Has MAF’s Vegas career solidified his HOF status?

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

He gets in no question. People here are too jaded by the early 2010's to give him the credit he deserves but you cant keep a top 3 goalie in wins out of the HHOF especially with the Cups.

It's not a coincidence that his game went to shit as soon ad DB put in his system and his game magically got better once Db was fired.

 

[Ginormousthumbs]

It’s a no from me, dawg.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

No. Osgood won't end up top 5 in all time wins. And the Wings were generally a better surrounding team over his tenure than MAF's teams. Plus, Vegas.

Just look at Manny Lagace's numbers as well. The Wings would win with pretty much anyone until Lidstrom finally said peace out, then they turned straight to shit.

 

[Shwag33]

Just look at Manny Lagace's numbers as well. The Wings would win with pretty much anyone until Lidstrom finally said peace out, then they turned straight to ****.

I mean MAF's backup numbers were always right in line with his or better, except for 2 seasons.

Fleury routinely outplayed by backups - Sportsnet.ca

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

They overexposed goalie to cross crease passes and odd man scenarios trying to cheat up ice... they literally relied on his athleticism to make plays and it eroded his fundamentals... its a pretty simple cause and effect... the team plays more conservative in front of him and his numbers shoot up... the team plays irresponsibly and he starts cheating off the post and playing panicked horrible hockey...

Its a cause and effect that played out as expected when he was traded to a defense-first type team.

Put patrick Roy in back of Bylsmas teams and he would have thrown a fit and murdered someone

Oh I see the ghost of DB was obviously present when LV was playing Washington then, pardon my ignorance

Why can't people admit that MAF is a guy who has some MAJOR peaks and valleys in his game, regardless of who the coach is?

 

[ziggyjoe212]

He was never elite, or even an all star, and has arguably the worst playoff stats in the history of the league. However, he is on pace to finish top 3 in career wins in the history of the league. It will be hard to keep him out with such a major accomplishment.

 

[Gurglesons]

Oh I see the ghost of DB was obviously present when LV was playing Washington then, pardon my ignorance

Why can't people admit that MAF is a guy who has some MAJOR peaks and valleys in his game, regardless of who the coach is?

I actually listen to an interest talk on the PDOcast about how Washington was passing up better scoring chances to make MAF go bar to bar in that finals.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Lots of goalies have warts, so it’s hard to think of goalies in the modern era who were so fundamental to their team’s success like the skaters in the HHOF. You have guys like Dryden and Fuhr on massive powerhouse teams during the weak expansion era, you’ve got guys like Belfour who exploited equipment and rules loopholes during the deadpuck era, and you’ve individual talents like Hašek.

I don’t know if MAF will make it, but I don’t think theres’s any goalie in the HHOF without noticeable flaws in their game.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

As I said in the original post. With just his career here I don’t think he does. He’s been utterly fantastic for Vegas and carried them to a Final though.

In my personal HHOF, MAF has no chance. In the current environment of “being a nice guy” and having a bunch of wins and being successful team wise I don’t see how he isn’t.

That’s what I hate the most about the cult of MAF. He’s a nice guy, so what? Ilya Bryzgalov is way more charming. Maybe he should get in?

Fleury piles up a lot of wins when it doesn’t matter. When it does, he’s laughably bad. He has been his entire career. That was the number one knock on him in his draft year, and he hasn't fixed it. There are multiple playoff series he played so horrendously, he’s entirely responsible for the exit. Columbus 2014 alone should prevent him from ever being considered.

But if he does make it to the HHOF, I look forward to the beach ball exhibit.

 

[HandshakeLine]

If we want to talk about goalies in the HHOF who had bouts of lackluster-to-awful play in the post-season, why aren't we talking about Belfour, for example? Hell, Billy Smith could be even worse (he could also be brilliant) if you got into his head, but he played for those steamroller Islanders teams who just plain dismantled everyone 8-5, so when he had a bad game, Bossy just scored 4 and Smith broke someone's ankles.

The HHOF, as much as we want to think it has any real weighting or evaluation process, isn't really about clear-eyed statistical analysis, it's about influence on the broader hockey world, and there might be an argument for MAF regarding that, if his play keeps up in Vegas, he gets a few individual awards, or he wins another Cup.

 

[HandshakeLine]

As a follow-up, who is the best modern goalie in the HHOF? And why? Is it Brodeur with his oversized pads and deadpuck rules? Is it Roy, who was arguably the most revolutionary, or Hašek, who might have had the most pure athletic talent? Or do you go with Fuhr/Smith for winning the most Cups?

The point I'm trying to make here is that goalies have, arguably, the hardest criterea to get into the hall, and at the same time, they play a position that is the most dependent on team performance. And to make matters worse, their records are the most severely impacted by a momentary lapse in concentration, which skaters do not find reflected in their HHOF selection criteria. Nobody's talking about denying Bourque a HHOF berth, when Mario makes him look stupid, you know?

(And just to be absolutely clear, I don't think there's anyway MAF makes a first ballot HHOF, and it's arguable if he'll make any subsequent just on his role as a player, but if he does go on to have a career in the league or hockey world post-retirement, then his odds of getting in go up extraordinarily.)

 

[Pens1566]

I think people pointing to lack of vezina votes should go and look at some of the guys that actually did get votes during MAF's career. Oooof, some real gems in there. Cristobal Huet for HoF!!! Or better yet, Anti Niemi.

There's probably 2-3 seasons where you could argue he deserved better and guys like Hammond, Talbot got votes.

 

[heysmilinstrange]

I think people pointing to lack of vezina votes should go and look at some of the guys that actually did get votes during MAF's career. Oooof, some real gems in there. Cristobal Huet for HoF!!! Or better yet, Anti Niemi.

There's probably 2-3 seasons where you could argue he deserved better and guys like Hammond, Talbot got votes.

I assume they were nominated for the Vezina because they had Vezina-quality stats. Fleury wasn't nominated those seasons ... because he didn't play as well as they did.

 

[Gurglesons]

That’s what I hate the most about the cult of MAF. He’s a nice guy, so what? Ilya Bryzgalov is way more charming. Maybe he should get in?

Fleury piles up a lot of wins when it doesn’t matter. When it does, he’s laughably bad. He has been his entire career. That was the number one knock on him in his draft year, and he hasn't fixed it. There are multiple playoff series he played so horrendously, he’s entirely responsible for the exit. Columbus 2014 alone should prevent him from ever being considered.

But if he does make it to the HHOF, I look forward to the beach ball exhibit.

I mean, the opposite is why Barrasso isn’t in.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I mean, the opposite is why Barrasso isn’t in.

There's so few goalies in the HHOF that lots of really excellent goalies are off the list, Barrasso included. (And I really don't get why Vachon was voted in a few years ago.) That's an addendum to my secondary point- because the criterea for goalies is so much tighter (and variable) than it is for skaters, you get some weird absences there, like Barrasso who has all the individual hardware (and a seemingly unbreakable league-record in assists!) seemingly necessary, plus two B2B cup rings.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think people pointing to lack of vezina votes should go and look at some of the guys that actually did get votes during MAF's career. Oooof, some real gems in there. Cristobal Huet for HoF!!! Or better yet, Anti Niemi.

There's probably 2-3 seasons where you could argue he deserved better and guys like Hammond, Talbot got votes.

Yeah, I think the Vezina is one of the worst individual awards, in terms of pure merit. Lots of guys with terrible careers had one really statistically great season on a defensively oriented club and came away with a nod or two. Jim Carey, Kölzig, Lundqvist, Bob, Kiprusoff are all Vezina alumni.

For all people harp on Letang not getting a Norris, it seems much much harder to win a Norris than it is to win a Vezina.

 

[K Fleur]

Brodeur was an incredible goaltender and it does a real disservice to describe him as a goalie with “big pads and DPE rules”.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Brodeur was an incredible goaltender and it does a real disservice to remember him as a goalie with “big pads and DPE rules”.

Roy was way more innovative and had a much larger effect on the game. Brodeur was a positional goalie trapped in a crash pad. I'd feel bad for him, but it's not like he's going to feel the weight of my scorn underneath all that padding.

 

[K Fleur]

Roy was way more innovative and had a much larger effect on the game. Brodeur was a positional goalie trapped in a crash pad.

I mean Brodeur’s puck handling/moving skills were so dominant they added a trapezoid to limit them.

I’d say that’s had a decent effect on the game.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I assume they were nominated for the Vezina because they had Vezina-quality stats. Fleury wasn't nominated those seasons ... because he didn't play as well as they did.

But goalie stats are such a poor metric of anything that it's sort of a cop-out argument. Does anyone think Tukka Rask was the best goalie in the league for a hot minute because he's a phenomenal goalie, or because he was in the right place at the right time and got into a zone?

 

[HandshakeLine]

I mean Brodeur’s puck handling/moving skills were so dominant they added a trapezoid to limit them.

I’d say that’s had a decent effect on the game.

That I'll grant. I'm just not a Brodeur fan for many many reasons, the least of which is how much I hated those Devils' squads.

So, keep him in the mix.

 

[Andy99]

But goalie stats are such a poor metric of anything that it's sort of a cop-out argument. Does anyone think Tukka Rask was the best goalie in the league for a hot minute because he's a phenomenal goalie, or because he was in the right place at the right time and got into a zone?

You know that’s the argument for not paying Murray, don’t you? Just substitute the name MM in that sentence...

 

[K Fleur]

I mean, the opposite is why Barrasso isn’t in.

It is kinda funny that Barrasso definitely deserves to be in but probably never will be because he was such an asshole, while Fleury does not deserve to be in but probably will be because everybody likes him.

 

[PensPlz]

It's the Hall of Fame. Not the Hall of the Super-Elite Only. The word Fame is pretty open to interpretation. And I would argue that MAF is beyond famous for his ability to carry his team in the regular season (often a slumping team) and crank out wins better than most goalies in the past decade+.

If you think that's not important, without Fleury doing his regular thing under Mike Johnston keeping us in retooling-mode, we could have easily fell to rebuilding and never made the trade for Hagelin that was the first domino on the way to back-to-back.

I think he has more than just a good shot of making the HoF, and he deserves it. He has a great story.

 

[Turin]

Probably. His work on that last PK was very 2012-esque though.