Hall of Shame: Alex Mogilny Should be in HOF

[vadim sharifijanov]

Bondra received 18 career votes in thousands of opportunities, Tkachuk 13, should we care about this at all?

absolutely not. it's completely meaningless except as trivia, which is what i was trying to suggest when i called it "almost zero."

and i also might have been unclear when i said "they have exactly the same peak." i meant the exact same years of AST recognition ('95-'98), not that their peaks are identical in value.

but i don't see any daylight between tkachuk and bondra. bondra had fewer assists on average, okay. but bondra also killed penalties and was not a defensive liability. tkachuk was physical, but he was also a hothead and took a million stupid penalties at the worst times. i guess tkachuk had longevity on bondra, though.

as for mogilny, i would take any of mogilny's best five years (in order, '93, '96, '03, '92, '01) over all five of tkachuk's best (i guess, '94 to '99?)

but again, i really hated keith tkachuk and thought he was the biggest paper tiger of his era, all loud noises and low impact.

 

[Big Phil]

He was aloof. The guy kept to himself, almost like a Phil Kessel type. That can lead to a negative perception of the player.

yeah, but I just don't see that being the reason that contributes to it. Tom Barrasso? Yeah for sure. I think his personality has kept him out. But Mogilny isn't even borderline, not even with the Russian trailblazing thing.

 

[The Panther]

Mogilny should not be in the Hall of Fame.

A couple of 50-goal seasons (in a high-scoring era) and a lot of inconsistency does not buy a ticket to the Hall.

I mean, this is a guy who managed three 40-goal seasons in 16 injury-riddled years, while winning no important hardware. The one time he rode along with a Cup-team, he scored 4 goals in 23 games (the next year 5 in 25).

Did he have Hall of Fame-worthy talent? Yes. Was he a Hall of Fame-level performer? No.

 

[Max Quackenbush]

Sorry, the data doesn't support your negativity.

For example, in the 3 Years both Mogilny and Bure played on the same team in Vancouver, Mogilny had a total of 225 points and Bure had 158.

BTW: I remember Quinn stating Mogilny was the best player he ever coached. This would include several HHOF players from LA to Van to TO.

Mogilny is a HHOF player who should have been inducted already.

 

[seventieslord]

Sorry, the data doesn't support your negativity.

For example, in the 3 Years both Mogilny and Bure played on the same team in Vancouver, Mogilny had a total of 225 points and Bure had 158.

Mogilny's PPG was just 10% better than Bure's, and that was the worst three year period of Bure's career. So Mogilny was better than Bure at his worst. I'm not sure that's pertinent.

BTW: I remember Quinn stating Mogilny was the best player he ever coached. This would include several HHOF players from LA to Van to TO.

that can be taken in a lot of different ways. It's certainly not a comment on his accomplishments. Quinn coached many players who had much better careers, never mind more talented players like Leetch, Sundin and Bure.

Mogilny is a HHOF player who should have been inducted already.

He's a HHOF talent, but that's only the beginning of a HHOF case. You still need to accomplish something substantial with that talent.

The HHOF would have to greatly ease its criteria and allow about 7-8 other post-expansion wingers in order to justify including Mogilny.

 

[MaxV]

His biggest plus is career PPG, 38th all time, one spot lower then Gordie Howe.

http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/nhl-players-all-time-points-per-game-leaders.html

Obviously high scoring era helped, but there other great players from that same era who are lower.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i don't think bure or sundin more talented than mogilny. brian leetch, i could be convinced. marcel dionne yes.

 

[Plural]

i don't think bure or sundin more talented than mogilny. brian leetch, i could be convinced. marcel dionne yes.

I think Bure might have been. Sundin probably wasn't but he was such a consistent player that he's rather easily ahead of Mogilny, IMO.

 

[Big Phil]

BTW: I remember Quinn stating Mogilny was the best player he ever coached. This would include several HHOF players from LA to Van to TO.

Mogilny is a HHOF player who should have been inducted already.

Over Clarke? Dionne? Sundin? Bure? I don't see it. Now here is the question, COULD Mogilny have been as good? Yes. That's the irritating thing about him. He was about the most hit or miss player in NHL history. That is very frustrating and not something you associate with a HHOF player. As a Leaf fan he could have done more for us. 2002 and 2004 are years where I wondered aloud which Alex would show up. These were years that Toronto was a legit contender. In 2001 he was awful in the final against Colorado. Why? He had a 43 goal season that year. In some ways, him not playing well contributed to New Jersey losing.

 

[CHGoalie27]

I want to know why all the 70s players are in the hall and like half of the 80s 90s players that belong...there's so many omissions...the point of this, to me is revere all the greats. When I think of how damn great guys like Mogilny- a poor mans Bure, Kovalev the greatest hands ever, Brian Bellows most underrated hockey player ever (truly, if you think about it!) and they aren't in the hall, but like Larry Murphy who I wouldn't pick over anyone else I mention....even Bure just made it too recently, people prove all too often how they just refuse how great he actually was before the knee blew out on him.

On the other end of the ice, Curtis Joseph John Vanbiesbrouck and Mike Richter aren't in the hall of fame? **** that, I'll take them two over anyone after them not named Lundqvist.

Some people only want to hear some sort of a trophy count or something, but I remember quite clearly who were the standouts when I was a kid in the late 80s-90s. A lot gets lost in the stat and trophy count. Shame.

 

[Big Phil]

I want to know why all the 70s players are in the hall and like half of the 80s 90s players that belong...there's so many omissions...the point of this, to me is revere all the greats. When I think of how damn great guys like Mogilny- a poor mans Bure, Kovalev the greatest hands ever, Brian Bellows most underrated hockey player ever (truly, if you think about it!) and they aren't in the hall, but like Larry Murphy who I wouldn't pick over anyone else I mention....even Bure just made it too recently, people prove all too often how they just refuse how great he actually was before the knee blew out on him.

On the other end of the ice, Curtis Joseph John Vanbiesbrouck and Mike Richter aren't in the hall of fame? **** that, I'll take them two over anyone after them not named Lundqvist.

Some people only want to hear some sort of a trophy count or something, but I remember quite clearly who were the standouts when I was a kid in the late 80s-90s. A lot gets lost in the stat and trophy count. Shame.

Hard to imagine keeping Murphy out when he is on the last two franchises that won back to back Cups. Not to mention being a major factor in all 4 of those wins. He is in there legitimately. Maybe not flashy, but extremely effective. Larry Murphy can play on my team anyday. Was not a fast skater, but hockey sense made up for that.

But I think Bellows and Kovalev are under what you should consider to be great. Very good players, possibly the best of that type of bunch. Mogilny as I said could have been, but he is haunted by a legitimate reputation of not caring outside of a contract year. Way too much of a Jekyl and Hyde thing with him. Bure was injured a lot but at least put together some elite seasons when healthy.

As for the goalies, hey, what can you do, the HHOF is strict on goalies. I like it that way though. There is a case for all three of those ones you mentioned but they also have some holes in their careers - all of them - and you can point towards that. Not a lot of goalies traditionally get into the HHOF. Quick may never get in despite two Cups. One gets in every few years. But I think there is more than Lundqvist that has been better than them since their careers ended. Luongo comes to mind. Price as well. Depending on what you think of Fleury, maybe him too.

 

[sr edler]

I think Bure might have been. Sundin probably wasn't but he was such a consistent player that he's rather easily ahead of Mogilny, IMO.

I think it depends on what talent you mean, really. Bure had great stick-handling ability at top speed, but Mogilny could slow the pace down better and make some better plays with his vision. Mogilny had a better wrist shot, but Bure had an underrated slapper. All in all they're probably pretty close to each other in overall talent level.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I don't know why high-scoring era keeps coming up here. Yes, his best season was on the tail end of a fairly high scoring era - but that's a pretty small part of his career.

And the peak scoring years were 1980-1986. Plenty of guys rode that wave into the Hall of Fame and Mogilny didn't play in any of those seasons. He also mostly missed the 1986-1990 secondary peak.

Mogilny scored pretty well into the mid 90s when scoring already had retreated to mid to early 70s levels. Mogilny was better than PPG at the lowest ebb of the dead puck era. Here's guys with a better than PPG average between 2000 and 2003 (only players who played at least 2 seasons' worth of games):

1. Jagr
2. Sakic
3. Naslund
4. Thornton
5. Kovalev
6. Palffy
7. Allison
8. Demitra
9. Modano
10. Bertuzzi
11. Mogilny
12. Tkachuk
13. Bure
14. Iginla

It bears mentioning that Mogilny was age 31-34 in that timeframe. One thing you will notice with that list is that a lot of the scorers on that list find themselves stuck on that sub-HHOF 'maybe' level. It's going to be the fate of a lot the late 90s/early 00s peak years players..

 

[Max Quackenbush]

To give everyone a better idea of HHOF worthiness, check out this list:

http://www.hhof.com/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMembersByName.jsp?type=Player

 

[SatanwasaSlovak]

76 goals in a season should be HoF-worthy in my opinion.

And about some "anti-russian-bias" that's argued here, it's bs. Russians weren't allowed to play in NHL until very recently in a history-sense. Why the hell would players before that be inducted into the NHL-HoF? Makes no sense.

 

[PensandCaps]

He was better than iginla and marleau and they might get in. 76 goals in 77 games in 92- 93. 76 goals should be an automatic HHOF worthy stat.

 

[MaxV]

Why the hell would players before that be inducted into the NHL-HoF? Makes no sense.

Exactly.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He was better than iginla and marleau and they might get in. 76 goals in 77 games in 92- 93. 76 goals should be an automatic HHOF worthy stat.

Mogilny couldn't hold Iginla's jock

Also. Keep in mind 92-93 was the highest scoring season in league history for first line level players. (Most 100 point scorers in league history, etc).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't know why high-scoring era keeps coming up here. Yes, his best season was on the tail end of a fairly high scoring era - but that's a pretty small part of his career.

And the peak scoring years were 1980-1986. Plenty of guys rode that wave into the Hall of Fame and Mogilny didn't play in any of those seasons. He also mostly missed the 1986-1990 secondary peak.

Mogilny scored pretty well into the mid 90s when scoring already had retreated to mid to early 70s levels. Mogilny was better than PPG at the lowest ebb of the dead puck era. Here's guys with a better than PPG average between 2000 and 2003 (only players who played at least 2 seasons' worth of games):

1. Jagr
2. Sakic
3. Naslund
4. Thornton
5. Kovalev
6. Palffy
7. Allison
8. Demitra
9. Modano
10. Bertuzzi
11. Mogilny
12. Tkachuk
13. Bure
14. Iginla

It bears mentioning that Mogilny was age 31-34 in that timeframe. One thing you will notice with that list is that a lot of the scorers on that list find themselves stuck on that sub-HHOF 'maybe' level. It's going to be the fate of a lot the late 90s/early 00s peak years players..

Speaking of Ziggy Palffy, I'd consider inducting him over Mogilny, but he wasn't lucky enough to have a spike year in the fluke 1992-93 season.

 

[jj cale]

When you hear the name Alexander Mogilny do you think "hall of fame"? I sure don't and it has nothing to do with his nationality. Voters don't care either, he just isn't good enough to get in.

Hall of fame talent, not hall of fame career.

 

[Big Phil]

He was better than iginla and marleau and they might get in. 76 goals in 77 games in 92- 93. 76 goals should be an automatic HHOF worthy stat.

Iginla, not a chance. No way. Come on, Iggy was an Art Ross winner, Pearson winner and Rocket winner in the same season. You add up Iggy's elite years and they trump Mogilny's and it isn't even close. He had consecutive years where he had elite seasons. It wasn't just once and then not again for another 4 years. There is no GM in the world who would pass on Iggy's career for Mogilny's. Marleau? Yeah maybe. He was very consistent and had a lot of "good" years but he's not getting into the HHOF. But neither is Mogilny.

Here's guys with a better than PPG average between 2000 and 2003 (only players who played at least 2 seasons' worth of games):

1. Jagr
2. Sakic
3. Naslund
4. Thornton
5. Kovalev
6. Palffy
7. Allison
8. Demitra
9. Modano
10. Bertuzzi
11. Mogilny
12. Tkachuk
13. Bure
14. Iginla

It bears mentioning that Mogilny was age 31-34 in that timeframe. One thing you will notice with that list is that a lot of the scorers on that list find themselves stuck on that sub-HHOF 'maybe' level. It's going to be the fate of a lot the late 90s/early 00s peak years players..

Jagr, Sakic and Thornton are HHOFers. Modano, Bure and Iginla are also. That's 6 out of 14. That being said, there were players who were playing like HHOFers at that particular time but don't have anything else outside of that. Naslund comes to mind as one of those guys. Bertuzzi comes to mind as one of those guys too. Tkachuk is a guy with a lot of negative things about him though and that is keeping him out. Palffy is basically Marc Savard. Pavol Demitra.........see Palffy. Kovalev isn't getting in either. Jason Allison had way too short of a time as a very good player. So I don't know what the fuss is all about. You can count maybe three elite years by Mogilny in his career. Bure had 5, plus a huge playoff run that Mogilny never had. Yeah Mogilny won a Cup and Bure didn't, but when did Mogilny play like Bure in the spring of 1994? Never.

 

[The Pale King]

Speaking of Ziggy Palffy, I'd consider inducting him over Mogilny, but he wasn't lucky enough to have a spike year in the fluke 1992-93 season.

Give Ziggy an extra ~10 goals spread across 3 seasons and suddenly we're talking about a 3 time 50 goal scorer in the DPE. He seemed to have a weird knack for scoring at the high end of each goal threshold, if that makes sense. High forties, high thirties, high twenties. Really doesn't make a difference in the grand scheme of things, but keeps him from those nice even-number milestones that the HHOF seems to love. My all-time favourite player, but realistically needed a minimum of two more really productive years or a deeper playoff run to get to the Kariya category of 'strong-maybe' for the HHOF.

Health, not effort, was the issue with Palffy. Not as frustrating as a fan, maybe. Still disappointing though.

Back on topic though: To keep things brief, Mogilny isn't particularly close for me. Too many off-years during his peak that didn't seem health related, and too many teams for brief jaunts with frustrating results. Which team's writers would really rally hard for his induction? At least Palffy would have the Isles and Kings guys in his court you'd think.

 

[Smelling Salt]

Mogilny is probably in my top 5 fav players to watch when he was on his game. An immense talent. But not HHOF worthy.

 

[sr edler]

Give Ziggy an extra ~10 goals spread across 3 seasons and suddenly we're talking about a 3 time 50 goal scorer in the DPE.

It seems a bit peculiar to give a player extra goals. It's also not 10 goals over three seasons but 14.

Give Bure 3 goals spread over two seasons and he's a back to back 60 goal scorer in the DPE, on worse teams than Palffy played for, and a four time 60 goal scorer.

 

[threetimer*]

It seems a bit peculiar to give a player extra goals. It's also not 10 goals over three seasons but 14.

Give Bure 3 goals spread over two seasons and he's a back to back 60 goal scorer in the DPE, on worse teams than Palffy played for, and a four time 60 goal scorer.

Bure's in. Pallfy won't make it. And the poster is probably right that a couple of 50-goal seasons would have made his case way stronger. Bure never needed that "imagine..." sort of push.

Mogilny was weird. Gut says yeah, brain says no. He sustained that one ugly injury that almost made me puke. Now some mob issues are getting leaked.

Not sure if that is a sufficient excuse. Guys whose effort can be questioned, or rather can't be questioned (in the worst possible way) will always look weird in the HoF.

And he never pulled two elite seasons in a row. I think that just one more season of the 95/96 sort would have pushed him in, especially had it followed any of his elite years.