Speculation: Hammond is a flash in the pan.

[Burrowsaurus]

To the people thinking Anderson has been God-like mode this year


55 Goalies who played more than 690 minutes this season (Hammond has 696 mins) :

Low-Danger Save Percentage

Anderson is 20th
Hammond is 52th
Bishop is 13th

Medium-Danger Save Percentage

Anderson is 44th
Hammond is 55th
Bishop is 5th

High-Danger Save Percentage

Anderson is 38th
Hammond is 25th
Bishop is 24th


Anderson is better at making routine stops. Hammond is better at making tough saves, Bishop is better at stopping medium saves

----------

Best Andy season with the Sens (2012-13, although he played only 1414 minutes). I kept 690 minutes, so out of 52 goalies :

Low-Danger Save Percentage : 2nd
Medium-Danger Save Percentage : 10th
High-Danger Save Percentage : 13th





Yup. No chance that this should be an option. Geographically stuck between the 2 biggest markets



I have never been super high on Hammond. I mean, he can have a short back-up career but never thought he had starter potential, even though he did great last year. I don't think he can ever get closer to that "glory" again.



Gave up a 2nd, got Conacher and a 4th. Conacher was worth a lot more than a 2nd AT THE TIME OF THE TRADE, he was a Calder candidate after being a star and PPG player in the AHL. Don't let hindsight screw your judgment

Again. Not hindsight. At the time of the trade. A LOT of people questions conacher a production.

Every time some was correct and it was against the general belief it's always "you're using hindsight". No. Sometimes people are just right. Maybe it's because of some sort of knowledge about the situation. Or luck.
In this situation. I probably got lucky. Bishop went on to be a star. And conacher was a dud. Even I thought conacher would be better though

 

[OgieO]

Those stats are interesting in that our defensive system "by design" is supposed to limit high danger chances and encourage low danger ones. The execution is awful, but that's the intent of it.

Too bad we weren't able to execute better.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Hammond is awful. In a perfect world we should have kept Lehner and Bishop, let them platoon for a few seasons, traded Anderson for a big haul and then traded Lehner or Bishop. Now we are stuck with a goalie with only a couple top seasons left in him and a terrible back-up. By the time we fix the defense our goalie situation is going to be crap.

So Matt O'Connor is a bust??

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Again. Not hindsight. At the time of the trade. A LOT of people questions conacher a production.

Every time some was correct and it was against the general belief it's always "you're using hindsight". No. Sometimes people are just right. Maybe it's because of some sort of knowledge about the situation. Or luck.
In this situation. I probably got lucky. Bishop went on to be a star. And conacher was a dud. Even I thought conacher would be better though

I hated the return on the Bishop trade from the instant it was announced, but was shouted down by all the statistics don't lie crowd.

However at the time of the trade Bishop wasn't an asset that was going to return a top player or even one with huge potential.

People tend to forget Bishop came to Ottawa for a 2nd round pick and his performance in Ottawa wasn't the stuff of legends.

 

[TheSenator]

What's with certain teams and ruining their goaltending situations?

Vancouver has luongo and Schneider. Gets rid of both?

Sens have Bishop and lehner. Gets rid of both?

Shouldn't they have picked one and stuck with it?

To top it off we were a young, rebuilding team and we kept the oldest goalie possible. There's no way Anderson will still be in his prime when this teams ready to make a splash in the post-season.

Meanwhile Bishop became an all-star while Lehner's been fairly solid in the handful of games he's played this year....

Its unbelievable how poorly management handled this one.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I hated the return on the Bishop trade from the instant it was announced, but was shouted down by all the statistics don't lie crowd.

However at the time of the trade Bishop wasn't an asset that was going to return a top player or even one with huge potential.

People tend to forget Bishop came to Ottawa for a 2nd round pick and his performance in Ottawa wasn't the stuff of legends.

I thought bishop was playing well for us. Well enough where I could consider trading Andy for a better return and rocking bishop lehner for the next few years. And around this exact time. Trade one of them. And at least have a guy that looks like he's going to hold up until o Connor is ready

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Those stats are interesting in that our defensive system "by design" is supposed to limit high danger chances and encourage low danger ones. The execution is awful, but that's the intent of it.

Too bad we weren't able to execute better.

The Sens defensive system isn't designed to limit high quality chances off the rush, however if played properly with the right personnel should reduce the number of 2nd and 3rd opportunities.

It is also a system that requires the D to be effective in boxing out and winning the physical battles necessary to gain possession after the initial shot.

However due to some of the individual player weaknesses, the forwards are dropping down too low in the D-zone to help out and that is creating coverage mistakes and system breakdowns.

Fact is the Sens D isn't really equipped to play this system effectively and quite possibly there isn't a system that can shelter them from their lack of skill, quickness, or physical strength.

To be fair the number turnovers, bad plays, and misses shots by the forwards in the neutral/offensive zones will cause this or any defensive system to fail.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

I thought bishop was playing well for us. Well enough where I could consider trading Andy for a better return and rocking bishop lehner for the next few years. And around this exact time. Trade one of them. And at least have a guy that looks like he's going to hold up until o Connor is ready

Bishop played ok, in 13 games, 2.45 GA, 8 - 5 W/L record, and .922 SA%.
Anderson played 24 games, 1.69 GA, 12 - 9 W/L record and .941 SA%.
Lehner played 36 games, 3.06 GA, 12- 15 W/L record and .913 SA%.

While Bishop's stats were better than Lehner's, Andy outperformed him by a wide margin and Lehner was 5 years younger with more NHL experience.

So IMO the decision was based on what was best for Lehner's development, being a backup to Anderson and playing selected opponents or being a 1A/B with Bishop.

Now without the benefit of hindsight I believe trading Bishop was the right choice.

I also think Bishop's numbers wouldn't look anywhere near as good if he was playing in Ottawa instead of Tampa.

 

[OgieO]

The Sens defensive system isn't designed to limit high quality chances off the rush, however if played properly with the right personnel should reduce the number of 2nd and 3rd opportunities.

It is also a system that requires the D to be effective in boxing out and winning the physical battles necessary to gain possession after the initial shot.

However due to some of the individual player weaknesses, the forwards are dropping down too low in the D-zone to help out and that is creating coverage mistakes and system breakdowns.

Fact is the Sens D isn't really equipped to play this system effectively and quite possibly there isn't a system that can shelter them from their lack of skill, quickness, or physical strength.

To be fair the number turnovers, bad plays, and misses shots by the forwards in the neutral/offensive zones will cause this or any defensive system to fail.

No, you're right that its not designed to eliminate off the rush but outside of a few very defensive systems, no base system really does. You and I agree - I think you make solid points above. Our system calls for physical dmen, capable of winning battles in teh corners and keeping the play outside "home plate" as best we can. Sometimes I speculate that we WANT shots from the outside and when we play well, we seems to allow those and limit the closer chances - but we haven't played well for a while now.

All we seem to want from most of our D (EK is the anomaly but a generational talent) is protect the box (boxing out, blocking shots, funneling traffic to perimeter) and make the first pass.

That's great in theory but I think it sucks as a design, imo. I prefer to use physicality, quickness and active sticks to separate the opposition from pucks and then transition quickly. Yes, keep them wide, but be active out there to re-gain possession just be sure to maintain proper position. I think passive systems are inherently flawed as they work against a players instincts, someone made a great point earlier about slowing down our feet with this system. I like the D to contribute offense as well, we don't ask that (again, EK is the outlier and not who I'm talking about).

Not sure if its supposed to be that passive or if we just don't have the players to execute as you suggested. So I should probably qualify all my criticisms of the system. Either way, you're very correct in that its not working.

 

[pm88]

You know what cruel irony of all this is?

When we were a truly great team, I'm talking about those early 2000 years leading up to our peak with the Cup run goaltending was our one weak point...and now when we're an absolutely terrible team, goaltending is our strongest point. Anderson has been nothing but lights out for about 85-90% of his time in Ottawa. He's gone through some rough stretches of games, but I truly don't think any other goalie would fare much better. He's been getting hammered with shots year in and year out since he's got here. This team has no concept whatsoever about playing solid team defense and it hasn't changed in like 7-8 years now.

 

[Beville]

Yeah, not gonna lie I've always said Hammond was rubbish... Nice run but it was obvious it was a one off!

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Yeah, not gonna lie I've always said Hammond was rubbish... Nice run but it was obvious it was a one off!

Sens bought into the hype. I think they might be buying into the "smith might be a top 6 forward " hype as well. I think his next contract might reflect that.

 

[Xspyrit]

Ogie, concerning the "when we play well", it's true but the problem is we can't execute the system consistently well...

Last good example on when we did it well was against NYR the 24th January when we won 3-0

And even the 3-2 Loss against Buffalo the 26th January , but Andy was weak on the 3 goals.

Last 2 games were horrible though.

Again. Not hindsight. At the time of the trade. A LOT of people questions conacher a production. Every time some was correct and it was against the general belief it's always "you're using hindsight". No. Sometimes people are just right. Maybe it's because of some sort of knowledge about the situation. Or luck. In this situation. I probably got lucky. Bishop went on to be a star. And conacher was a dud. Even I thought conacher would be better though

Good job if you were right on that, but I am talking about the consensus... GMs, fans, analysts, most people were obviously thinking that Conacher had good value, he was in the race for the Calder and was also looking to be a top-6 forward in the making

Unfortunately for the Sens, he was more a flash in the pan... like Hammond (but that I predicted)

Also, what Holdurbreathe said :

However at the time of the trade Bishop wasn't an asset that was going to return a top player or even one with huge potential.

People tend to forget Bishop came to Ottawa for a 2nd round pick and his performance in Ottawa wasn't the stuff of legends.

This. Bishop couldn't have been traded for much more and we couldn't have kept the 3 goalies... So we traded Bishop instead of losing him to UFA.

Those stats are interesting in that our defensive system "by design" is supposed to limit high danger chances and encourage low danger ones. The execution is awful, but that's the intent of it.

Too bad we weren't able to execute better.

What I don't understand and frustrates me is that I thought that we were changing that with Cameron... Once he took over last season, Sens became a much better puck possession team and were more active instead of passive in the defensive zone, allowing less shots against. I think there is data in the old Cameron thread if someone wants to bring it up.

But why did we go back to MacLean days?

You know what cruel irony of all this is?

When we were a truly great team, I'm talking about those early 2000 years leading up to our peak with the Cup run goaltending was our one weak point...and now when we're an absolutely terrible team, goaltending is our strongest point. Anderson has been nothing but lights out for about 85-90% of his time in Ottawa. He's gone through some rough stretches of games, but I truly don't think any other goalie would fare much better. He's been getting hammered with shots year in and year out since he's got here. This team has no concept whatsoever about playing solid team defense and it hasn't changed in like 7-8 years now.

You're mistaken. Our goaltending is mediocre (average). Andy is solid but every team or almost every team has solid goalie(s)

Advanced data on lower, medium and higher chances/shots explains that

 

[pm88]

Ogie, concerning the "when we play well", it's true but the problem is we can't execute the system consistently well...

Last good example on when we did it well was against NYR the 24th January when we won 3-0

And even the 3-2 Loss against Buffalo the 26th January , but Andy was weak on the 3 goals.

Last 2 games were horrible though.



Good job if you were right on that, but I am talking about the consensus... GMs, fans, analysts, most people were obviously thinking that Conacher had good value, he was in the race for the Calder and was also looking to be a top-6 forward in the making

Unfortunately for the Sens, he was more a flash in the pan... like Hammond (but that I predicted)

Also, what Holdurbreathe said :



This. Bishop couldn't have been traded for much more and we couldn't have kept the 3 goalies... So we traded Bishop instead of losing him to UFA.



What I don't understand and frustrates me is that I thought that we were changing that with Cameron... Once he took over last season, Sens became a much better puck possession team and were more active instead of passive in the defensive zone, allowing less shots against. I think there is data in the old Cameron thread if someone wants to bring it up.

But why did we go back to MacLean days?



You're mistaken. Our goaltending is mediocre (average). Andy is solid but every team or almost every team has solid goalie(s)

Advanced data on lower, medium and higher chances/shots explains that

I mean I never really was one to get into technicalities and advanced statistics. I just go with what I see every time I watch games, and I know that Anderson has been saving our piss poor defense for a long time. he's had far, far more good games than bad games in his Ottawa career. Look at those New York and two Montreal series. The least 3 times we went to the playoffs he went save for save with two top 5 goalies in this league. This team is so mediocre in front of him at times that we would have either been swept or knocked out in 5 in those respective series with a lesser goalie.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

Bishop is a UFA in a couple of years.

Maybe we could sign him if Tampa opts to resign Vasilevskiy instead?

 

[mcnorth]

Bishop is a UFA in a couple of years.

Maybe we could sign him if Tampa opts to resign Vasilevskiy instead?

That kind of move would be nice if its a good fit when the time roles around.

Not signing UFAs severely handicaps an organization. I think we've too often traded for parts that could have been had on the market (Methot, for instance). You need to win those UFA recruiting battles. Look at what a boon Mac was. Great signing.

And before someone chimes in with, "when was Methot a UFA? blah bleh!" - I mean a Methot type who can play LD top four. There have been a dozen or so of those guys out there the last four or five years.

 

[JD1]

I mean I never really was one to get into technicalities and advanced statistics. I just go with what I see every time I watch games, and I know that Anderson has been saving our piss poor defense for a long time. he's had far, far more good games than bad games in his Ottawa career. Look at those New York and two Montreal series. The least 3 times we went to the playoffs he went save for save with two top 5 goalies in this league. This team is so mediocre in front of him at times that we would have either been swept or knocked out in 5 in those respective series with a lesser goalie.

I agree Anderson gave us some good years. that said he has not played well at any point this season for any sustained period of time. I think I was the first person on the board to post advanced stats on that and I got lit up for suggesting Anderson had not been playing well. we give up a lot of shots. but when your goalie is very below average stopping easy and medium difficulty shots then you have a problem.. we have a problem. look at the Eberle goal last night. Andy was on the crease line. if he is out two feet that puck doesn't go over his shoulder. bad goals against put you in bad situations and they can snowball from there. and right now we are in a blizzard.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Still too early to think Hammond can't be a decent back up considering how awful this team has been defensively this year.

 

[DylanSensFan]

Im glad lehner got traded, no one was complaining when hammond got us in the playoffs. Biggest mistake was trading bishop for the honey badger, had conacher panned out it may have been an alright trade but bishop has played lights out.

Hammond almost got us out of the playoffs as quickly as he got us in there. He had nothing to lose last season, until the playoffs. Now he has something to lose and he is losing.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Hammond almost got us out of the playoffs as quickly as he got us in there. He had nothing to lose last season, until the playoffs. Now he has something to lose and he is losing.

Anderson has 4 wins and an .844 save percentage over the last 11 games.

Considering they both put up good numbers prior to late December/January, are you saying that both the goalies just coincidentally started to suck at the same time and that this isn't a case of two goalies who'd be able to do their job (Anderson starter, Hammond backup) on a decent team are sucking because they are playing behind a tire fire?

 

[delchief]

Anderson has 4 wins and an .844 save percentage over the last 11 games.

Considering they both put up good numbers prior to late December/January, are you saying that both the goalies just coincidentally started to suck at the same time and that this isn't a case of two goalies who'd be able to do their job (Anderson starter, Hammond backup) on a decent team are sucking because they are playing behind a tire fire?

This....

 

[CanadianHockey]

Was against the decision to take Hammond over Lehner. Firmly believe he's not the issue with this team, however. We sorely miss MacArthur and lack depth on the backend - Ceci isn't capable of carrying a second pair and Wier and Cowen have failed to step up.

 

[Stylizer1]

I'm more mad at the flat out waiving of Conacher than anything really. Like, we gave him away for free, pretty much did. Could have traded him for scraps but at least it would have been something but nonononono, waived.

Nobody wanted him hence why he is not in the league anymore.

I thought it was a bad trade from the beginning.

 

[Stylizer1]

Hammond earned a contract from the Sens fair and square. 3 years was too much. 2 years at 1 million each would have been fair but Murray decides to give him a 3 year at 1.35m.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I'm more mad at the flat out waiving of Conacher than anything really. Like, we gave him away for free, pretty much did. Could have traded him for scraps but at least it would have been something but nonononono, waived.

Personally, I believe he could still be an NHLer. Dude has enough skill and determination to have carved out a career here. I think most teams were just too frighted by the severe diabetes he had (especially after seeing a couple of guys collapse during games the past few years. Yes, those heart issues are completely different, but the optics for a business are similar.)



Edit: As for Bishop, we also have to remember, the NHL was about to put a major crackdown on goalie gear - specifically the pads. That was supposed to effect the taller goalies a lot more than it ended up doing. You'd have to think that upcoming change was part of the reason the team was a little more willing to let him go.