Habs draft Logan Mailloux - Part 3 (MOD post#1)

[Treb]

If this is the behavior that you think is normal for young teenagers and young adults, god f***ing help us.

Didn't mean it that way.

I mean you are greatly misunderstanding the motives behind his actions. It's a lot more petty than you think it is.

The motive here is bragging about having sex. It's not about power over women or malicious intent.

It makes him a dumb kid who was insensitive, not some sociopath/psychopath.

 

[NicRattlehead]

The states has what they call a "Romeo and Julliet" rule, where if the 2 are close in age there's not anything "wrong" assuming it's all consensual.

In Sweden they have this rule and the age of consent is 15 in Sweden.

Nothing the woman did was wrong.

People want only the facts to be presented for Mailloux, then the other side should stop pointing at the woman and saying she did wrong.

I agree with this. The girl did nothing wrong and I would argue absolutely has the right and probably should seek a settlement in civil court.

I say that even though I also tend to think people are way overreacting about what this kid actually did. I think it's unfair to label him a bad person based on us really only knowing him by this one incident. He could actually be a really good kid who made a really bad decision. It's really not for me to say anyway. I try my best not to judge others.

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

Great. So what's the line for you? If the guy isn't in prison...you draft him? What's YOUR limitations? And if you have some, respect people who have other limitations.

You refuse to answer ? Fine.

Of course I have limitations, killing, assaulting, bullying repeatedly without remorse, child abusing, molesting, raping... To name a few.

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

i mean people are dumb

Even dumber when we are kids...

 

[haseoke39]

Regarding your first point, no not really. Refs in sports tend to piss me off a good bit. If my team gets cheated I get pretty irate. I'll admit that.

Regarding your second point.....you didn't "argue for a kid not get drafted". That looks like "Man I'm frustrated, I really wish we didn't draft him. Just seems like a bad seed." You said (and keep in mind I'm only picking one sentence) "And if not, a f***ing mob of fans ought to show up to rookie camp with signs about sexual abuse and demanding Bergevin's resignation." You want a bunch of fans to show up to a rookie camp and verbally abuse an 18 year old kid and you want to a man's livelihood to be taken away for trying to pick a really skilled player because of an inappropriate picture where a girl didn't consent. Is it really that farfetched to say that if this is what you think is the correct punishment for a GM picking a kid guilty of/charged with defamation and criminal photography then the punishment for rape and murder (which are clearly far worse) would be stoning, draw and quarter, or disembowelment in your world? I'm sorry but your call for action just seems a bit barbaric and a little disturbing that someone would actually feel this way.

But this is what happens when people don't quietly do the right thing. Shit has to get loud. It's too late now to sit back and say, yeah, maybe teams should pass on him this year until we see how this plays out over the next 12 months -- does he actually make restitution to this girl and her family? Do we interview him a year from now and he's better able to articulate why what he did was wrong and what he's concretely done to make amends? Because of course everyone is entitled to make restitution one day, and all sinners can be redeemed.

But what we've got is none of that. He's not even adequately apologized in the eyes of the victim, the team has said nothing about anything he might do in the future to make right, and so now the issue isn't one kid is a sick f*** -- the issue is an organization that represents the whole community is saying it's basically acceptable to be a sick f***.

And when a whole suite of scouts and suits are getting behind this kid and saying, hey, it's not a big deal (I mean oh yes it is, but not big enough to actually DO anything about), now you have a bigger f***ing problem. And that problem isn't solved quietly. They've made sure of it.

 

[NicRattlehead]

Didn't mean it that way.

I mean you are greatly misunderstanding the motives behind his actions. It's a lot more petty than you think it is.

The motive here is bragging about having sex. It's not about power over women or malicious intent.

It makes him a dumb kid who was insensitive, not some sociopath/psychopath.

Boom. This is it.

I swear some of these guys never grew up playing sports and being in a locker room. I didn't do something like this but there was pressure to be "manly" in front of the guys. Some guys would take this as "let me talk about how I got with this chick and then that chick all in the same night". I'm not saying it's right but in large part that's the way a lot of athletes are.

 

[haseoke39]

You've obviously researched the matter extensively and sat in on the counselling sessions he has had with a female psychiatrist to know exactly how he feels about what happened and how serious he is about improving the way he is?

I doubt that two months of counselling (knowing how these things might work) have made a complete, magical transformation, but it might have already brought awareness to how wrong dismissing the victim as vindicative is and about Breaking trust regarding intimate moments spent with someone else.

Expecting a full change at this stage for the boy or a full recovery for the girl may well be idealistic and unrealistic.

For the girl, its hard to say how lasting the trauma (if any) might be. Every individual is different and copes with things differently.

I don't give a f*** what he does in counseling, dude. Counseling is for him. Not for anyone else, least of all the victim.

 

[Gravity]

But this is what happens when people don't quietly do the right thing. Shit has to get loud. It's too late now to sit back and say, yeah, maybe teams should pass on him this year until we see how this plays out over the next 12 months -- does he actually make restitution to this girl and her family? Do we interview him a year from now and he's better able to articulate why what he did was wrong and what he's concretely done to make amends? Because of course everyone is entitled to make restitution one day, and all sinners can be redeemed.

But what we've got is none of that. He's not even adequately apologized in the eyes of the victim, the team has said nothing about anything he might do in the future to make right, and so now the issue isn't one kid is a sick f*** -- the issue is an organization that represents the whole community is saying it's basically acceptable to be a sick f***.

And when a whole suite of scouts and suits are getting behind this kid and saying, hey, it's not a big deal (I mean oh yes it is, but not big enough to actually DO anything about), now you have a bigger f***ing problem. And that problem isn't solved quietly. They've made sure of it.

Shit always has to get loud now. It's 2021 and there's more forms of social media than I can count. I disagree with the pick but how as the org said what he did is acceptable? They simply gave him another chance. Should he never be drafted? How is him getting or not getting drafted going to make the victim feel better? He has faced repercussions for his actions and will continue to do. He didn't get away scot free...

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

6'3 212 RD hopefully he shows he was worth being picked in spite of the baggage he brings.

I am hoping he becomes a terrific player and an even better citizen.

Good luck young man...you have some obstacles to overcome.

From this post forward I will only comment on his play. The baggage has been beat to death.

Timmins said in his interview that Mailloux is 6'5 218 lbs

 

[haseoke39]

Didn't mean it that way.

I mean you are greatly misunderstanding the motives behind his actions. It's a lot more petty than you think it is.

The motive here is bragging about having sex. It's not about power over women or malicious intent.

It makes him a dumb kid who was insensitive, not some sociopath/psychopath.

If it's just childish silliness, he doesn't lie. If he's so wondrously unaware that he didn't conceive this would grossly violate the woman he's doing it to, then he's credulous enough to tell her he's doing it.

He doesn't. You want to guess how awkward it is to quietly photograph someone in the sex act without them knowing? It's not like falling out of a tree. He takes a serious effort to conceal this from her, only to reveal it once he's done his damage.

That's not a silly rabbit scenario. And treating it so is making it easier for people to get away with it.

 

[NicRattlehead]

But this is what happens when people don't quietly do the right thing. Shit has to get loud. It's too late now to sit back and say, yeah, maybe teams should pass on him this year until we see how this plays out over the next 12 months -- does he actually make restitution to this girl and her family? Do we interview him a year from now and he's better able to articulate why what he did was wrong and what he's concretely done to make amends? Because of course everyone is entitled to make restitution one day, and all sinners can be redeemed.

But what we've got is none of that. He's not even adequately apologized in the eyes of the victim, the team has said nothing about anything he might do in the future to make right, and so now the issue isn't one kid is a sick f*** -- the issue is an organization that represents the whole community is saying it's basically acceptable to be a sick f***.

And when a whole suite of scouts and suits are getting behind this kid and saying, hey, it's not a big deal (I mean oh yes it is, but not big enough to actually DO anything about), now you have a bigger f***ing problem. And that problem isn't solved quietly. They've made sure of it.

I definitely agree with some of the points you make above but in this age of social media, unless this kid lives under a rock or heck didn't watch the comments made by the panel on NHL network itself, I'm not sure how he can think "oh yeah no big deal, everybody forgave me and things are hunky dory". Truthfully, in the almost 30 years I've been a sports fan, I don't think I've ever seen a fanbase this outraged toward one of their own for something that didn't happen on the field, court, or on the ice. I think if he didn't get it before he gets it now and I think the players on the team are seeing this just as much as he is. I think the potential negative impact will be smaller than you think. Just my self-admitted idiotic American opinion though .

 

[Banjo Cat]

Great. So what's the line for you? If the guy isn't in prison...you draft him? What's YOUR limitations? And if you have some, respect people who have other limitations.

This is a really good question. This gets to the heart of the matter. What are the limitations?

As I have said, it's a terrible thing to do to someone. Things I would point out are:

• He faced charges for it.
  
• It happened last year so some time has passed.
• Though it is still a harmful disgusting act, I don't think he did it to be malicious. I think he probably knows that it is.
• He is a teenager. This does not absolve him from bad behavior, but on the other hand I think teens can do really horrible things and it does not necessarily say much about who they are or will be.

I fully respect that you might have a different opinion on this.

Do you think he should still have a hockey career? I assume your answer is yes. So now the question ultimately becomes when is it ok to move on from the crime and move on with his life path. I would say that since it happened last year and since he made a full statement outlining exactly what he did, I respect that the Habs felt it was worth giving him a chance. As far as the pick itself, I didn't even know who he was before Friday night. Like everyone else, I was sitting there like "wha Mailloux who?"

 

[haseoke39]

Shit always has to get loud now. It's 2021 and there's more forms of social media than I can count. I disagree with the pick but how as the org said what he did is acceptable? They simply gave him another chance. Should he never be drafted? How is him getting or not getting drafted going to make the victim feel better? He has faced repercussions for his actions and will continue to do. He didn't get away scot free...

He did not even have to apologize to her face. His repercussions were a fine that was about equal to his airfare. This isn't repercussions. If he'd been six months older and in Canada, the statute he'd be prosecuted under would allow for up to five years in prison. He's faced nothing like consequences, and the Habs are making sure he doesn't have to do anything else to redeem himself in the future.

Another chance should mean a chance to make restitution. Nothing like that on the table. He just gets a mid six figures salary so if he wants to do this again, he can pay off the girl to shut her up.

 

[OldCraig71]

Part 3 already! This guy had better be the modern day coming of Chris Pronger!

 

[NicRattlehead]

Shit always has to get loud now. It's 2021 and there's more forms of social media than I can count. I disagree with the pick but how as the org said what he did is acceptable? They simply gave him another chance. Should he never be drafted? How is him getting or not getting drafted going to make the victim feel better? He has faced repercussions for his actions and will continue to do. He didn't get away scot free...

Interestingly enough, this social media age kind of gives him a permanent punishment. For the rest of his life he will have fans on other teams and random people saying things to him like "oh yeah you're that guy that raped that woman right before you got drafted" or "you're the dude that sexually abused that woman overseas when you were 17" or just calling him "rapist" (I know he didn't rape or physically abuse the girl but people always mess up the details and make something sound way worse than it actually is). He definitely will not get off scot free.

 

[Treb]

If it's just childish silliness, he doesn't lie. If he's so wondrously unaware that he didn't conceive this would grossly violate the woman he's doing it to, then he's credulous enough to tell her he's doing it.

He doesn't. You want to guess how awkward it is to quietly photograph someone in the sex act without them knowing? It's not like falling out of a tree. He takes a serious effort to conceal this from her, only to reveal it once he's done his damage.

That's not a silly rabbit scenario. And treating it so is making it easier for people to get away with it.

You think it's hard to take a crappy photograph with your cellphone of someone drunk not looking at your upper body? You can't even identify her from the pictures, that's how bad it was. They were not having a photoshoot there.

Again, the intent was to prove to his teammates he got laid. He didn't think of the consequences of that picture.

 

[haseoke39]

You think it's hard to take a crappy photograph with your cellphone of someone drunk not looking at your upper body? You can't even identify her from the pictures, that's how bad it was. They were not having a photoshoot there.

Again, the intent was to prove to his teammates he got laid. He didn't think of the consequences of that picture.

He absolutely thought it was worth lying to her about.

This is unbelievable garbage, dude. Just. He took secret photographs of a drunk chick in a sexually compromising position and then didn't tell her about them until he'd tagged her. If you're saying that just happens because because, my f***ing god ....

Here's the thing -- the only way you can paint him as having basically innocent intent with respect to her in that situation is if you attribute to him no awareness at all of the fact that his victim has any right to consent to what he's doing to her. And when you normalize that thought process, that's toxic. I know as soon as a say rape culture someone is going to accuse me of lying about what he's done, but it has to be said: if you just kind of *accidentally* lie to your victim about recording them having sex and then sending it to your friends, and you think that doesn't indicate a malevolent intent towards that person, you're basically saying he's got no awareness of her right to consent to that. If he did, he'd be violating her knowingly, right? And that is such a heroic assumption that's used to justify so many sexual crimes in general that it deserves to be recognized for what it is. That's garbage and doesn't belong in this society.

 

[Gravity]

He did not even have to apologize to her face. His repercussions were a fine that was about equal to his airfare. This isn't repercussions. If he'd been six months older and in Canada, the statute he'd be prosecuted under would allow for up to five years in prison. He's faced nothing like consequences, and the Habs are making sure he doesn't have to do anything else to redeem himself in the future.

Another chance should mean a chance to make restitution. Nothing like that on the table. He just gets a mid six figures salary so if he wants to do this again, he can pay off the girl to shut her up.

As someone who considers himself a cynic, I think even that's too pessimist for me. They will both be in each others lives due to this incident but imo their paths have bifurcated now. He has said he wants to " be active in the community" (whatever that means) and use his story as a warning sign. What more can he do as restitution? He asked not to be drafted which is a major sacrifice as a gesture of restitution. Not his fault he was still drafted.

I do not know about the face to face apology but how is it his fault that the fine amount was what it was? We're starting to blame him for things he has no control over.

 

[Gravity]

Interestingly enough, this social media age kind of gives him a permanent punishment. For the rest of his life he will have fans on other teams and random people saying things to him like "oh yeah you're that guy that raped that woman right before you got drafted" or "you're the dude that sexually abused that woman overseas when you were 17" or just calling him "rapist" (I know he didn't rape or physically abuse the girl but people always mess up the details and make something sound way worse than it actually is). He definitely will not get off scot free.

What I find terrible about this social media stuff is that now it follows the victim for a longer time as well. It going viral now means more people know of it and her because of it than if it would not have gone viral. That's really awful for her and I wish it could have remained somewhat more confidential for her sake.

 

[NicRattlehead]

What I find terrible about this social media stuff is that now it follows the victim for a longer time as well. It going viral now means more people know of it and her because of it than if it would not have gone viral. That's really awful for her and I wish it could have remained somewhat more confidential for her sake.

You're preaching to the choir. I can't stand social media. It truly is awful for her because of the current day and age.

I suppose maybe you count message boards as social media???? I typically don't since it is anonymous.

 

[Treb]

He absolutely thought it was worth lying to her about.

This is unbelievable garbage, dude. Just. He took secret photographs of a drunk chick in a sexually compromising position and then didn't tell her about them until he'd tagged her. If you're saying that just happens because because, my f***ing god ....

You seriously think someone who wants to take a picture to brag about having sex with a girl would be like: "Hey, I just met you, and this is crazy, but here's my cell phone, so smile maybe!"
Of course he would not tell her. I'm sure he didn't think it would reach her after he showed his teammates.

The thought process was probably:
Take picture.
Show it to teammates.
Brag.
Profit via ego and team acceptance.
The End.

Again, it's bad. Shouldn't do that.

But the purpose was to brag, not a power trip or some malicious intent.

 

[Tyson]

I hope we look back at this draft and realize we got some great players and improved the organization. We need some NHLers from this draft

 

[haseoke39]

He asked not to be drafted which is a major sacrifice as a gesture of restitution.

That's got nothing to do with restitution. And he only issued that statement AFTER doing all the interviews, which clearly indicates he was trying to get drafted right up to a couple days before the f***ing draft. My guess is he issued that statement because enough people told him he was going to be blacklisted that he wanted to cover his ass and pretend it was his choice.

 

[Garry Valk]

You are so far of the reality. If the facts were as wrong as you are describing them, The Sweden court would have been a lot, lot more severe on him. He was fined for less than 3500$ if i remember correctly.

Take the time to read thee real story.

No, his facts are correct. The penalty was what it was because he was 17. Doesn’t make what he did any better. But the facts are facts.

 

[Garry Valk]

You think it's hard to take a crappy photograph with your cellphone of someone drunk not looking at your upper body? You can't even identify her from the pictures, that's how bad it was. They were not having a photoshoot there.

Again, the intent was to prove to his teammates he got laid. He didn't think of the consequences of that picture.

You’re right. So then he went and took screenshots of her social media profiles with all her info and shared those to specifically identify her. This isn’t some silly kid thing. He lied about it. This was intent.