News Article: Habs Best Drafting Team In NHL??

[Whitesnake]

You have to draft guys that you can't acquire through UFA and trades 'cause they are too valuable. Who really cares about how the depth players you can get since you can get them every day of the week and twice on sundays as throw-in, free agents or whatever. In Montreal, we HAVE to be better than most teams who are more attractive in trades (with the NMC and NTC) and UFA's. Teams that sucked more than us happened to be teams that weren,t able to draft well. We were. We are clearly top 5. But the best because we have more regulars in the NHL is not a good measure. What it does mean is that we have a head scout and a group who can recognize who will be NHL'ers. But that doesn't mean that it will build a better team.

 

[Hoople]

There IS a trophy given to the best coach in the NHL. According to the people who maintain the Jack Adams Award page on Wiki, only 3 times has the coach who won that award also won the stanley cup, and another 3 times did that coach get to the finals but lost.

Year year is no different, none of the coaches even got to the conference finals.

Yay. This forum should pitch in and buy Timmins a trophy and send pictures of it out on Twitter and Instagram.

Are we any closer to Cup 11 years later with our primo draft picks?

 

[Kriss E]

Quality is a better measure than quantity, and we have not had the quality, especially in the first round. 0 final appearances in that time frame

Not really. You don't make it to the NHL with poor quality. So if you have the most players making it, there's quality in there. Ignoring this is pretty insane..
Also, you cannot look at either quality or quantity without it being relative to the positions you picked in.
Overall quality of the draft is important too. If it's a very deep draft, you can pick 15 and still have a very good player, one that would go in the top 10 of a lesser draft.

Basically, all you can ask from your draft guru is to draft you players that will make the NHL. So much can be subjective after that, and that's why you need a very strong team in charge of player development.

Timmins has done his job well.

I base success on winning cups, maybe you guys don't? There is no doubt other teams have drafted better than us and gone on to win cups. Now you might argue they had higher picks than us but still they didn't strikeout with them. Price was an awesome pick and so was Subban and patches other than that we got some ok players but nothing that has helped us even get to a final let alone win a cup. There's been a couple disaster years too, go check the 2009 draft class

That's pretty ridiculous though. There is more to building a winning team than drafting.
The way our team was managed was ridiculous. It was a complete zoo on our century year. Your management team over the years managed to lose Souray, Ryder, Koivu, Kovalev, Streit, Komisarek, and more, for flat out nothing. I'm not talking about teams in strong positions for some PO pushes. Talking about PO bubble team, sometimes not even in a top 8 position. Then you add in the terrible development of some of our youngsters and how we waited until their absolute lowest value before trading them away, most often than not for a wasteful return.
Should I mention the terrible McDonagh trade?

We could have been a cup contending team already had our management team not been so mediocre.

 

[Kriss E]

You have to draft guys that you can't acquire through UFA and trades 'cause they are too valuable. Who really cares about how the depth players you can get since you can get them every day of the week and twice on sundays as throw-in, free agents or whatever. In Montreal, we HAVE to be better than most teams who are more attractive in trades (with the NMC and NTC) and UFA's. Teams that sucked more than us happened to be teams that weren,t able to draft well. We were. We are clearly top 5. But the best because we have more regulars in the NHL is not a good measure. What it does mean is that we have a head scout and a group who can recognize who will be NHL'ers. But that doesn't mean that it will build a better team.

That's not his job. His job is to get you players that will make it to the NHL, and depending on where you pick and the depth of that draft year, expectations will vary.
It's the GM's job to build a winning team, not the head of drafting.
Article is about who's the best drafting team, not who's the best at building a winner.

 

[JoelWarlord]

I'll answer your question in the best way I can.

I don't give a **** about other teams. There are no trophies or awards given to fans for having the mythical best amateur scout in the NHL.

If you say Timmins hasn't been good enough then it stands to reason you think someone else has been or would have been better. I'm not talking about being super thrilled and getting a trophy that says our scouting is amazing, I'm talking about criticizing the right people. There is no reasonable way to expect better results from drafting without using the Penguins model of sucking so hard and winning a lottery to be handed 2 generational talents.

You should know that I'm not a Habs cheerleader. I'm a critical of the team as you are even though we often disagree on what to criticize. I don't think the organization has been anything but mediocre over the years outside of amateur scouting. You're right, the team hasn't won a cup and there hasn't been much success on the ice. We shouldn't be happy as fans that until recently there wasn't much to be excited about with this team. But we should be laying the blame at the right people, and for years the problem with this organization has been asset management.

Komisarek, McDonagh, Higgins, Hainsey, Beauchemin, Streit, Souray, Ribeiro, Grabovksi, both Kostitsyns, Latendresse, Theodore, Koivu. They're all gone and we have absolutely nothing to show for it. If even a few of those were trades that ended up more like Halak for Eller we'd be in a better place. Team's biggest need is a top 4 D and a #1 C. Ribeiro, Grabovski, and McDonagh became a bag of magic beans, Janne Niiniimaa, and our lord and saviour Greg Pateryn.

A question for you. Timmins has been drafting since 2003. Are we closer now to winning a Cup after those 11 years of drafting better than every other NHL team?

I think so, don't you? Only place I don't think we're better is at #1C, as 2003 Koivu was better than the current Desharnais. We didn't have a Norris winner in 2003, nor did we have anyone at Pacioretty's level as a goal scorer. Theodore had one incredible season but I'll take Price any day of the week.

And even if we weren't, it's still not necessarily the fault of scouting. Scouts draft players. GM's put rosters together. Why are we evaluating a scout based on the rosters that GM's have put together? Call it excuses all you want but there's tons of ways a roster can be put together and tons of ways a team can be mediocre despite good drafting. If Subban got hit by a bus tomorrow, and Pacioretty were forced to retire due to complications from his neck injury, where does the fault lie? Would that be a failure of amateur scouting? It would significantly hamper the roster for a long time and we'd be back to square one, with our cup hopes dashed for 5+ years.

Or for a less extreme example, if our GM's traded away a Norris contending defenseman for a washed up center who got bought out 2 years later, allowed multiple productive top 9 forwards to walk for nothing, traded a top 6 two way center for 40 games of Robert Lang and an AHLer, traded away top 60 picks for Schneider, Wisniewski, and Tanguay, let another top pairing D walk for free, and signed stopgap veterans to keep our NHL ready 1st round pick defensemen in the AHL, would it be the fault of scouting?

 

[Kriss E]

Yay. This forum should pitch in and buy Timmins a trophy and send pictures of it out on Twitter and Instagram.

Are we any closer to Cup 11 years later with our primo draft picks?

I think you lost your right to complain about not having a cup winning team the day you said we should trade PK because he was holding out and called him selfish. With that kind of crazy mentality, you don't deserve a winning team.

 

[sharks9]

Yay. This forum should pitch in and buy Timmins a trophy and send pictures of it out on Twitter and Instagram.

Are we any closer to Cup 11 years later with our primo draft picks?

Of course we are! Are you saying that Timmins' picks of Price, Subban, Pacioretty and Galchenyuk haven't brought us closer to a Cup?

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Damn.

I need to lower my expectations then.

Just watch the games for the entertainment value of it being hockey and not really hoping that the Habs win.

No stress, no cares. We win, great. We lose, great. Its just a hockey game.

Nope. Will never happen, for me at least.

Timmins laid the foundation for a contender :

Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Gallagher

McDo-Subban

Price

That's without mentionning Beaulieu, Tinordi, De La Rose and some other bright young prospects that we have.

If we don't have success on the ice, it's due to other reasons. Namely Mad Bob and his trusted accomplice Pierre "Grima" Gauthier who couldn't do anything to surround players properly and gave away part of the core for short term "gains".

It's up to the management to actually make trades and signings to surround what we have better. And to hire the best coaching staff possible to get these guys to the top.

Timmins can't do everything. Some of it has to come by way of trades and signatures.

At worse Timmins has been above average. Find me another team who has drafted as low in the first round as we have the past 10 years and who has come out with a haul like what is written above.

I think you lost your right to complain about not having a cup winning team the day you said we should trade PK because has holding out and called him selfish. With that kind of crazy mentality, you don't deserve a winning team.

Oh snap. Dem fighting words.

 

[Whitesnake]

That's not his job. His job is to get you players that will make it to the NHL, and depending on where you pick and the depth of that draft year, expectations will vary.
It's the GM's job to build a winning team, not the head of drafting.
Article is about who's the best drafting team, not who's the best at building a winner.

What I meant is that you can draft 1000 bottom 6 players, you can have the greatest quantity of all teams reunited, it's NOT going to make your team a great one. The draft isn,t about quantity. It's about quality. Especially in cities when you can't attract too many great UFA's and when your city doesn't happen to be in "to be traded" clauses for trades.

 

[Whitesnake]

Of course we are! Are you saying that Timmins' picks of Price, Subban, Pacioretty and Galchenyuk haven't brought us closer to a Cup?

You are right. And we HAVE to add the McDonagh's name in this as well. This is NOT Timmins fault if Dumb and Dumber were in charge of that team at that time.

But aside from Galchenyuk, since 2008....it's really thin. That's 6 years now. But I understand that there's still some years in there that we still need to be patient to see the end-results. And that's where management kicks in. 5 years since the draft and chances are we'd still won't see Tinordi full time. 4 years since the draft and maybe not even Beaulieu as well. Timmins did his job. But those kids needs to force the end of that management. And giving Emelin 4 years, and still sticking with Gorges and geez maybe even Bouillon won't help. So that's another topic but true that the kids didn't force anybody's hands so far. We already have to change our expectations about McCarron. 2012 draft while incredibly sexy will probably be one of our most dissapointing one especially because of how sexy it was. And so on. Since 2008, you could probably add Gallagher. But it's still relatively thin. But again, Timmins didn't have the best picks to work with.

 

[GlassesJacketShirt]

Timmins has done an excellent job of keeping this team afloat, having drafted some fine cornerstones in Subban, Price, Pacioretty and McDonagh.

What I will say, however, is that whether it's due to Timmins' drafting or Montreal's overall development system or both, this team has had issues drafting/developing bonafide offensive talents. Since Timmins has come on board, Pacioretty, is the only one who has truly worked out as someone who can be considered a first line talent. Plekanec was a great pick, Gallagher is a little engine that could and the Belarussian Trio became decent players (gave up too quickly on one, other two are history), but after that it goes downhill quick.

And yeah, I realize there's Galchenyuk and maybe there will be someone in the prospect pool who beats expectations. I'm just saying so far, there hasn't been much that has worked out.

 

[Kriss E]

What I meant is that you can draft 1000 bottom 6 players, you can have the greatest quantity of all teams reunited, it's NOT going to make your team a great one. The draft isn,t about quantity. It's about quality. Especially in cities when you can't attract too many great UFA's and when your city doesn't happen to be in "to be traded" clauses for trades.

Sure, if all you're doing is grabbing bottom players. But that's not the case now is it..
PK has a norris, Price is one of the best in the NHL, McDonagh is getting some Norris recognition as well, Beaulieu-Tinordi have top 4 potential (dare I say top 3 for Beaulieu?), I think Emelin could also be a top 4 guy but he needs to play on his natural side, MaxPac was a goal shy from scoring 40, Gallagher is a top 6 player, Galchenyuk has #1 center potential, I'm guessing Timmins had his say in who Josh Gorges was as well when we moved Rivet for him. We can talk about Halak and Streit as well.
This is not mentioning the other players with top 6 potential that we pretty much couldn't develop quite well, the Kostitsyn broz, Grabovski, Lats, Higgins.

We're not talking about 1000 bottom six or bottom pairing guys here. Timmins drafted us enough talent to build a cup contender with. We poorly managed our asset, that's an entirely different issue.

 

[Whitesnake]

Sure, if all you're doing is grabbing bottom players. But that's not the case now is it..
PK has a norris, Price is one of the best in the NHL, McDonagh is getting some Norris recognition as well, Beaulieu-Tinordi have top 4 potential (dare I say top 3 for Beaulieu?), I think Emelin could also be a top 4 guy but he needs to play on his natural side, MaxPac was a goal shy from scoring 40, Gallagher is a top 6 player, Galchenyuk has #1 center potential, I'm guessing Timmins had his say in who Josh Gorges was as well when we moved Rivet for him. We can talk about Halak and Streit as well.
This is not mentioning the other players with top 6 potential that we pretty much couldn't develop quite well, the Kostitsyn broz, Grabovski, Lats, Higgins.

We're not talking about 1000 bottom six or bottom pairing guys here. Timmins drafted us enough talent to build a cup contender with. We poorly managed our asset, that's an entirely different issue.

In the post you first quoted, I,m saying we're top 5. And since my measuring stick is not exactly quantity, as I was stating on that post and in numerous posts, it has to mean that I'm recognizing Timmins qualities and that he was indeed able to bring some quality. My point on that post was mostly about that study and that interpretation of it that makes THE best drafting team because of quantity. I don't agree that it's a great measuring stick. But I still believe we're amongst the best.

Having said all of that and based on the guys you added and the guys we mentioned, since 2008 (while some others years are still to come in the evaluation), we've had Galchenyuk and Gallagher. Other guys you mentioned did good, yet people were bashing them like tomorrow for all sorts of things...but it was very good picks. But since 2008, it has been too quiet for the talent that Timmins has shown before.

 

[Hoople]

I think you lost your right to complain about not having a cup winning team the day you said we should trade PK because he was holding out and called him selfish. With that kind of crazy mentality, you don't deserve a winning team.

Despite all that you said, my opinion has not changed. Any Habs player who puts himself above the team is worthy of my scorn while they are holding out.

You can believe the opposite of that. Your choice and I dont give a rip.

However, since I am a Habs fan and you said that I dont deserve a winning team, you just also said that you dont deserve one either because you are a Habs fan as well.

Think about it for a second

Thanks for the laugh. I needed it.

 

[Hoople]

If you say Timmins hasn't been good enough then it stands to reason you think someone else has been or would have been better. I'm not talking about being super thrilled and getting a trophy that says our scouting is amazing, I'm talking about criticizing the right people. There is no reasonable way to expect better results from drafting without using the Penguins model of sucking so hard and winning a lottery to be handed 2 generational talents.

You should know that I'm not a Habs cheerleader. I'm a critical of the team as you are even though we often disagree on what to criticize. I don't think the organization has been anything but mediocre over the years outside of amateur scouting. You're right, the team hasn't won a cup and there hasn't been much success on the ice. We shouldn't be happy as fans that until recently there wasn't much to be excited about with this team. But we should be laying the blame at the right people, and for years the problem with this organization has been asset management.

Komisarek, McDonagh, Higgins, Hainsey, Beauchemin, Streit, Souray, Ribeiro, Grabovksi, both Kostitsyns, Latendresse, Theodore, Koivu. They're all gone and we have absolutely nothing to show for it. If even a few of those were trades that ended up more like Halak for Eller we'd be in a better place. Team's biggest need is a top 4 D and a #1 C. Ribeiro, Grabovski, and McDonagh became a bag of magic beans, Janne Niiniimaa, and our lord and saviour Greg Pateryn.


I think so, don't you? Only place I don't think we're better is at #1C, as 2003 Koivu was better than the current Desharnais. We didn't have a Norris winner in 2003, nor did we have anyone at Pacioretty's level as a goal scorer. Theodore had one incredible season but I'll take Price any day of the week.

And even if we weren't, it's still not necessarily the fault of scouting. Scouts draft players. GM's put rosters together. Why are we evaluating a scout based on the rosters that GM's have put together? Call it excuses all you want but there's tons of ways a roster can be put together and tons of ways a team can be mediocre despite good drafting. If Subban got hit by a bus tomorrow, and Pacioretty were forced to retire due to complications from his neck injury, where does the fault lie? Would that be a failure of amateur scouting? It would significantly hamper the roster for a long time and we'd be back to square one, with our cup hopes dashed for 5+ years.

Or for a less extreme example, if our GM's traded away a Norris contending defenseman for a washed up center who got bought out 2 years later, allowed multiple productive top 9 forwards to walk for nothing, traded a top 6 two way center for 40 games of Robert Lang and an AHLer, traded away top 60 picks for Schneider, Wisniewski, and Tanguay, let another top pairing D walk for free, and signed stopgap veterans to keep our NHL ready 1st round pick defensemen in the AHL, would it be the fault of scouting?

What I highlighted is the disconnect.

I never said Timmins is not good enough. I am on record as saying that he is average.

You can find in every team an amateur scout who has drafted impact players like Timmins has. It has a lot to do with where you draft positionally and how good the prospect pool is that year.

And every team has a player that was drafted in lower rounds who has become a valuable member of the team like Gallagher.

That's my entire point. Timmins is no better nor no worse than the rest of the NHL amateur scouts. Some picks are no-brainers. Some are coin flips that come out great and some are coin flips that fall flat.

Despite that reality, Timmins is held to a higher level here. He is given the superiority label. Management gets the blame. Timmins gets the credit.

Its kind of funny reading the levels of adoration he gets here. He is good at what he does. And so are the majority of the other NHL scouts for other organizations.

Ben Maxwell, former NHL player for 35 games in his career drafted by Timmins and credited for making it to the NHL, says hello. He counts toward the total, right?

 

[calder candidate]

Using games played isn't the greatest benchmark for drafting success, it is a good indicator but not the greatest quantity vs quality

I still feel Mtl (under Timmins) is above avg. specially since 8 of the 10 years they didn't have 1st, 2nd or 3rd round pick and thees are money pick. Mtl have had great success in the later round unfortunately does aren't usually difference maker.
2004 no 2nd round pick
2005 no 3rd round pick
2005 no 1st round pick
2009 no 2nd round pick
2010 no 2nd round pick or 3rd round pick
2011 no 2nd round pick or 3rd round pick

The issue has been developpement and questionable asset mangement

 

[Kriss E]

Despite all that you said, my opinion has not changed. Any Habs player who puts himself above the team is worthy of my scorn while they are holding out.

You can believe the opposite of that. Your choice and I dont give a rip.

However, since I am a Habs fan and you said that I dont deserve a winning team, you just also said that you dont deserve one either because you are a Habs fan as well.

Think about it for a second

Thanks for the laugh. I needed it.

I didn't have to say anything. You made yourself look foolish better than I could ever attempt.
PK, the selfish player that puts himself of the team. Yup. He's a cancer.
And boy, am I glad the Kings got rid of their selfish player that put himself in front of the team in Doughty. Phew, they dodge a bullet there lemme tell you..

And btw, it's not because you don't deserve something that you don't end up getting it anyway.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

When you lower the bar for what qualifies as success, then what you posted makes sense.

The Habs have not had real success for so long that a large majority of this fanbase has come to embrace average seasons as success.

But in reality, it is not. Twenty one years and counting.

Since 2010 which teams have had undeniably more success than Montreal?

Kings
Blackhawks
Bruins
Rangers


That's pretty much the end of the list.

A few teams with marginally more success like Vancouver and San Jose but that's about it.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

What I highlighted is the disconnect.

I never said Timmins is not good enough. I am on record as saying that he is average.

You can find in every team an amateur scout who has drafted impact players like Timmins has. It has a lot to do with where you draft positionally and how good the prospect pool is that year.

And every team has a player that was drafted in lower rounds who has become a valuable member of the team like Gallagher.

That's my entire point. Timmins is no better nor no worse than the rest of the NHL amateur scouts. Some picks are no-brainers. Some are coin flips that come out great and some are coin flips that fall flat.

Despite that reality, Timmins is held to a higher level here. He is given the superiority label. Management gets the blame. Timmins gets the credit.

Its kind of funny reading the levels of adoration he gets here. He is good at what he does. And so are the majority of the other NHL scouts for other organizations.

Ben Maxwell, former NHL player for 35 games in his career drafted by Timmins and credited for making it to the NHL, says hello. He counts toward the total, right?

I agree with you here. Although, I don't think Timmins is average. I think he's above average but is treated like some sort of god here. He has hit on some picks and flopped on others like many scouts from other decent teams. We also don't know which picks were totally his call. We seem to give him the kudos for the home runs like Halak, PK, Pacioretty, etc.... but he takes no blame for Kostitsyn, Maxwell, Leblanc, Fischer, Chipchura, etc.

Still think he's a pretty good scout. Just not great like people say here. I can't really dog Timmins too much since Habs had such poor player development and asset management.

 

[Mathradio]

The Habs are a good drafting team, no question to be had there.

But the best in the league? That one is a questionable claim.

 

[Mrb1p]

Since 2010 which teams have had undeniably more success than Montreal?

Kings
Blackhawks
Bruins
Rangers


That's pretty much the end of the list.

A few teams with marginally more success like Vancouver and San Jose but that's about it.

I don't think you can say the Rangers, the Sharks or Vancouver are better than us since 2010. They have no title either and we have pretty much similar games played in the PO.

We missed the playoffs once and Vancouver too, so that might explain it.

 

[sharks9]

What I highlighted is the disconnect.

I never said Timmins is not good enough. I am on record as saying that he is average.

You can find in every team an amateur scout who has drafted impact players like Timmins has. It has a lot to do with where you draft positionally and how good the prospect pool is that year.

And every team has a player that was drafted in lower rounds who has become a valuable member of the team like Gallagher.

That's my entire point. Timmins is no better nor no worse than the rest of the NHL amateur scouts. Some picks are no-brainers. Some are coin flips that come out great and some are coin flips that fall flat.

Despite that reality, Timmins is held to a higher level here. He is given the superiority label. Management gets the blame. Timmins gets the credit.

Its kind of funny reading the levels of adoration he gets here. He is good at what he does. And so are the majority of the other NHL scouts for other organizations.

Ben Maxwell, former NHL player for 35 games in his career drafted by Timmins and credited for making it to the NHL, says hello. He counts toward the total, right?

If Timmins is just average, then who in the league has above average drafting?

 

[No fan fiction]

Jurco, Tatar & Sheahan look like special picks right now yes.

Check today's Detroit News for a homer assessment of Detroit's last 20 yrs and it stills notes the major failings: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140625/SPORTS0103/306250007

One of the clues that even this assessment is biased in Detroit's favour is the rating of Kyle Quincey, who was discarded for nothing and reacquired for nothing and out of desperation, at that.

The Detroit drafting myth is one of my biggest peeves b/c it's just such a terrible, overrated myth, on par with the European kids don't have character myth. And, unlike some people around here who offer three word posts to jack up their score and then offer "check my posts" as their answer to questions, I have actually detailed this myth extensively.

For your own edification, check: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005492.html

Cory Emerton?
Landon Ferraro?
Tom McCollum?

Oh, and for those who say, yeah, but it's their Euro scouting, just check their entire 2001 draft. Superior Euro scouting.

 

[Nynja*]

Using games played isn't the greatest benchmark for drafting success, it is a good indicator but not the greatest quantity vs quality

I still feel Mtl (under Timmins) is above avg. specially since 8 of the 10 years they didn't have 1st, 2nd or 3rd round pick and thees are money pick. Mtl have had great success in the later round unfortunately does aren't usually difference maker.
2004 no 2nd round pick
2005 no 3rd round pick
2005 no 1st round pick
2009 no 2nd round pick
2010 no 2nd round pick or 3rd round pick
2011 no 2nd round pick or 3rd round pick

The issue has been developpement and questionable asset mangement

Top 5 first rounders usually crack NHL. 5-10 usually find their way to the NHL after 1-3 years. Less than half of the 11-30's find their way to the NHL after 3-5 years.

Using the 2009 draft as reference, with games played as the reference point:

1	John Tavares 			C 	350
2	Victor Hedman 			D 	333
3	Matt Duchene 			C 	337
4	Evander Kane 			C 	324
5	Brayden Schenn 			C 	192
6	O.Ekman-Larsson 			D 	258
7	Nazem Kadri 			C 	177
8	Scott Glennie 			C 	1
9	Jared Cowen 			D 	158
10	M. P.-Svensson 			L 	218
11	Ryan Ellis 				D 	144
12	Calvin de Haan 			D 	52
13	Zack Kassian 			R 	156
14	Dmitri Kulikov 			D 	313
15	Peter Holland 			C 	68
16	Nick Leddy 				D 	258
17	David Rundblad 			D 	55
18	Louis Leblanc 			C 	50
19	Chris Kreider 			C 	89
20	Jacob Josefson 			C 	118
21	John Moore 			D 	173
22	Jordan Schroeder 		C 	56
23	Tim Erixon 				D 	51
24	Marcus Johansson 		C 	263
25	Jordan Caron 			R 	123
26	Kyle Palmieri 			R 	141
27	Philippe Paradis 			L 	
28	Dylan Olsen 			D 	72
29	Carter Ashton 			R 	47
30	Simon Despres 			D 	85

All of top 4 have played 300+ games, Schenn is almost at 200. 4/5 6-10 have 150+ games (with one who has played 1 game). Of the remaining 11-30, 3 have 200+ games, another 6 have 100+ games, another 3 have 70+ games.
Of all the second rounders, 8 have played 70+ games since their draft. Of all the third rounders, 3 have played 70+ games since their draft. Fourth rounders, 4 have played 70+ games. Fifth rounders, 4 have played 70+ games.

Obviously games played isnt a full indicator, because sometimes these players get called up due to circumstance (injuries/are rushed), and some players are held back due to the same circumstance (dont want to rush, no need to call up). But its usually a pretty solid factor of "did you make it to the NHL".

But I really wouldnt call a third round pick "money". Anything after the second round is throwing darts. If you think 2009 is an anomoly:

2008 draft year. Gonna cut off "success" at 100 games, since if you have played 100 games 5 years after your draft (these guys are all 23-24 by now), you probably wont make it:
2nd-7 players (1 at 96)
3rd-5 players
4th-4 players (1 at 97)
5th-4 players
6th-4 players (1 at 95)
7th-1 player

3rd round has drawn as much NHL success as 4th 5th and 6th in 2008.

How about 2007?
2nd round: 4 at 200+, 2 more at 130+
3rd round: 0 at 200+, 2 at 130+ (1 with 120)
4th round: 2 at 200+ (including that jazzhands guy), 2 more at 130+ (and another 2 with 126 and 129)
5th round: 1 with 300+ games (Jamie Benn), and another with 130+
6th round: 2 with 130+ games (and 1 more at 120+). Oh, included in that 6th round here, some guy named Carl Hagelin
7th round: 2 players with 200+ games.

That third round "money" pick, wasnt money there either. In fact it was LESS successful than the other rounds, yes even the 7th round.


The only "money" pick is a top 15. After that its more or less flinging mud at a wall hoping something sticks. Some people attribute it to skilled drafting, but I sincerely doubt Detroit let Datsyuk sit till 171 and opted to draft Jiri Fischer as well as Ryan Barnes, Tomek Valtonen, Jake McCracken, Brent Hobday, Carl Steen and Adam DeLeeuw above him (none of them ever even played a NHL game fyi) because they knew they had a gem no one would draft.

 

[Mad Habber]

Who is better? Since Timmins came on board, no team has as many draftees as the Habs play in the NHL or total games. I did that exercise a year or so ago and it is on one of the annual threads that complain about Timmins.

Since 2003, the Habs have 14 players play 200 games or more. The next closest is the Islanders with 12. Boston, Buffalo, Clumbus and SanJose with 11. This list goes all the way down to 4 for New Jersey and Tampa Bay. So that’s quantity.

Now lets talk quality. Eliminate the easy picks. Eliminate all single digit picks. That takes the likes of Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Price, Stamkos, etc. Because these are the easy picks and you should get 200 games out of these guys even if they suck. Just look up Brian Lawton (483), Patrick Stefan (455). No guarantee (Al Montaya, Jack Skille may still make it next year) but too bad. For the most part, they’ve played 200 games. We are left with Montreal at 12 players picked at 10 or beyond, Buffalo 10, Boston 9, NYI 9, Ottawa 9. The list goes down to Winnipeg/Atlanta 3 and Carolina and Tampa Bay at 2.

You want to compare player for player. Montreal has Subban, McDonagh, Pacioretty, Kostitsyn and Latendresse as top 5.

Anaheim has a great top 2, Getzlaf and Perry. Same draft. Third is Fowler, Drew Miller, Shane O’Brien.

Boston - Bergeron, Krejci, Lucic, Marchand, Versteeg
Buffalo - Myers, Ennis, Stafford, MacArthur, Sekera
Chicago - Seabrooke, Crawford, Byfuglien, Hjallmarsson, Brower
Colorado - Statsny, O’Reilly, Shattenkirk, Galiardi, Stewart
Dallas - Benn, Neal, Eriksson, Niskanen, Grossman
Philadelphia - Giroux, Carter, Richards, Downie, Fraser

And these are the best of the lot. You may want to trade your top 5 for someone else’s top 5, not me, but a few are pretty close but none are clear cut upgrades. We can use a center, but some teams can use a defenseman or winger. I call that quality.