Has MAF’s Vegas career solidified his HOF status?

Discussion in 'Pittsburgh Penguins' started by pixiesfanyo, Aug 18, 2019.

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MAF: HOF?

  1. Yes

    59.2%
  2. No

    30.3%
  3. Why?

    10.5%
  1. K Fleur

    K Fleur Stop Trying To Be God

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    I didn’t like those Devils teams either, but a big reason why was because of how awesome Brodeur was. Also since we’re talking about them... **** Scott Stevens.
     
  2. Dennis Reynolds

    Dennis Reynolds I have to have my tools!

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    I just looked at the list. There aren't a lot of goaltenders in the HHOF, and MAF is much closer to CuJo than he is to the names on that list. I also think Ed Belfour is odd inclusion. Really sticks out to me.

    But when I say MAF shouldn’t get in, it’s that he shouldn’t get in on his own merit, not in comparison to other goaltenders. When the games matter, he is more likely to play poorly than he is to up his game, and that’s all there is to it for me.
     
  3. K Fleur

    K Fleur Stop Trying To Be God

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    MAF rose to the occasion in big games a couple times. Game 7 against the Caps in ‘17 and games 6 & 7 against Detroit in ‘09. More often than not though he was straight up ass when it mattered most in the playoffs.
     
  4. Pens1566

    Pens1566 Registered User

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    Wasn't speaking specifically about finalists (which aren't really nominations). Just that there's some pretty lackluster guys that are listed in the vote totals while MAF is putting up 2.3 and .920 with 10 shutouts. There's some reputation (or lack thereof) bias involved.
     
  5. K Fleur

    K Fleur Stop Trying To Be God

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    I don’t know any other fan base that could love such a middle of the pack goalie as much as this one does.

    Maybe Detroit with Osgood, but I don’t see their fans get full on triggered at the sight of criticism the way this fan base does with Yinzer Jesus.
     
  6. BlindWillyMcHurt

    BlindWillyMcHurt ti kallisti

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    How in the world was Fleury a key reason they won in 09? 08 I can buy... he was legitimately great. 09 was 100% Sid and Geno (historic numbers) with a side of Staal/support players. Fleury had some games, no doubt. But I'd place him kind of down the list on key reasons they won in 09. Like... I'll listen if I'm wrong. It was ten years ago... I guess things can go a bit hazy in that time but that's not at all the way I remember it.
     
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  7. Ugene Malkin

    Ugene Malkin Wanna play?

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    Brodeur was way more innovated than just dropping to the butterfly position. Brodeur made a lot of plays look easy because he was in the right position for a particular play more than most I've ever seen. If it required leaving the crease to take away as much of the net as possible, he did that. If he needed to stay back in the net in the butterfly, he did that as well. If the play required to stand up and hug the post, he did that as well. He's made the secondary saves with the best of them. He helped bring about the trapezoid for playing the puck behind the net.

    Brodeur did all, and used all the tools a goalie can have, and did them all well.

    He's number 1 in my book hands down. I remember those years and always wished the Pens had him. Roy played the percentages, Brodeur played the position.
     
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  8. Pens1566

    Pens1566 Registered User

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    Probably has something to do with Gm 7 vs Caps and Gm 6/7 vs DET.
     
  9. BlindWillyMcHurt

    BlindWillyMcHurt ti kallisti

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    Goaltending is such a weird position that I'm not at all confident in trying to ascertain "all time bests." But to me it's all about Roy and Hasek. The two best I've personally seen.

    I won't say Brodeur isn't "great." He is. But it's very difficult for me to separate him from those extremely suffocating, systems-oriented, lock-step Devils teams. Like watching ****ing grass grow. I definitely believe he would have been great regardless but I suppose the question is how great. Those teams around him were built around him. He was the Devils. The other two guys I mentioned can't really say the same, at least for chunks of their careers.

    Like I said... he had his games. I won't take that away.

    But to me the difference is in 08 he had series of rock solid work. Just like Murray has at times in his short tenure.

    With the kind of numbers and sheer effort Sid and Geno put up. With as much of a horse as Staal was and considering how many role players stepped their game up to a different level and kept it there all playoffs... I just can't really put Fleury in the "key" reasons for 09.
     
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  10. HandshakeLin

    HandshakeLin Now brought to you in glorious Shaw-Scope!

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    You think I give a ****?
     
  11. Pens1566

    Pens1566 Registered User

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    For me, in '09, there were a handful of individual plays that turned games. One was Staal's SHG in gm3(?). The other 2 were MAF stopping Ovechkin on a breakaway early in gm7, and then the Lidstrom save.
     
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  12. pixiesfanyo

    pixiesfanyo Registered User

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    Malkin
    Crosby
    Gonchar

    Not really sure who else you have above those three that showed up every series in our wins as well as MAF.

    Maybe Scuderi - Gill and Talbot?
     
  13. Andy99

    Andy99 Registered User

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    Never said you did...I just want to hear from you when Murray requests $8 mil a year next year and people on here are clamoring to pay him because he’s a “top tier” goalie who’s won two Cups and was great the last half of the 2018-19 season...
     
  14. Riikolas Revenge

    Riikolas Revenge Registered User

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    Currently, for me it's a "no", but I had to think about it. If we look at his Cups then in 2009 he was pretty bad and mostly got carried. In 2016 he played in 2 games. In 2017 he played brilliantly but was replaced by Murray. So he's never really put a team on his back and sealed the deal. He had a lot of help.

    HOWEVER, one thing that's never talked about is his unreal 2008 playoffs. .933 over 20 games. It's quite baffling that we ended up winning it in 2009 with him a .908. :confused:. His performance in 2018 is notable as well, getting eliminated by the Caps with a .927.

    Sadly, I can't ignore the fact that he finished a playoffs <.910 eight different times. He's a career .911 in the post-season. That's not good enough for me.

    So that's playoffs. But what about the regular season? Well, he's never won a Vezina. .913 over his career. He got close in 2017-18 but was a little short in GP. Several .920+ seasons. No shortage of down years either though.

    I don't believe in measuring a goalie with wins. It's a team stat, largely dependent on good fortune with management and the roster. That being said, I will say that Fleury was a brilliant closer here. He was clutch in OT's and shootouts and there's few goalies you'd want more when you're up a goal with 2 minutes left. However, one could argue that making the games that close in the first place were often avoidable. So it's a mixed bag.

    I like to look at long term consistency instead of peaks in a graph when it comes to goalies. I think of it as an enormous array of shots faced from his first game in his rookie year to his most recent start. His job was to stop as many as possible. He did well but not enough for me. He's not in the same league as Lundqvist and Luongo.

    Maybe he's not done yet. Older goalies have shocked us before.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
  15. Dennis Reynolds

    Dennis Reynolds I have to have my tools!

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    Goaltenders who have 10 other goaltenders performing better than them every year throughout their careers don't make the HHOF.
     
  16. HandshakeLin

    HandshakeLin Now brought to you in glorious Shaw-Scope!

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    Forgive me, but what on earth are you on about? What fans or management or anyone wants is not any of my concern or anything I pretend to have any control over.
     
  17. ZeroPucksGiven

    ZeroPucksGiven Registered User

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    Very good post

    I've talked before how MAF failed to adapt his style to the changing of the NHL, Brodeuer definitely adapted quite well.

    Remember Brodeur arrived as a "stand up" goalie while the league was immersed in the butterfly. There was no other goalie like his hybrid method: going back and forth with stand up and butterfly techniques . The league also created a rule for him and his puckhandling prowess- that alone should tell you he's HOF worthy
     
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  18. BlindWillyMcHurt

    BlindWillyMcHurt ti kallisti

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    I have to at least partially agree re: that Lidstrom save. That was like... a career defining moment for Fleury and he came through.

    I still think Crosby and Malkin putting up nearly 70 points and 30 goals between just the two of them was like... 75% of the job done. But that save was absolutely crucial and all those shiny stats and heavy lifting could have potentially been all for naught had he not stopped that shot from a guy who almost always puts those chances away.
     
  19. K Fleur

    K Fleur Stop Trying To Be God

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    Fleury’s 09 run was fine. Nothing special but he made big saves when the team needed him to.

    He posted only a 90.8% save percentage but save percentage, despite become the “end all be all” of goaltender statistics, is a stat that is often not looked at with proper context.
     
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  20. HandshakeLin

    HandshakeLin Now brought to you in glorious Shaw-Scope!

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    Again, I came across a little cavalier on Brodeur, because of purely personal (and I'll admit it, petty :laugh:) reasons. So, I'd like to walk that back a bit and clarify.

    I look at Brodeur as an evolution of the position-- he had Barrasso's puck handling skills, he had solid positioning, he had the butterfly (already popularized by Roy), he took advantage of the rules and regulations. There's no doubt he belongs in the HHOF, he's arguably as complete a goalie as you can get. But again, the individual awards or stats for Brodeur are weird, which goes back to my earlier points on how hard it is to evaluate goalies based on those things: his Vezina wins are all in years after the Devils' peak, he sometimes had years with a save percentages that any other goalie would be crucified for here (I mean, he posted a .906 on that Cup-winning Devils squad in 2000, for example), he was complicated to play with, and he played his best seasons on inferior teams. If you were looking at Brodeur strictly from the areas that fans here are evaluating goalies, you'd really have to question why he's in the hall.

    So, why is Brodeur in the hall? Because his play and his influence aren't reflected in the stats, per se, or even the awards.
     
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  21. HandshakeLin

    HandshakeLin Now brought to you in glorious Shaw-Scope!

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    Agreed 100%. SAV is a weird stat that doesn't really take into account a lot of factors, as I was talking about a bit above. Unfortunately, that seems to be a lot of what drives conversations about Vezinas and goalies these days.
     
  22. ziggyjoe212

    ziggyjoe212 Registered User

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    This is the first time I've seen anyone try to bash Brodeur due to oversized pads. From what I recall, he has the smallest pads out of anyone from the dead puck era. Usually the case against Brodeur is that he spent his entire career insulated behind a defensive minded trapping team that was the epitome of the dead puck era style.

    As far as big pads go, you must be thinking of Luongo and Giguere. In fact, I would argue Roy's pads were significantly bigger than Brodeur's.
     
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  23. K Fleur

    K Fleur Stop Trying To Be God

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    The worst oversized pad offender was Garth Snow.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019 at 1:38 PM
  24. HandshakeLin

    HandshakeLin Now brought to you in glorious Shaw-Scope!

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    I was basically just hating on Brodeur, though pretty much everyone's pads were big then. :laugh: I'll cop to it.

    Giguere was certainly one of the worst offenders in that regard, though. And UGH, Garth Snow. Thanks @K Fleur :laugh:

    But there is a good conversation to be had in how those equipment and play rules in the deadpuck era effected the stats- look at how low Brodeur's save percentage is during those years. Is it because Brodeur was a bad goalie? Of course not. But I think we can make an argument that the defensive techniques of the dead puck era made it incredibly difficult to get shots on net (at its lowest, 27.3 per game average, compared to 31ish for the last few seasons), unless they were very good scoring chances, so the save percentages are correspondingly lower too. We're kind of handicapped with what stats we have recorded and the lack of availability of all the games on tape, though, so I don't know if we can ever definitively answer that question. I just think it's worth while to discuss it.

    It's wild to me that the average SV% was like .885 during the beginnings of the dead puck era and it's now .910. That's a huge difference in the amount of shots that get saved in a very short amount of time.
     
  25. BlindWillyMcHurt

    BlindWillyMcHurt ti kallisti

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    Was Snow the one that actually had like a little drop down panel between his pads for a minute?

    **** was getting ridiculous there for a while.
     

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