Has Messi surpassed Gretzky/Jordan and others as the GOAT for all sports?

[blundluntman]

It's Tom Brady and it's not close.

Tom Brady is the Jean Beliveau of the NFL

 

[Haatley]

Tom Brady is the Jean Beliveau of the NFL

Tom Brady is the GOAT of the NFL who continued to put up elite numbers into his mid 40s. He stayed in tremendous shape and actually put together 3 hall of fame careers

 

[blundluntman]

Tom Brady is the GOAT of the NFL who continued to put up elite numbers into his mid 40s. He stayed in tremendous shape and actually put together 3 hall of fame careers

Yes, he does have a long and consistent prime which is extremely impressive but his peak isn't as high as a couple of other QBs. He was an instrumental piece and the best player on the Patriots but his supporting cast and coaching was insanely good. He's the greatest but not the best as far as I'm concerned. When I say best I'm referring to overall dominance against his peers on an individual level. His intangibles are great and he's an amazing leader but as far as the eye test goes, I don't think he is the best QB of all time. Then again, I'm biased bc I hate the Patriots.

 

[ElGuapo]

I'm not a basketball fan anymore, but Jordan is the sports GOAT. Perfect talent plus the best work ethic and killer instinct. He would be as good as needed. Prime Jordan playing in 2023 would average around 50 ppg and be the best defensive player in basketball.

 

[Sempiternal]

You are not going to get a consensus and definitely not in North America. Not everyone likes the same sports. There's a definite bias.

 

[Voight]

Yes, he does have a long and consistent prime which is extremely impressive but his peak isn't as high as a couple of other QBs. He was an instrumental piece and the best player on the Patriots but his supporting cast and coaching was insanely good. He's the greatest but not the best as far as I'm concerned. When I say best I'm referring to overall dominance against his peers on an individual level. His intangibles are great and he's an amazing leader but as far as the eye test goes, I don't think he is the best QB of all time. Then again, I'm biased bc I hate the Patriots.

I'd argue his peak in 2007 is just as good if not better than most if not all QBs.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

everyone, before voting, pls watch The Last Dance

"Please watch the propaganda produced by Jordan because he felt threatened by Lebron before voting."

 

[Video Nasty]

That's because Gretzky wasn't in Howe era and Jordan wasn't in the Lebron era... I think with Messi and Ronaldo it's the first time in team sports you're having two monsters in the same era.

If Gretzky played in Lemiux or Howe era he wouldn't win or have as many MVPs... at least a couple would be stolen. Same with Jordan playing in the Lebron era. Also, the underdogs would always step up to compete with the best.

Also, arguments only existed before the world cup. As time goes by the argument is kind of dying. There's no list online that will have Ronaldo over Messi.

I'm sure that if Howe played in the same era as Gretzky many would prefer Howe for N reasons. Also, there would be a rivalry so you'd be forced to pick one. That's what the marketing for Messi vs Ronaldo was... Messi is obviously the best ever in the sport, only Pele can maybe be debated. In the same way you can debate Kareem and Bill Russell as better than Jordan

What are you talking about here in regards to Jordan? Bird and Magic won the MVP in 5 out of his first 6 seasons. That’s almost half of his career prior to his Wizards stint. Bird and Magic are both inside the top 10 ever.

He won 4 more in the other 7 seasons he played. Barkley and Malone both won when the case could certainly be made for MJ. NBA writers have this weird unwritten rule that no one can win 3 straight MVP’s over the 40 years since Bird did it.

We saw it with Jokic not completing the feat this past season. We saw it with LeBron winning two, losing, then winning two again. We saw it with Nash having possibly his finest season after winning two in a row and not getting a third. We saw it with Jordan winning two, losing to Sir Charles and having 4 MVPs and coming off a 72 win season making the writers feel okay with handing it to Malone before giving it back to Jordan one final time during the second 3 peat.

That’s simply the way it is in sports and especially in the NBA and it’s not exclusive to LeBron’s career.

Final note: Gretzky and Lemieux were contemporaries. Gretzky also had a direct effect on Lemieux leveling up when they played together for the ‘87 Canada Cup.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Messi > Gretzky. At the end of the day, GOAT of all sports has no metrics and it's determined purely through voting. Either through voting from fans or professional writers. Does anyone think Gretzky can get as many votes as Messi globally? Nope.

 

[McFlash97]

I don't understand how people can't see that Gretzky has nearly 3000 points. I don't care if Messi was appointed by the gods, you can't surpass a God. I like Messi too, top 3 soccer player of all time but cmon.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Jordan in a no hand-check NBA would be unstoppable. NBA players past and present have said as much many many times.

I’m a biased American for sure but soccer is a boring game and I’ll never put Messi over greats like Jordan, Lebron, Gretzky, Lemieux, Bonds, Randy Johnson, Brady, Payton, etc…

Soccer sucks and is lame as f***. Come at me bro’s, as soon as you get up off the grass after faking an injury and crying your eyes out on global television

In America the kids who played soccer were the ones who didn’t have the strength, hand eye coordination, or quite frankly balls to play the real sports. I know Messi is supremely talented but it’s still soccer and I still don’t care about it. Never have never will. I played for about two years and even became a certified soccer ref at one point. It’s a lame game.

 

[beowulf]

Once again. One million people play hockey and those players are the ones who has rich enough parents to support their kids doing so which narrow down the talent pool more than it already has. 260 million people play soccer, in a sport everyone has acesss too which makes the talent pool even more competitive among those hundreds of millions.

This makes it hundreds of times harder to become the goat in football than in ice hockey by sheer numbers. And then we don't take into consideration that hockey is only for those who can afford it. Perhaps there are better player than Gretzky who didn't have the means enough to play. Everyone can play football which remotes that doubt.

It baffles to me that some of you think they are even comparable to any degree. It's like I walked into a forum among the community of the wrong turn movie, if anybody has seen it, not a good one btw.

Realize this sport of hockey is like badminton in the eyes of the rest of the world or female volleyball.

Sure I love it but it is what it is.

You are severely under estimating the number of people who play hockey. Not saying it is anywhere near soccer but the number of closer to 30M to 35M people play ice hockey specifically.

I would then argue that become a pro soccer player is not any harder given the shear number of professional leagues around the world vs ice hockey.

To give you an idea, this wiki page that lists pro leagues for various sports does not have soccer on it because pro soccer has it's own page since there are so many.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

In America the kids who played soccer were the ones who didn’t have the strength, hand eye coordination, or quite frankly balls to play the real sports.

I played for about two years and even became a certified soccer ref at one point.

Interesting.

 

[Machinehead]

Jordan in a no hand-check NBA would be unstoppable. NBA players past and present have said as much many many times.

I’m a biased American for sure but soccer is a boring game and I’ll never put Messi over greats like Jordan, Lebron, Gretzky, Lemieux, Bonds, Randy Johnson, Brady, Payton, etc…

Soccer sucks and is lame as f***. Come at me bro’s, as soon as you get up off the grass after faking an injury and crying your eyes out on global television

In America the kids who played soccer were the ones who didn’t have the strength, hand eye coordination, or quite frankly balls to play the real sports. I know Messi is supremely talented but it’s still soccer and I still don’t care about it. Never have never will. I played for about two years and even became a certified soccer ref at one point. It’s a lame game.

I'm not going to change your mind but I just want to address "soccer players rolling on the grass" for all the people in the back:

GETTING KICKED HURTS!!!!

 

[J bo Jeans]

soccer is only that popular because you can drop anything resembling a ball on the ground and run with it. Every other sport requires more gear...which is expensive. Especially hockey. Just because it's more accessible via the cheapness of it's availability worldwide provides a really interesting debate about it's popularity. Not going to argue that because it's a whole other topic really. But accessibility leads to viewership and participation and shouldn't hold weight in terms of who is the best in their sport.

Also:
Watching soccer is like watching a golfer putt in slow slow-motion on my inevitably shitty Sprectrum cable lagging.

Participation should absolutely hold weight.

Being the best player out of a pool of 2 billion is far more impressive than being the best player in a pool of 2 million.

You are severely under estimating the number of people who play hockey. Not saying it is anywhere near soccer but the number of closer to 30M to 35M people play ice hockey specifically.

I would then argue that become a pro soccer player is not any harder given the shear number of professional leagues around the world vs ice hockey.

To give you an idea, this wiki page that lists pro leagues for various sports does not have soccer on it because pro soccer has it's own page since there are so many.

It is not remotely close to 35 million. Theres around 2 million registered players. If you wanna be really generous lets say theres twice the amount of unregistered players, so 6 million total at the very max.

 

[DJN21]

Participation should absolutely hold weight.

Being the best player out of a pool of 2 billion is far more impressive than being the best player in a pool of 2 million.


It is not remotely close to 35 million. Theres around 2 million registered players. If you wanna be really generous lets say theres twice the amount of unregistered players, so 6 million total at the very max.

I dont mean this in a snarky way sometimes text comes across wrong but genuinely asking whats he bar for "registered players"?

 

[Midnight Judges]

I'm not going to change your mind but I just want to address "soccer players rolling on the grass" for all the people in the back:

GETTING KICKED HURTS!!!!

yeah and sometimes they actually got kicked lol.

 

[GoldenSeal]

Hockey is (by far) my favorite sport, but it's too niche for me to consider Gretzky the greatest athlete in sports. It's simply "easier" to become the world's greatest hockey player, compared to the world's greatest footballer/soccer player. Which is still say, still exceptionally difficult, but you're competing against predominantly upper-middle class white guys from colder climates.

The thought of Messi ice skating and playing hockey intrigues me.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Interesting.

I played it after high school, I played varsity baseball my man. Did the reffing classes and played with friends for 2 years

 

[x Tame Impala]

I'm not going to change your mind but I just want to address "soccer players rolling on the grass" for all the people in the back:

GETTING KICKED HURTS!!!!

That may be, but baseball players don’t roll around in a the dirt for 20 seconds after taking 80+mph baseballs into their bones and body, getting flattened in football doesn’t feel very fun either, hockey players blocking shots is the same thing.

 

[Ezekial]

Who says Messi is the GOAT soccer player?

 

[PromisedLand]

end of discussion

/thread

 

[Suntouchable13]

That may be, but baseball players don’t roll around in a the dirt for 20 seconds after taking 80+mph baseballs into their bones and body, getting flattened in football doesn’t feel very fun either, hockey players blocking shots is the same thing.

Trying to picture a baseball player getting grazed on his jersey by a pitch, rolling around in the dirt trying to milk the call

 

[J bo Jeans]

I dont mean this in a snarky way sometimes text comes across wrong but genuinely asking whats he bar for "registered players"?

National governing bodies (USA Hockey, Hockey Canada, etc) keep a tally of all their players are registered in their sanctioned competitions. Any minor hockey league is sanctioned by the these organizations. These numbers are divulged to the IIHF who than comes out with the final tally.

Not sure if all beer leagues and other rec adult leagues are sanctioned but none of those players have any shot playing pro hockey so counting them or not really doesnt matter.

 

[North Cole]

Oh this popped up again? No he hasn't. Even if he had, pretty sure neither of those guys are the goat of goats anyways. Thought the goat cricket player had even more nutty stats