Has MAF’s Vegas career solidified his HOF status?

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Was Snow the one that actually had like a little drop down panel between his pads for a minute?

**** was getting ridiculous there for a while.

Yup- all goalies had their little tricks. In fact I still have little cheaters on the inside of my pads and little plastic flaps that prop up my shoulder pads to increase surface area

But yea Garth snow and his surfboard pads were ridiculous. And it should be noted that Broduer was the opposite of the pads (for transparency sake, he was who I modeled my game after). I remember reading an interview with him and some goalie magazine. He said he prefers the smaller pads because it allows him to move more quickly since going from side to side can cause the insides of the pads to rub and throw his balance off

 

[ziggyjoe212]

I was basically just hating on Brodeur, though pretty much everyone's pads were big then. I'll cop to it.

Giguere was certainly one of the worst offenders in that regard, though. And UGH, Garth Snow. Thanks @K Fleur

But there is a good conversation to be had in how those equipment and play rules in the deadpuck era effected the stats- look at how low Brodeur's save percentage is during those years. Is it because Brodeur was a bad goalie? Of course not. But I think we can make an argument that the defensive techniques of the dead puck era made it incredibly difficult to get shots on net (at its lowest, 27.3 per game average, compared to 31ish for the last few seasons), unless they were very good scoring chances, so the save percentages are correspondingly lower too. We're kind of handicapped with what stats we have recorded and the lack of availability of all the games on tape, though, so I don't know if we can ever definitively answer that question. I just think it's worth while to discuss it.

It's wild to me that the average SV% was like .885 during the beginnings of the dead puck era and it's now .910. That's a huge difference in the amount of shots that get saved in a very short amount of time.

It's hard to rate goalies because so many are a product of the team around them. For example, John Gibson is widely considered the best goalie in the world at the moment but you would never know it based on his stats last season. Also, Luongo pretty much wasted his entire career on non playoff teams and his career accomplishments and stats took a noticeable dive as a result.

What we do know is that Brodeur was consistent throughout his 20 year career, and his career numbers and accomplishments are borderline untouchable. Would Brodeur still achieve legend status playing on Florida and Phoenix? Probably not, but it doesn't matter because he did achieve all those things.

I'm far from a Brodeur supporter. I'v fallen asleep to countless Devils games and am still bitter at NJ for helping nearly destroy hockey with the trapping and clutch and grab era. But we gotta give credit where credit is due.

 

[K Fleur]

Luongo gets an incredibly unfair rep for the 2011 finals. His entire team pulled a Houdini on him and he ended up the fall guy. I mean seriously he got them to a game 7 in that series with his team only coming up with 8 goals worth of support.

Plus in his early Florida days he was a brick f***ing wall. Just surrounded by a shit team.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

He was never elite, or even an all star, and has arguably the worst playoff stats in the history of the league. However, he is on pace to finish top 3 in career wins in the history of the league. It will be hard to keep him out with such a major accomplishment.

I, personally, covered him as an all star in Raleigh. It's one of four he was a part of.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

I have two different answers that need to be framed in different ways...

Do I think it should? Not really. I never saw MAF as a HoF goalie and he's only truly in the discussion as a compiler. Having a long, successful career definitely means something; especially at that position, but he's mostly hitting checkmarks that he's had an incredible advantage at (shootouts becoming a thing at the same time as he became a starter and being a goalie on nothing but playoff teams since 2006-07). Now I do think Vegas absolutely strengthens his argument in the sense that a couple mediocre years on a team with the expansion excuse certainly wouldn't have...but rather than being Osgood's sjourns to Long Island & St. Louis; Vegas has proven that Fleury can succeed on a different team playing a different style. Considering Vegas plays defense and the Pens rarely did, I don't think that surprises too many of us, but still.

Do I think it has? Let me put it this way...Marc-Andre Fleury is going to be in the Hockey Hall of Fame. It's a question of if he deserves it or not and of how long it'll take, but I think he's going to be enshrined in Toronto so long as he doesn't go crazy or fall off all of the cliffs in rapid succession. Fleury is so damn likable and comes with so many narratives for people to write about, that it's just going to wear people down eventually. Nobody fights for Tom Barrasso because nobody in the press likes Tom Barrasso...Fleury's giggly charm is the antithesis of that and you have to remember that the people who vote for this are human beings who absolutely will be biased in favor of those they like over those they don't (see: Roger Clemens & Barry Bonds not being in the Baseball Hall of Fame despite having HoF credentials before steroids ever came near them). Also let's be clear...the standard to clear for a goalie to make the Hall of Fame is not that huge. If Rogie Vachon and Grant Fuhr got in as compilers, then the guy who will likely retire 2nd or 3rd all-time in wins will get in. The only thing his career really doesn't have is a Vezina...but I think his wins will be so far ahead of his comparables that it's just not going to matter in the end.

Honestly it's Vachon's induction that made me go from seeing this as a laughable concept to an inevitability. Vachon's HoF credentials basically boiled down to an absurd Vezina split on a stupidly loaded late 60s Habs team while splitting time with a Hall of Famer and then having a respectable career starting for nearly a decade and a half with a couple standout years (and one legitimately great one)...but all of his hardware came while splitting time with Gump Worsley. Tom Barrasso has a better career profile than Vachon did with more awards, award finalists, wins, etc. Hell, Vachon means opened the doors for guys like Barrasso & Mike Vernon to have legitimate arguments now...and it's hard to argue that Fleury is below either of those guys at this point in time. Fleury could find himself in the top 5 in all-time wins by the All-Star break. At that point it's more than simple compiling, it's lapping his comparables.

Here's a fun game. Let's play guess the goalie:
Goalie A: 551-315-131, 2.54, .910sv%
Goalie B: 439-250-77, 2.56, .913sv%
Goalie C: 489-392-124, 2.52, .919sv%
Goalie D: 449-298-93, 2.41, .918sv%
Goalie E: 401-216-95, 2.49, .905sv%
Goalie F: 533-304-93, 2.56, .913sv%

You'd be crazy to take any of them other than Goalie A in reality, which is why goalie statistics are so hard to evaluate in a vacuum. That's Patrick Roy, Marc-Andre Fleury, Roberto Luongo, Henrik Lundqvist, Chris Osgood, & Fleury again with 3 career average seasons added on. Luongo & Lundqvist are Hall of Famers without Cups and Fleury is far more similar to them stat-wise than the old Osgood comparable.



This took way too long to say nothing matters and the 1-2 punch of accumulating enough stats and being immensely likable means he's going to be a Hall of Famer regardless if he ever had a single Hall of Fame caliber season for us.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Damn. Pretty terrific breakdown, Big.

 

[MartinS82]

This took way too long to say nothing matters and the 1-2 punch of accumulating enough stats and being immensely likable means he's going to be a Hall of Famer regardless if he ever had a single Hall of Fame caliber season for us.

Agreed...and then when see what the Hall of Fame selection committee basis their votes on:

"Playing ability, sportsmanship, character and contributions to his or her team or teams and to the game of hockey in general."

It seems like he checks off all the latter boxes quite easily, and the "playing ability" can be checked off with his win total. They'll find a way to get him in there.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Very good post

I've talked before how MAF failed to adapt his style to the changing of the NHL, Brodeuer definitely adapted quite well.

Remember Brodeur arrived as a "stand up" goalie while the league was immersed in the butterfly. There was no other goalie like his hybrid method: going back and forth with stand up and butterfly techniques . The league also created a rule for him and his puckhandling prowess- that alone should tell you he's HOF worthy

Now add he played 70+ games a season for like a decade +.

 

[Fogel]

Big, you aren't accounting for historical or league context. Using hockey-reference, I took a look at one of their stats. GA%- compares the goalies goals allowed % compared to league goal allowed % with 100 being league average and smaller numbers being better than the league average. The career numbers for the 5 goalies you took a look at are below:

Roy: 86
Fleury: 98
Luongo: 92
Lundqvist: 91
Osgood: 101

I think it complements conventional wisdom that Roy was much better than the league and Luongo and Lundqvist were a decent bit better than the league. I don't think it is coincidence that it has MAF and Osgood as roughly league average. Personally, I view MAF as an accumulator of wins who benefited from a very good team and shouldn't get in. I think of him as the hockey equivalent of a Jack Morris in Baseball and I think he will have a similar path: he will get in eventually because of the gaudy win total and the Stanley Cups.

 

[HandshakeLine]

But should Vachon be in the HHOF?

 

[cassius]

Hahah. No chance. Zero %

Hasn’t won the Vezina - or even come close to winning one

It’s delusional to think that a guy who never was even ranked best in his position for a single year belongs in the HOF

Not to mention his continual choke jobs during the playoffs. I’ve watched a lot of sports over the years and Fleury ranks among the top choke artists in all of sports. The guy folds like a bad hand during the critical moments.. the anti Murray if you will

Fleury got replaced by old man Vokouj because he couldn’t get it done.. and then he got replaced by Murray, who led us to glory

Everyone here romanticizes Fleury, but the guy just couldn’t ever get things done

 

[edog37]

# 1: I’ve hated MAF since we traded up to draft him.

# 2: IMO MAF was one of the weaker links on this team and a huge reason for the lack of success from 2012 - 2014.

# 3: MAF had a great playoff in 2008 and a very solid playoff in 2009. He had a very good Caps series in 2017. Combining that with his wins record in the Penguins era he clearly was not HOF worthy.

# 4: Enter his exit and career with Vegas. He’s shown that maybe part of the issue with his goaltending in the Penguins system was partially the system.

# 5: He was basically reason # 1: for the Vegas finals run.

Five career SCF appearances (2 as a back up). Likely finished in the top five and potential top three for wins if Vegas continues to be solid.

Great ****ing guy. Never heard a bad word said about him and his character off and on the ice is legitimately untouched in the NHL.

So what do you think? I think his personality combined with his accolades (despite the lack of awards) will result in him being a HOFer. Do not agree with it, but can’t see how it’ll go another way.

The Hall of Fame has no real set guidelines for selection (basically media whims), but in truth, I don't think he's anything more than above avg goalie who really never lived up to a #1 overall selection. He's really only won one Cup & underachieved (or did not play) in the other appearances. Didn't really do anything to change the way the position was played. Relied heavily on talent alone vs good mechanics. Had numerous mental meltdowns going back to Junior play. Yes, great locker room guy, but if I had to choose between him & Barrasso, it's Barrasso every day

 

[edog37]

Should Chris Osgood be in the HOF?

No. Neither should Fleury.

 

[edog37]

He'll get in because of career win totals and finals/cup runs.

No he won't. He hasn't won any major hardware.

 

[edog37]

I'm not sure what's more sad, the fact that people actively hate him and hate people that love a guy that was the consummate professional his entire tenure for the team, or that he's actually a good goalie and you're allowed to let people be homers of his and also dislike him with admitting he's a good goalie that deserves what he's earned.

I hope he gets in the HHOF when his career is over, **** all these dip **** haters.

Just because some of us view Fleury with less than rose colored glasses doesn't mean we hate the guy. We just see him for what he is. He's an above avg to good goalie, but not even close to being a HoFer. Teams have had a lot of good locker room guys (see Max Talbot), but are we ready to canonize him for it as well?

 

[billybudd]

It certainly hasn't hurt, but I think Flower probably needs a ring with Vegas (or another team that isn't Pittsburgh), a Conn Smythe, a Vezina or a Hart to make it into the Hall of Fame. The people who vote for this thing still haven't forgotten the World Juniors, by the way, so he has to be a lock. He can't be on the bubble and expect to make it just on career wins.