News Article: Habs Best Drafting Team In NHL??

[Hoople]

After reading the article that the OP linked, it finally struck me.

Ranking the 10 Best Drafting Teams in the NHL
By Allan Mitchell , Featured Columnist
Jun 22, 2014

This sentence..........


"Montreal's on-ice success has been paid for with strong drafting over the last decade."


Allan Mitchell must be a Habs fanboy who views making the playoffs as a success.

As for me, Zero Stanley Cup Finals appearances in the past decade is not success.

Carry on with the group hug for Timmins' "success".

 

[Treb]

After reading the article that the OP linked, it finally struck me.

Ranking the 10 Best Drafting Teams in the NHL
By Allan Mitchell , Featured Columnist
Jun 22, 2014

This sentence..........


"Montreal's on-ice success has been paid for with strong drafting over the last decade."


Allan Mitchell must be a Habs fanboy who views making the playoffs as a success.

As for me, Zero Stanley Cup Finals appearances in the past decade is not success.

Carry on with the group hug for Timmins' "success".

How is Timmins responsible for the lack of success? Trading away the picks before he can make them (all those 1st/2nd) or trading the prospects way too soon (McDonagh) are management problem. Scouting is fine.

 

[David Suzuki]

After reading the article that the OP linked, it finally struck me.

Ranking the 10 Best Drafting Teams in the NHL
By Allan Mitchell , Featured Columnist
Jun 22, 2014

This sentence..........


"Montreal's on-ice success has been paid for with strong drafting over the last decade."


Allan Mitchell must be a Habs fanboy who views making the playoffs as a success.

As for me, Zero Stanley Cup Finals appearances in the past decade is not success.

Carry on with the group hug for Timmins' "success".

Two teams make the finals every year. There are 15 teams in the Eastern Conference. In the last 10 years, the following teams have made the finals from the East (2004-2014)

2004: Tampa
2005: No One
2006: Carolina
2007: Ottawa
2008: Pens
2009: Pens
2010: Flyers
2011: Bruins
2012: Devils
2013: Boston
2014: Rangers

So twice the Pens made it. We made it to the East Finals twice (2010 and 2014).

The following teams have made the ECF since 2004

2004: Flyers & Tampa
2005: No One
2006: Carolina & Sabres
2007: Ottawa & Sabres
2008: Pens & Flyers
2009: Pens & Canes
2010: Flyers & Habs
2011: Bruins & Lightning
2012: Devils & Rangers
2013: Bruins & Pens
2014: Rangers & Habs

so Carolina, Buffalo, Flyers, Rangers, Lightning, Habs, Pens, Bruins have all made it multiple times. Carolina and Buffalo are pretty low in the standings now, we are at the top of them. I'd say we have been, at worst, moderately successful.

 

[Forlando]

When AK was on, he was a beast. Scored amazing goals, and destroyed many guys. Back then he even had dropped because of health problems. It was a good pick.

Back then it was a "logical" pick, with hindsight even Timmins would do a mulligan.

 

[Hoople]

How is Timmins responsible for the lack of success? Trading away the picks before he can make them (all those 1st/2nd) or trading the prospects way too soon (McDonagh) are management problem. Scouting is fine.

The author of the piece said (and I quoted his words exactly) that the on-ice success of the Habs over the last decade is due to the strong drafting of Timmins.

And I ask where is this success?

Explain it all you want. I am simply responding to the words in the propaganda piece that was linked.

 

[Miller Time]

without a doubt, the work of Timmins & his team is what has kept this franchise from being in the same boat as the laffs or flames most of this decade.

our player management and overall asset management has been atrocious for the most part, luckily we've had a steady stream of NHL caliber players coming up via the draft, to help hide how terribly we were at developing and navigating UFA/Trade waters.

 

[Hoople]

Two teams make the finals every year. There are 15 teams in the Eastern Conference. In the last 10 years, the following teams have made the finals from the East (2004-2014)

2004: Tampa
2005: No One
2006: Carolina
2007: Ottawa
2008: Pens
2009: Pens
2010: Flyers
2011: Bruins
2012: Devils
2013: Boston
2014: Rangers

So twice the Pens made it. We made it to the East Finals twice (2010 and 2014).

The following teams have made the ECF since 2004

2004: Flyers & Tampa
2005: No One
2006: Carolina & Sabres
2007: Ottawa & Sabres
2008: Pens & Flyers
2009: Pens & Canes
2010: Flyers & Habs
2011: Bruins & Lightning
2012: Devils & Rangers
2013: Bruins & Pens
2014: Rangers & Habs

so Carolina, Buffalo, Flyers, Rangers, Lightning, Habs, Pens, Bruins have all made it multiple times. Carolina and Buffalo are pretty low in the standings now, we are at the top of them. I'd say we have been, at worst, moderately successful.

When you lower the bar for what qualifies as success, then what you posted makes sense.

The Habs have not had real success for so long that a large majority of this fanbase has come to embrace average seasons as success.

But in reality, it is not. Twenty one years and counting.

 

[groovejuice]

How is Timmins responsible for the lack of success? Trading away the picks before he can make them (all those 1st/2nd) or trading the prospects way too soon (McDonagh) are management problem. Scouting is fine.

Let's not forget some questionable coaching in the decade, to join the less than sterling player development, and trading great prospects and picks for questionable players.

Pro-scouting maybe was a weak point. Certainly not the amateur scouting.

Hockey is not as simplistic as SH would like us to believe.

Don't win cups? Timmins. Right.

 

[Hoople]

Let's not forget some questionable coaching in the decade, to join the less than sterling player development, and trading great prospects and picks for questionable players.

Pro-scoring maybe was a weak point. Certainly not the amateur scouting.

Hockey is not as simplistic as SH would like us to believe.

Don't win cups? Timmins. Right.

Maybe you should email the author of that article and ask him to re-think and then restate what the word success means.

And then ask the author to take a look at what we have in Hamilton and see if they are ready to step up and lead this team to a Cup.

Timmins is not the only reason the Habs have not won a Cup. He is one of the reasons though.

If you give credit for the "success", then you must also give credit for the "failure".

 

[groovejuice]

Maybe you should email the author of that article and ask him to re-think and then restate what the word success means.

And then ask the author to take a look at what we have in Hamilton and see if they are ready to step up and lead this team to a Cup.

Timmins is not the only reason the Habs have not won a Cup. He is one of the reasons though.

If you give credit for the "success", then you must also give credit for the "failure".

No problem with that. Timmons hasn't been perfect, and has made mistakes. Now show me an amateur scouting team who is perfect, or better yet, name more than a couple who have been demonstrably better.

By the way, Hamilton looks to be better this year with a large influx of recent draftees.

One of the reasons the Dogs are depleted is that so many have graduated to the bigs. Says lots about the quality of drafting that so many have made a quick jump.

The Galleys and Bournival, with Tinordi, Beaulieu, and Pateryn all possible for this year, as well as your favorite Swedish Dman.

Can't really say I can believe anything else other than our drafting is top-notch.

 

[David Suzuki]

When you lower the bar for what qualifies as success, then what you posted makes sense.

The Habs have not had real success for so long that a large majority of this fanbase has come to embrace average seasons as success.

But in reality, it is not. Twenty one years and counting.

I'd agree that the late 90's and early 2000's were dissapointing. However, since 2008 we've been competitive each season and especially the last two years. Days of winning the cup each year are gone get used to it.

 

[Habs Icing]

I always thought Timmins was one of the best. Asset management and development was what was wrong with this team. Sooner or later they will get it right.

Hopefully before Timmins leaves.

 

[DJ Breadman]

I base success on winning cups, maybe you guys don't? There is no doubt other teams have drafted better than us and gone on to win cups. Now you might argue they had higher picks than us but still they didn't strikeout with them. Price was an awesome pick and so was Subban and patches other than that we got some ok players but nothing that has helped us even get to a final let alone win a cup. There's been a couple disaster years too, go check the 2009 draft class

 

[Hoople]

I'd agree that the late 90's and early 2000's were dissapointing. However, since 2008 we've been competitive each season and especially the last two years. Days of winning the cup each year are gone get used to it.

I agree regarding winning the Cup with frequency is gone.

Is asking for one Cup every decade too much though?

 

[Ghetto Sangria]

I base success on winning cups, maybe you guys don't? There is no doubt other teams have drafted better than us and gone on to win cups. Now you might argue they had higher picks than us but still they didn't strikeout with them. Price was an awesome pick and so was Subban and patches other than that we got some ok players but nothing that has helped us even get to a final let alone win a cup. There's been a couple disaster years too, go check the 2009 draft class

You're forgetting players that timmins drafted but got traded or let go...

 

[MasterDecoy]

I agree regarding winning the Cup with frequency is gone.

Is asking for one Cup every decade too much though?

actually, yeah it is

 

[Hoople]

actually, yeah it is

Damn.

I need to lower my expectations then.

Just watch the games for the entertainment value of it being hockey and not really hoping that the Habs win.

No stress, no cares. We win, great. We lose, great. Its just a hockey game.

Nope. Will never happen, for me at least.

 

[DAChampion]

All you can hope for is for the Habs to be competitive, and they have bern in the past five years.

Besides, the problems with the team have nothing to do with Timmins. It was asset management, most spectacularly the 2009 offseason.

Higgins and McDonagh are among the quality players drafted by the Habs last decade.

 

[MasterDecoy]

Damn.

I need to lower my expectations then.

Just watch the games for the entertainment value of it being hockey and not really hoping that the Habs win.

No stress, no cares. We win, great. We lose, great. Its just a hockey game.

Nope. Will never happen, for me at least.

it's called being realistic.

you set this bar that is completely unrealistic in the new nhl and complain because the team cannot reach your ridiculous bar

 

[Habs100]

Quality is a better measure than quantity, and we have not had the quality, especially in the first round. 0 final appearances in that time frame

You can't blame the 0 finals appearances on Timmins. Especially since he wasn't the one who gave away McDonagh (one of his best draft picks). With McDonagh we likely would have been in the finals this year and perhaps another year.

 

[VirginiaMtlExpat]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2104441-ranking-the-10-best-drafting-teams-in-the-nhl/page/1

Obviously only takes into account the number of games, but still nice to see Montréal topping the league in something

The Canadiens are a team with some elite talent and some passengers. Both on and off the ice. Elite 1st defenceman and goalie, a few decent forwards, and a few ineffectual skaters up front; elite head of scouting and goalie coach, arguably a decent GM, fairly ineffectual head coach both in the NHL and AHL (my take, which I maintain). The team does as well as it does because of the elite talent, in that it tolerates a few passengers in making the ECF, but must find a way to improve on the latter if it wants to win it all.

 

[Nynja*]

I agree regarding winning the Cup with frequency is gone.

Is asking for one Cup every decade too much though?

30 teams in the league. Presuming that teams will cycle from the top of the standings to the bottom as their younger players get old and have to rebuild, realistic expectations is one cup every 30 years, one cup finals appearance every 15.


Also, the article states which teams draft picks have gone on to be successful hockey players, aka: NOT busts, ie: Louis Leblanc. It has nothing to do with the amount of stanley cup rings they have, it has everything to do with the amount of games they play, that's a successful hockey player.

Though, by how you measure being a skilled successful hockey player, I guess you consider both Matt Greene and Colin Fraser a first ballot hall of fame lock since they have 2 stanley cup rings in the past 3 years, and Tanner Pearson already won the Calder for winning a cup in his rookie year.

 

[JoelWarlord]

Timmins is not the only reason the Habs have not won a Cup. He is one of the reasons though.

If you give credit for the "success", then you must also give credit for the "failure".

You keep dodging the questions every time you bring this up. Which team has had better amateur scouting? Which team has drafted better? Not which teams have won cups. Which teams have drafted better. Drafting can only do so much, big part of LA's success was trading prospects for Carter/Richards, and Gaborik. Boston trading Wideman for Horton. Our equivalent was McD for Gomez, and trading for Vanek (I don't fault MB for the Vanek trade, it wouldn't be reasonable at the time of the trade to expect him to have such a poor playoff). A big part of Chicago and Boston's success was signing Hossa and Chara as UFA's, even Rafalski to the Red Wings for that matter. Our equivalent UFA's...I guess Hamrlik is about it.

The point of drafting is to add value and core players to your team. After that it's up to the GM. Streit, McDonagh, and Subban are/were all top pairing D, it's not the fault of Timmins that 1 of them was traded for magic beans and the other was allowed to walk. When a guy as good as Grabovski becomes the rights to Dan Ellis and a year of Dustin Boyd, when do we stop blaming the scouts? You have to evaluate amateur scouting on its own. You don't blame the accounting department for a lack of sales. It's not the fault of the sales guys if a company goes under because the CFO invested poorly.

I don't see an issue with the team's drafted core players. Subban vs Doughty/Keith is splitting hairs. Price vs Quick/Rask is a wash. Pacioretty is one of the best goal scorers in the league. Where we fall flat is the surrounding players, and the majority of those are acquired by trades or as UFA's. We didn't get a Carter/Richards type return for our prospects. We haven't signed an elite forward or defenseman as a UFA. We got unlucky with the Vanek trade while LA got great play from Gaborik. How is that the fault of amateur scouting?

I look at the roster and see a need for another defenseman, and an upgrade at #1C. Sure would be great if we could pick up a Ryan McDonagh and a Mikhail Grabovski (FYI don't think Grabovski is a #1C but I think he'd be a significant upgrade on DD because he wouldn't need any sheltering and Plekanec could move to the top line).

 

[Hoople]

I'll answer your question in the best way I can.

I don't give a **** about other teams. There are no trophies or awards given to fans for having the mythical best amateur scout in the NHL.

The NHL, just like every other league, praises teams who win it all. The rest is barely a footnote.

A question for you. Timmins has been drafting since 2003. Are we closer now to winning a Cup after those 11 years of drafting better than every other NHL team?

 

[Nynja*]

I don't give a **** about other teams. There are no trophies or awards given to fans for having the mythical best amateur scout in the NHL.

There IS a trophy given to the best coach in the NHL. According to the people who maintain the Jack Adams Award page on Wiki, only 3 times has the coach who won that award also won the stanley cup, and another 3 times did that coach get to the finals but lost.

This year is no different, none of the coaches even got to the conference finals.