best player in the world in 2023. John Marty might be American himself so he put a forward who scored 1 goal and 1 assist in 30 games last season in his top50 at #41. And by the way that guy is the greatest most expensive US player ever.

You're right about the "Canadian" guy being among the best defenders in the world. It still doesn't negate my point since this guy was born in Ghana where soccer is the most popular team sport so it's clear he wasn't following the pattern @x Tame Impala mentioned about talented American kids playing other sports.

Davies moved to Canada when he was 5. That the earliest age most kids start organized sports. Nice try.

Not to mention he landed in Edmonton which is a hockey city. There would be a small modicum of sense in your argument if he had landed in a city like Toronto where soccer is fairly popular.

 

[x Tame Impala]

In terms of sheer dominance relative to peers Gretzky leads the way but that's a very good point about relative talent pool. And Jordan shouldn't really even be in the conversation.

This thread is so off the rails

 

[Ben White]

Messi is not even the goat soccer player, get over it. Stat padding playing for the most stacked team in soccer history with a system entirely built around him in an uneven league. Like sending current Oilers to the AHL and getting impressed by McDavid’s 250 points. What happened when Messi was sent to PSG? Just because he then won a fluke World Cup on a stacked team doesn’t make him the goat. Maradona brought a mediocre Argentina squad to the WC gold medal and a bottom feeder in Napoli to consecutive league titles in the best, toughest and most evenly matched league in the world at the time and maybe ever.

 

[Overrated]

Davies moved to Canada when he was 5. That the earliest age most kids start organized sports. Nice try.

Not to mention he landed in Edmonton which is a hockey city. There would be a small modicum of sense in your argument if he had landed in a city like Toronto where soccer is fairly popular.

Nice try? The point is that he came from a place where soccer is the main sport. Do you think if Ronaldo or Messi moved to Canada at 5 with their entire football loving families they would play Lacrosse instead? Homegrown talented kids might not play soccer but a talented guy from Ghana might duh.

Messi is not even the goat soccer player, get over it

If secondary assists were counted the way they are in the NHL his PPG would likely be at least 50% higher than the 2nd best player's ever which of course Gretzky could never ever boast about. It is what it is, he is the GOAT. Nobody has ever dominated as much in any sport ever not counting niche sports 100 years ago like the batting sport Bradman or what was his name played.

 

[armani]

Messi is not even the goat soccer player, get over it

GOAT with EK65 and Milan Michalek.

 

[Ben White]

Nice try? The point is that he came from a place where soccer is the main sport. Do you think if Ronaldo or Messi moved to Canada at 5 with their entire football loving families they would play Lacrosse instead? Homegrown talented kids might not play soccer but a talented guy from Ghana might duh.


If secondary assists were counted the way they are in the NHL his PPG would likely be at least 50% higher than the 2nd best player's ever which of course Gretzky could never ever boast about. It is what it is, he is the GOAT. Nobody has ever dominated as much in any sport ever not counting niche sports 100 years ago like the batting sport Bradman or what was his name played.

BS many players could have done what he did in his situation. He had a goat favorable situation I give you that.

 

[Haatley]

In actual basketball if you flop on a charge it's a technical foul.


Ohtani belongs nowhere near this list. And Bonds should be close to the top.

Bonds!?!

I guess if steroids weren't banned, yeah.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

This thread is so off the rails

Because I made a comment about two of the players mentioned in the OP?

If it's about Jordan, there's a case to be made he's not even the GOAT of basketball so for me that takes him out of the running.