Guentzel Vs Nylander

[Albus Dumbledore]

And Guentzel hasn't gotten top line minutes until this year, and he's damn near a PPG player with almost no PP production this year. Based on what does Nylander have "more to show" that Guentzel doesn't have? Does some magical year and a half difference mean that Nylander has some untapped potential that Guentzel doesn't have?

When you're talking about 2 guys who were picked a year apart, age difference means nothing. The age gap means something if you're comparing a 10 year veteran to a rookie, not 2 players a year and a half apart in age that were drafted in back to back drafts.

Historically players are always compared based on age when they are young. You are creating false narratives to fit your opinion.

Players should be compared based on age when they are young to get a better understanding. If we were to compare ovi and crosby age doesnt matters they are vets now and have peaked. But say a player like Laine or Barkov or Rantanen age should matter. I dont see how its any different here, age always matters when players are young.

Again you dont want age to matter cause it doesnt help your opinion, even if it didnt help my opinion i would still think it matters.

 

[82Ninety42011]

Guentzel with the playoff numbers weighing heavy for him. Both play with very talented linemates as well no advantage to either there.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Historically players are always compared based on age when they are young. You are creating false narratives to fit your opinion.

Players should be compared based on age when they are young to get a better understanding. If we were to compare ovi and crosby age doesnt matters they are vets now and have peaked. But say a player like Laine or Barkov or Rantanen age should matter. I dont see how its any different here, age always matters when players are young.

Again you dont want age to matter cause it doesnt help your opinion, even if it didnt help my opinion i would still think it matters.

No, I'm saying it doesn't matter because citing age in a comparison with a guy who's 24 and a guy who's 22.5 is ****ing stupid. It's really easy to understand, this has nothing to do with what will fit my opinion. It's that comparing 2 guys that close in age and citing age is just really stupid. Especially when you're talking about 2 guys who are as established as Nylander and Guentzel are, it's just a dumb thing to look at.

You have 2 guys in their low 20s who were drafted a year apart and are both established top line NHLers. That age difference means nothing, it's really just you clinging to anything you can cling at to prop up Nylander. It's like citing age when talking about McDavid vs Matthews, it's literally a pointless fact to bring up.

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

No, I'm saying it doesn't matter because citing age in a comparison with a guy who's 24 and a guy who's 22.5 is ****ing stupid. It's really easy to understand, this has nothing to do with what will fit my opinion. It's that comparing 2 guys that close in age and citing age is just really stupid. Especially when you're talking about 2 guys who are as established as Nylander and Guentzel are, it's just a dumb thing to look at.

You have 2 guys in their low 20s who were drafted a year apart and are both established top line NHLers. That age difference means nothing, it's really just you clinging to anything you can cling at to prop up Nylander. It's like citing age when talking about McDavid vs Matthews, it's literally a pointless fact to bring up.

wow biased i see, in your later example age would matter too it always does for young players. i didnt know i was bringing up a revolutionary concept to you when it was so basic for everyone else.

keep acting like 1.5 years doesnt matter when everyone else knows it does, i guess it helps you case so w.e keep ignoring it.

nylander is more productive at a younger age with lesser linemates that is factual.

 

[Empoleon8771]

wow biased i see, in your later example age would matter too it always does for young players. i didnt know i was bringing up a revolutionary concept to you when it was so basic for everyone else.

No, I'm just using basic logic. You're clinging to age because it benefits Nylander. I'm saying clinging to it is stupid because you're comparing a guy who's 24 to a guy who's 22.5, not a guy who's 27 to a guy who's 20.

keep acting like 1.5 years doesnt matter when everyone else knows it does, i guess it helps you case so w.e keep ignoring it.

I too like making baseless claims by pulling them out of my ass, without any proof.

nylander is more productive at a younger age with lesser linemates that is factual.

More facts:

1. Nylander came into the NHL earlier than Guentzel, because Guentzel went the NCAA route and Nylander didn't.
2. Nylander gets significantly more powerplay points than Guentzel does because he plays a lot more on better powerplay units than Guentzel does.
3. Guentzel has been a much better producer at ES over his career than Nylander.
4. Guentzel has more goals in 37 career playoff games than Nylander has had in any individual season in his career.
5. Since Guentzel's first game in the NHL (so November 21st, 2016), Guentzel has 17 more goals and 4 more points in 4 more games than Nylander has over the same window.
6. Including regular season and playoff totals, Guentzel has 76 goals and 156 points in 195 games to Nylander's 50 goals and 145 points in 207 games. If you only look at ES numbers, the difference becomes even bigger.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Do you know what's even funnier about the Guentzel vs Nylander talk? If you take away all of Guentzel's powerplay production over his entire career, Guentzel still has 15 more goals (65 goals to 50 goals) and only has 12 fewer points (133 points to 145 points) in 12 fewer games in his career, in terms of regular season and playoffs combined. Just taking away all of Guentzel's powerplay production still puts Guentzel really damn close on a per game basis to Nylander in total points, but while blowing him out of the water in terms of goals.

Just in case anyone was curious, Nylander has 35 ES goals and 103 ES points over his entire 207 game career. So taking away both of their powerplay totals results in Guentzel having a 30 goal and 30 point advantage over Nylander, while Guentzel has played in only 195 games to Nylander's 207. I still think the first paragraph speaks stronger though.

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

No, I'm just using basic logic. You're clinging to age because it benefits Nylander. I'm saying clinging to it is stupid because you're comparing a guy who's 24 to a guy who's 22.5, not a guy who's 27 to a guy who's 20.



I too like making baseless claims by pulling them out of my ass, without any proof.



More facts:

1. Nylander came into the NHL earlier than Guentzel, because Guentzel went the NCAA route and Nylander didn't.
2. Nylander gets significantly more powerplay points than Guentzel does because he plays a lot more on better powerplay units than Guentzel does.
3. Guentzel has been a much better producer at ES over his career than Nylander.
4. Guentzel has more goals in 37 career playoff games than Nylander has had in any individual season in his career.
5. Since Guentzel's first game in the NHL (so November 21st, 2016), Guentzel has 17 more goals and 4 more points in 4 more games than Nylander has over the same window.
6. Including regular season and playoff totals, Guentzel has 76 goals and 156 points in 195 games to Nylander's 50 goals and 145 points in 207 games. If you only look at ES numbers, the difference becomes even bigger.

your being biased not using logic, since when in any debate with young players has age not mattered when there was a gap?
laine and matthews age mattered to some and the age gap as less then this one so your out to lunch.

also nylander does not play "a lot more on the pp" nice lie there.

i also find it funny how even after all that, with guenz being so much better that nylander has better career highs, i guess we should give Guentzel the crosby treatment where spurts of productivity is better then actual production.
who cares how much you actually score over a season when partial plays here and there add them all up to get a better ppg is all that matters.

 

[Empoleon8771]

your being biased not using logic, since when in any debate with young players has age not mattered when there was a gap?
laine and matthews age mattered to some and the age gap as less then this one so your out to lunch.

And those people were dumb who made a big deal out of an age gap there. Just because other people did it doesn't mean it's not stupid there. Laine fans trying to cling to an age gap doesn't mean you're magically right here for trying to do the same, it's just as dumb when Laine fans tried to do that.

also nylander does not play "a lot more on the pp" nice lie there.

Are you not reading posts that you are replying too? I said Nylander plays a lot more on a better powerplay unit than Guentzel does, that's a complete fact. Guentzel is only on the Penguins 2nd powerplay unit when everyone is healthy, with guys like Maatta, Schultz and Sheary as his most common linemates. Nylander plays on a powerplay unit with guys like Matthews and Gardiner, plus he gets more TOI/game on the powerplay. That's a complete fact.

i also find it funny how even after all that, with guenz being so much better that nylander has better career highs, i guess we should give Guentzel the crosby treatment where spurts of productivity is better then actual production.
who cares how much you actually score over a season when partial plays here and there add them all up to get a better ppg is all that matters.

...what? What the hell are you even saying here? Are you really trying to criticize Guentzel for being a rookie in 2016-2017 and it only being December of this season?

Oh wow, Nylander has had better career highs. That may have to do with Guentzel having 1 full season in the NHL and not getting a ton of powerplay opportunities with great PP linemates. I wonder what's going to happen this year, seeing how Guentzel has 33 points in 36 games on the year so far.

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

And those people were dumb who made a big deal out of an age gap there. Just because other people did it doesn't mean it's not stupid there. Laine fans trying to cling to an age gap doesn't mean you're magically right here for trying to do the same, it's just as dumb when Laine fans tried to do that.



Are you not reading posts that you are replying too? I said Nylander plays a lot more on a better powerplay unit than Guentzel does, that's a complete fact. Guentzel is only on the Penguins 2nd powerplay unit, with guys like Rust, Schultz and Brassard as his most common linemates. Nylander plays on a powerplay unit with guys like Matthews and Gardiner, plus he gets more TOI/game on the powerplay. That's a complete fact.



...what? What the hell are you even saying here? Are you really trying to criticize Guentzel for being a rookie in 2016-2017 and it only being December of this season?

Oh wow, Nylander has had better career highs. That may have to do with Guentzel having 1 full season in the NHL and not getting a ton of powerplay opportunities with great PP linemates. I wonder what's going to happen this year, seeing how Guentzel has 33 points in 36 games on the year so far.

the age gap wasnt that big made it ridiculous but there is a legit age gap here i dont see how that ridiculous.
guentz is legit older and has less seasons to get to his peak, nylander still has more to prove that is pretty basic.

also you said he plays more and on a better unit, you said plays a lot more which isnt true, better sure but a lot more isnt true.

wow guenz is getting a lore more minutes and playing with better linemates and is older and is doing better who would have that.

nylander has yet to do any of that, and he has more room to grow due to age.

 

[Empoleon8771]

the age gap wasnt that big made it ridiculous but there is a legit age gap here i dont see how that ridiculous.
guentz is legit older and has less seasons to get to his peak, nylander still has more to prove that is pretty basic.

Based on what? Just because you say so? Player peaks aren't static, this isn't EHM where you stop improving once you hit 25. If anything, there is a stronger argument for Guentzel having more room to grow because he was a late bloomer. Nylander turned pro in 2014-2015, Guentzel didn't turn pro for 2 seasons after that.

also you said he plays more and on a better unit, you said plays a lot more which isnt true, better sure but a lot more isnt true.

He does play a lot more on a better unit. That's just true. He doesn't play "a lot" more, but he has 3x as much ice time with Matthews on the powerplay as Guentzel has with Crosby.

nylander has yet to do any of that, and he has more room to grow due to age.

Why doesn't Guentzel have the room to grow that Nylander does? A trend based on ages doesn't make that true.

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

Based on what? Just because you say so? Player peaks aren't static, this isn't EHM where you stop improving once you hit 25. If anything, there is a stronger argument for Guentzel having more room to grow because he was a late bloomer. Nylander turned pro in 2014-2015, Guentzel didn't turn pro for 2 seasons after that.



He does play a lot more on a better unit. That's just true. He doesn't play "a lot" more, but he has 3x as much ice time with Matthews on the powerplay as Guentzel has with Crosby.



Why doesn't Guentzel have the room to grow that Nylander does? A trend based on ages doesn't make that true.

again nylander plays with better pp units sure but he doesnt play a lot more in general is the point.

also more often then not a younger player will have more room to grow then an older player. both are highly talented player, you can say guentz has a higher ceiling and i could argue nylander, all things considered ill go with nylander since hes younger. im sure guentz has had some crazy seasons in college but heres willys track record.

Nylander has one of the best shl season for his age, one of the best ahl seasons for his age and won mvp for sweden and one of the best seasons at the world cup for his age as well.

nylander simply doesnt get ice time or opportunity here we are too deep. switch his roles with marner and he would be lighting it up probably not as well but would be dominating playing with tavares. if he didnt hold out and had training camp etc...

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

(...)

also nylander does not play "a lot more on the pp" nice lie there.

(...)

(...)

also you said he plays more and on a better unit, you said plays a lot more which isnt true, better sure but a lot more isnt true.

wow guenz is getting a lore more minutes and playing with better linemates and is older and is doing better who would have that.

(...)

I'm not sure who's lying here.

In the last 3 seasons, Guentzel has received 274:53 minutes of PP time.

Nylander ? 377:28.

37% more ice time on the PP is not a lot ?

Total ice time ?

Nylander 2800:55

Guentzel 2659:58

Guentzel is getting a lore (sic) more minutes ?

 

[Peiskos]

Leafs players seem to lose every single poll they are involved in, lmao I wonder why that is. Apparently every other player is better than anyone Toronto has. Yet the team is the 2nd best in the NHL and our players are worth so much money. Yet another contradicting joke of a thread zzz.

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

I'm not sure who's lying here.

In the last 3 seasons, Guentzel has received 274:53 minutes of PP time.

Nylander ? 377:28.

37% more ice time on the PP is not a lot ?

Total ice time ?

Nylander 2800:55

Guentzel 2659:58

Guentzel is getting a lore (sic) more minutes ?

going by per game average, due to gamse missed.

 

[Taluss]

Leafs players seem to lose every single poll they are involved in, lmao I wonder why that is. Apparently every other player is better than anyone Toronto has. Yet the team is the 2nd best in the NHL and our players are worth so much money. Yet another contradicting joke of a thread zzz.

Weird that they are winning on 2/3 of the polls on the page besides this one. Matthews is loosing vs Dahlin, that’s it.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

going by per game average, due to gamse missed.

PP time per game in the same 3 seasons:

Nylander 2:12

Guentzel 1:44

Nylander gets 27% more PP ice time per fame.

So writing that he gets a lot more PP playing time is a "nice lie" or "isn't true" (your words) ?

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

PP time per game in the same 3 seasons:

Nylander 2:12

Guentzel 1:44

Nylander gets 27% more PP ice time per fame.

So writing that he gets a lot more PP playing time is a "nice lie" or "isn't true" (your words) ?

that doesnt seem like a lot more, seems like a fair bit or a decent amount more ... wouldn't you say?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Leafs players seem to lose every single poll they are involved in, lmao I wonder why that is. Apparently every other player is better than anyone Toronto has. Yet the team is the 2nd best in the NHL and our players are worth so much money. Yet another contradicting joke of a thread zzz.

Maybe Nylander is losing to Guentzel here because Guentzel is a better player? Crazy thought.

Again, over their careers, Guentzel has a 32 goal, 66 point pace per 82 games, with 27 goals and 56 points of those being at ES per 82 games. Nylander is at a 20 goal and 57 point pace per 82 games, with 14 goals and 41 points of those being at ES per 82 games.

 

[WalkwithElias]

guentzel hands down

 

[WalkwithElias]

Maybe Nylander is losing to Guentzel here because Guentzel is a better player? Crazy thought.

That’s absurd

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

that doesnt seem like a lot more, seems like a fair bit or a decent amount more ... wouldn't you say?

It does appear to me that the "nice lie" and the "isn't true" might belong in your yard, not his, especially if you continue to claim that his statements were "nice lies" and "aren't true".

In a civilized society, an apology would be nice.

Something like "my passion overwhelmed my reason".

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

It does appear to me that the "nice lie" and the "isn't true" might belong in your yard, not his, especially if you continue to claim that his statements were "nice lies" and "aren't true".

In a civilized society, an apology would be nice.

Something like "my passion overwhelmed my reason".

apology for being right?
i wasnt wrong, he made it seem like nylander was getting a large amount more of pp time then guentz which thanks to your work isnt true. less then 30 seconds of pp time isnt a lot lmao.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

apology for being right?
i wasnt wrong, he made it seem like nylander was getting a large amount more of pp time then guentz which thanks to your work isnt true. less then 30 seconds of pp time isnt a lot lmao.

Oh well, I kind of expected that you couldn't do it.

27% isn't a lot ?

Carry on being dreadfully wrong.

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

Oh well, I kind of expected that you couldn't do it.

27% isn't a lot ?

Carry on being dreadfully wrong.

Lmao I expted that from u actually.
Ur making small numbers seem bigger then they are. Both aren't getting a lot of pp time so the percentage difference looks bigger then it is.

Is 4 mins and 4 and half mins of pp time a huge difference as well?

Lmao terrible logic here. Numbers need context cant just start throwing everything against the wall and hope it sticks.


I guess carry on being delusional
Since u want to throw insults when u start losing an argument.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

(1) Lmao I expted that from u actually.
Ur making small numbers seem bigger then they are. Both aren't getting a lot of pp time so the percentage difference looks bigger then it is.

(2) Is 4 mins and 4 and half mins of pp time a huge difference as well?

Lmao terrible logic here. Numbers need context cant just start throwing everything against the wall and hope it sticks.

I guess carry on being delusional.

(3) Since u want to throw insults when u start losing an argument.

(1) ??? Did I ever deny this ? That "Lmao" makes no rational sense.

(2) That's a 18% difference, not 27%. But it's stll sizeable. I know, I know, to you it's not...

(3) You might want to wait until I start losing one.

And I wonder who fisrtused the word "delusional".

I guess I'll have to look it up...

PS: I did and I'm back : not surprised.