Value of: Gudas/Simmonds package deal to Toronto

[ToDavid]

I knew with Hextall that we wouldn't get boned in trades -- Hextall typically made other GMs swallow a lot in deals.

With the exception of maybe a couple fanbases who know their GM is bad at trades (Edmonton), everyone says this about their own GM. In which trades did he make the other GM swallow a lot? His first move was giving away Hartnell for pretty much nothing.

 

[Starat327]

With the exception of maybe a couple fanbases who know their GM is bad at trades (Edmonton), everyone says this about their own GM. In which trades did he make the other GM swallow a lot? His first move was giving away Hartnell for pretty much nothing.

Who was bought out a year later, then exited the league a year after that. The hartnell trade was about clearing cap space, not acquiring a better player.

He also went on to:

Trade the beaten corpse of Kimmo timonen for 2 2nd round picks.
Trade Ty Mcginn for a 3rd - who we drafted goalie prospect Felix Sandstrom with
traded Braydon Coburn for Radko Gudas and a first - which was used to move up and grab Konecny, if memory serves.

 

[wankstifier]

If we can’t get a top pairing dman, I would love to bring in Simmonds and Gudas.

Simmonds + gudas + 2019 3rd
For
Connor Brown + 2019 1st + 2020 2nd + not a top prospect

Flyers wouldn’t add a pick here. Want something more valuable from the Leafs aside from “Connor Brown, 2020 2nd, and not a top prospect”

So 2019 1st + something equivalent to a 1st + something else

 

[Rich Nixon]

With the exception of maybe a couple fanbases who know their GM is bad at trades (Edmonton), everyone says this about their own GM. In which trades did he make the other GM swallow a lot? His first move was giving away Hartnell for pretty much nothing.

He was OK at trading, but he did get the Kings to swallow both Lecavalier and Luke Schenn in a single deal for a 3rd and Weal.

 

[justafan22]

If we can’t get a top pairing dman, I would love to bring in Simmonds and Gudas.

Simmonds + gudas + 2019 3rd
For
Connor Brown + 2019 1st + 2020 2nd + not a top prospect

Brown has to be in any deal for Simmonds simply for the possibility of keeping Gardiner.

While Brown is a RFA after 2020, having simmonds as a rental frees up 2.1 million next year, could be the difference in keeping Jake, which Dubas wants to do

 

[Phion Keneuf]

I’d do Connor Brown + 1st for Gudas

 

[ToDavid]

Who was bought out a year later, then exited the league a year after that. The hartnell trade was about clearing cap space, not acquiring a better player.

He was bought out 3 years later (and then played for one more year) and added two more 23+ goal seasons (including one 28 goal, 60 point season) on a $4.75 million cap hit. He was also coming off a 20 goal, 52 point season the year before, which is more important to the value of the trade at the time. That was not (or should not have been) a cap move.

 

[Starat327]

He was bought out 3 years later (and then played for one more year) and added two more 23+ goal seasons (including one 28 goal, 60 point season) on a $4.75 million cap hit. He was also coming off a 20 goal, 52 point season the year before, which is more important to the value of the trade at the time. That was not (or should not have been) a cap move.

Brqyden Schenn took his spot, and he was unnecessary here. Instead of holding on to the contract, we got rid of him. It was by no means a great trade. But it wasnt a bad trade when you look at what Hextall was trying to do.

 

[DougGilmour93]

Not bad value but I just don't see the point from the Leafs perspective. The best strategy for a cup is being perennial contenders for years. not blowing your load on one year. This means constantly restocking the cupboards with good ELC players which is hard to do when you trade away 1st rounders and prospects. The Leafs have no reason to be going after a rental winger. Gudas, on the other hand, fills a need, but Gudas alone is going to cost significantly less.

Leafs have a window right now and they should take advantage of it.
Leafs 1st is no doubt going to be towards the end of the 1st round.

Leafs 2nd, again will be at the end of the 2nd round.

Both picks are great assets but you have to give to get

Bracco, has really stepped up as of late, but I have a hard time seeing him displacing anyone on our current roster in the near future (so he becomes an expendable luxury).

Simmonds gives us a little sandpaper upfront with goal scoring ability. I also wonder if we could sign him to a respectable extension.

Gudas, although not flashy, can give us an element we’ve been lacking (crease clearing).

 

[Tripod]

He was bought out 3 years later (and then played for one more year) and added two more 23+ goal seasons (including one 28 goal, 60 point season) on a $4.75 million cap hit. He was also coming off a 20 goal, 52 point season the year before, which is more important to the value of the trade at the time. That was not (or should not have been) a cap move.

But it was.

Remember, at the time the Flyers were right at the cap limit with no solution in sight. It was a cap move...after all...why else trade a 52 point guy for picks in the summer? And Philly still has Vorobyev from that deal in the system.

And yup, CBus got a player who helped them in points. But he also was protected in the expansion draft and cost the William Karlsson. Oh, and a 1st and 3rd. CBus won short term, and it cost them long term trading for him.

Hextall was in "clear cap" mode those first 2 years. Just look at him moves:

Traded Hartnell for Umberger+4th(Wagner flipped for Vorobyev+Salinitri…who was not signed)

Traded McGinn for a 3rd(Sandstrom)…McGinn waived by SJ months later

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Traded Coburn for 1st, 3rd(Tomek) + Gudas=Got Konecky by moving up

Traded Timonen for 2 2nd rounders = used 1 pick to move up for Konecny, the other for Allison

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Traded Rinaldo for 3rd(Ustimenko) Rinaldo later waived

Traded Grossmann + Pronger for Gagner + 4th(traded to NYI for 4th in 2017…then used in package for Ratcliffe)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Traded Vinny and LSchenn for Weal + 3rd(Twarynski)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Starat327]

But it was.

Remember, at the time the Flyers were right at the cap limit with no solution in sight. It was a cap move...after all...why else trade a 52 point guy for picks in the summer? And Philly still has Vorobyev from that deal in the system.

And yup, CBus got a player who helped them in points. But he also was protected in the expansion draft and cost the William Karlsson. Oh, and a 1st and 3rd. CBus won short term, and it cost them long term trading for him.

Hextall was in "clear cap" mode those first 2 years. Just look at him moves:

Traded Hartnell for Umberger+4th(Wagner flipped for Vorobyev+Salinitri…who was not signed)

Traded McGinn for a 3rd(Sandstrom)…McGinn waived by SJ months later

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Traded Coburn for 1st, 3rd(Tomek) + Gudas=Got Konecky by moving up

Traded Timonen for 2 2nd rounders = used 1 pick to move up for Konecny, the other for Allison

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Traded Rinaldo for 3rd(Ustimenko) Rinaldo later waived

Traded Grossmann + Pronger for Gagner + 4th(traded to NYI for 4th in 2017…then used in package for Ratcliffe)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Traded Vinny and LSchenn for Weal + 3rd(Twarynski)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I knew you had posted the full history somewhere, i just couldnt find it. Thanks for posting!

 

[Snotbubbles]

But it was.

Remember, at the time the Flyers were right at the cap limit with no solution in sight. It was a cap move...after all...why else trade a 52 point guy for picks in the summer? And Philly still has Vorobyev from that deal in the system.

And yup, CBus got a player who helped them in points. But he also was protected in the expansion draft and cost the William Karlsson. Oh, and a 1st and 3rd. CBus won short term, and it cost them long term trading for him.

Hextall was in "clear cap" mode those first 2 years. Just look at him moves:

Traded Hartnell for Umberger+4th(Wagner flipped for Vorobyev+Salinitri…who was not signed)

Traded McGinn for a 3rd(Sandstrom)…McGinn waived by SJ months later

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Traded Coburn for 1st, 3rd(Tomek) + Gudas=Got Konecky by moving up

Traded Timonen for 2 2nd rounders = used 1 pick to move up for Konecny, the other for Allison

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Traded Rinaldo for 3rd(Ustimenko) Rinaldo later waived

Traded Grossmann + Pronger for Gagner + 4th(traded to NYI for 4th in 2017…then used in package for Ratcliffe)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Traded Vinny and LSchenn for Weal + 3rd(Twarynski)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

If I remember correctly, at the time, most Flyers fans knew trading Hartnell was a cap move and would hurt short-term. But real mystery was why Hextall took back Umberger in the deal though. Think they could have moved Hartnell in a better deal.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

With the exception of maybe a couple fanbases who know their GM is bad at trades (Edmonton), everyone says this about their own GM. In which trades did he make the other GM swallow a lot? His first move was giving away Hartnell for pretty much nothing.

Others have said, but here's my answer:

- Luke Schenn and Lecavalier to the Kings for a pick and Jordan Weal
- Chris Pronger and Nicklass Grossmann to the Coyotes for Sam Gagner and a pick
- Kimmo for two 2nds at the TDL
- Coburn for 1st and Radko Gudas

The Hartnell/Umberger trade wasn't a "hockey" trade for us of course-- it was about undoing the nonsense that the Flyers cap situation was long-term (thanks to Holmgren). Hexy could've done better here, but it was sort of an anomaly of a trade.

I'm not saying Hextall is the trading master of all time, but what I am saying is that there's never been a trade made by him where I thought we got royally screwed. The closest one was the Hartnell/Umby one because we all knew we got the worse player even though it was better for us long-term.

 

[NoName]

No thank you.

We finally managed to jettison Babcock's "Gud Pros", this past summer (thank you Islanders), we don't need more of the similar mold from Philly. Simmons has value, but not at the price-point he would command from Philly. We don't need a Gudas. At all.

If Philly has a legit top-4 RHD on the block though then we can talk shop, since that is the one clear need in Toronto's roster.

 

[Starat327]

If I remember correctly, at the time, most Flyers fans knew trading Hartnell was a cap move and would hurt short-term. But real mystery was why Hextall took back Umberger in the deal though. Think they could have moved Hartnell in a better deal.

Hartnell had a NMC, and that severely restricted his availble landiing destinations. IIRC, Columbus also needed to remain cap neutral.

 

[Starat327]

No thank you.

We finally managed to jettison Babcock's "Gud Pros", this past summer (thank you Islanders), we don't need more of the similar mold from Philly. Simmons has value, but not at the price-point he would command from Philly. We don't need a Gudas. At all.

If Philly has a legit top-4 RHD on the block though then we can talk shop, since that is the one clear need in Toronto's roster.

Odd, thats actually the point of this thread. Though i doubt hes actually available at this point in time.

 

[NoName]

Odd, thats actually the point of this thread. Though i doubt hes actually available at this point in time.

Wait, you don't mean Gudas do you? Because... no. I don't see the talent there and at his age, I think on a contender he is 3rd pairing and that doesn't plug the hole on Toronto's roster.

 

[x DeCruze]

Wait, you don't mean Gudas do you? Because... no.

If you barely watch Gudas, which judging by your post, don't try to comment on his play and act like you know how he plays.

 

[Starat327]

Wait, you don't mean Gudas do you? Because... no. I don't see the talent there and at his age, I think on a contender he is 3rd pairing and that doesn't plug the hole on Toronto's roster.

I do. And he is a legit top 4 guy. Also, hes 28. I dont think thats nearly old enough to be considered washed up.

Perhaps youd like to talk more about players you clearly dont watch, though? I could use some entertainment.

 

[NoName]

If you barely watch Gudas, which judging by your post, don't try to comment on his play and act like you know how he plays.

I admit the only games with Philly I watched in totality were those Philly played against Toronto and Winnipeg... which are the two teams I follow. I was not particularly impressed with his performance those games; he looked slow in that Leafs game particularly.

Judging by your comment I imagine you must watch all the games of every single player in any possible trade before you comment on it, of course, but unfortunately some of us cannot watch every hockey game for all teams. For that I suppose we will have to just rely on you and your unimpeachable opinions as facts

 

[x DeCruze]

I admit the only games with Philly I watched in totality were those Philly played against Toronto and Winnipeg... which are the two teams I follow. I was not particularly impressed with his performance those games; he looked slow in that Leafs game particularly.

Judging by your comment I imagine you must watch all the games of every single player in any possible trade before you comment on it, of course, but unfortunately some of us cannot watch every hockey game for all teams. For that I suppose we will have to just rely on you and your unimpeachable opinions as facts

I don't pretend to know about players I dont watch. I'm not commenting on any player but Gudas but keep spinning your story.

 

[NoName]

I do. And he is a legit top 4 guy. Also, hes 28. I dont think thats nearly old enough to be considered washed up.

Perhaps youd like to talk more about players you clearly dont watch, though? I could use some entertainment.

Not washed up at all at 28, late prime. I just meant that at his age, he pretty much is the player he is. If he were say 21, then you could also sell him for way more based on potential as well as current output.

For entertainment you can always watch the Flyers lose, and that defense play like a sieve, that can be fun

 

[Tripod]

I knew you had posted the full history somewhere, i just couldnt find it. Thanks for posting!

Anytime you want it, let me know. I could PM you the whole thing.

 

[NoName]

I don't pretend to know about players I dont watch. I'm not commenting on any player but Gudas but keep spinning your story.

Well from what I have seen of him , I don't think he moves the needle much for Toronto, so pass. Toronto needs to build a trade for a player that can actually put this team over the top and that just isn't Gudas. Feel free to disagree, but don't expect Toronto to be looking to acquire him, or any other team to pay a king's ransom for him.

 

[Bedards Dad]

Wow Take our garbage for your player... and than get a maybe.
Typical Leaf proposal.

I wouldn't do Simmonds for Kap 1 for 1.

Simmonds is good, but not great, so keep the 1st in, up the 3rd to a 2nd and add Brown.