Gretzky's Playoff Stats

[Big Phil]

When Robinson's number was retired, anyone currently wearing 42 was allowed to retain it until they retire. I believe a couple of people still do. Mariano Rivera and someone else maybe? No reason the NHL couldn't do the same thing.

In some sense, the fact that it's also Beliveau's number just increases the reason to retire it league-wide.

However, where does it end? What about #9? That belonged to Howe, Richard and Hull. Three players who all belong on top 10 lists. I think the idea with Gretzky is that he wore an obscure number and he's almost unanimously regarded as the best to ever play the game. After that, it kind of gets to be a can of worms regarding the rest of the names doesn't it? Where do you draw the line?

I think that's why they stopped the rule of waiving the three year wait for HHOF induction. Gretzky was the last one. Since him there have been maybe one or two players (Roy, Bourque) who might have deserved to have their waiting period waived, but that's it, and even that's pushing it a bit. I think it's good when take stuff like that out because you'll never have everyone happy

 

[WingsFan95]

Yes, Orr was a better hockey player than Robinson a baseball player (although he's no slouch either) but it is the overall impact that Robinson gave. It can be argued that no player in all of sports had that impact. Perhaps Babe Ruth for literally changing the way the game is played.

Anyway, Gretzky had his number retired over Orr for a couple of reasons. For starters nobody wore #99. Sure Wilf Paiemant did but it became an exclusive number after a while. Secondly, Orr wore #4 which is a popular number even today. Beliveau wore it before him too. If you are going to retire a league wide number, it better be a rare number nobody wears. #99 is the perfect case for that.

I'm gonna go get a #99 Brian Lawton jersey. Try and stop me.


Seriously though I do see the fact it was a unique number, but so was Lemieux.

 

[Big Phil]

I'm gonna go get a #99 Brian Lawton jersey. Try and stop me.

I think they burned them along with the Patrick Stefan and Alex Daigle jerseys, haha

Seriously though I do see the fact it was a unique number, but so was Lemieux

Which leads to the problem of where does it end? I think if you do it for likes of Lemieux then you'd have to for Orr and Howe. But since Lemieux is such an oddball number I don't think anyone will ever wear that again in our lifetime since it would be a hotdog thing to do.

 

[shazariahl]

I think they burned them along with the Patrick Stefan and Alex Daigle jerseys, haha



Which leads to the problem of where does it end? I think if you do it for likes of Lemieux then you'd have to for Orr and Howe. But since Lemieux is such an oddball number I don't think anyone will ever wear that again in our lifetime since it would be a hotdog thing to do.

Agreed. And what about Jagr? 68 is pretty unique, and the man did win 5 Art Ross trophies. People on TSN (who are idiots, just to clear that up) think Crosby could be a greatest player of all time. And 89 is a pretty unique number - better retire that one.

IMO Gretzky's number shouldn't have even been retired league wide, but whatever. Its done, and its not like they're going to un-retire it. But IMO its a silly thing to do. Why continue to do it even more?

 

[Iain Fyffe]

However, where does it end? What about #9?

Maybe. Each number would have to be considered on its own merits.

 

[Sens Rule]

While there is some debate as to whether Orr or Mario or Howe was as good as Gretzky... with a league wide retirement of a jersey number it is not really much of an argument. Gretzky owns nearly EVERY conveivable record... Most points, assists, goals... regular season career, playoff career, regular single season and all but goals in a single playoff season. He owns pretty much 80-90% of important records for single season and career. It would be easier to list the records HE DOES NOT OWN... then the records he does.

He has the MOST unique number in NHL history. He has the most widely known number. He is by far the most famous hockey player EVER.

It is all well and good to argue Mario or Orr could be better... but really the argument is for hockey experts and involves a lot of what ifs... and projections and such. If you just look at the numbers.. and the fame... and the results and WHAT ACTUALLY Happened... it is easy to see why Gretzky has his number retired league wide and no one else every will have that for them.

 

[Big Phil]

How great was Gretzky? Well, he acheieved another record AFTER retirement (Lemieux actually led in career PPG upon his retirement in 1997 but his comeback from 2000-'06 dropped his career PPG slightly to give Gretzky the record back)

 

[BostonAJ]

Did you guys see Gretzky during the playoffs? He looks like an old, Polish woman now. Not that he was ever the most masculine-looking fellow.

 

[WingsFan95]

While there is some debate as to whether Orr or Mario or Howe was as good as Gretzky... with a league wide retirement of a jersey number it is not really much of an argument. Gretzky owns nearly EVERY conveivable record... Most points, assists, goals... regular season career, playoff career, regular single season and all but goals in a single playoff season. He owns pretty much 80-90% of important records for single season and career. It would be easier to list the records HE DOES NOT OWN... then the records he does.

He has the MOST unique number in NHL history. He has the most widely known number. He is by far the most famous hockey player EVER.

It is all well and good to argue Mario or Orr could be better... but really the argument is for hockey experts and involves a lot of what ifs... and projections and such. If you just look at the numbers.. and the fame... and the results and WHAT ACTUALLY Happened... it is easy to see why Gretzky has his number retired league wide and no one else every will have that for them.

In the NFL the most known legend is probably Montana, Brady/Manning or Favre.

All while Brown is probably the best and Don Hutson owns most of the records for his position.

 

[Sens Rule]

In the NFL the most known legend is probably Montana, Brady/Manning or Favre.

All while Brown is probably the best and Don Hutson owns most of the records for his position.

Did they have a unique number?

Jim Brown is probably the best Football player ever. but he had a very short career and did very bad things like beat up women.

But there is no clear BEST NFL player. There is no NFLer with a number like 99... that played 20 seasons...

 

[blogofmike]

How great was Gretzky? Well, he acheieved another record AFTER retirement (Lemieux actually led in career PPG upon his retirement in 1997 but his comeback from 2000-'06 dropped his career PPG slightly to give Gretzky the record back)

Gretzky had the record at the end of the 1997 season. He slowed down at age 37-38 and allowed Mario to "break" the record while retired. Gretzky returned the favour just before the lockout.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/points_per_game_progress.html

In the NFL the most known legend is probably Montana, Brady/Manning or Favre.

All while Brown is probably the best and Don Hutson owns most of the records for his position.

I think Hutson's records got broken by Jerry Rice, and being unable to narrow down the most known NFL legend to one name doesn't help your case.

And is Brown really the best? If so, 99 deserves to be retired. This thread was about playoff stats, and Wayne Gretzky decimates Brown in that regard. 3.65 YPC doesn't compare to Gretzky's playoff performances.

Brown's down to an even 3 yards per carry if you ignore a single run. He got a fifth of his career playoff yardage (46 of 241) on a single run in the 1964 Championship game that was mostly due to his blocking. (Good cutback though.) That game was his only good playoff performance and the closest he got to a TD was being stuffed on 3 straight runs from the 1-yard line.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BrowJi00/gamelog/post/

Gretzky was much better at hockey than Jim Brown was at football. In Gretzky's 20 seasons his career assist total is higher than the best 20 seasons from every other player ever, and that's counting half seasons due to injury and the lockout, as well as seasons where he was past his prime. Brown did not dominate rushing to anywhere near the same degree.

 

[Dangler99*]

Gretzky Playoff stats are so incredible that You Can take away like Half of his Hart's And Art Ross Trophies and he would probably still be regarding as the best or 2nd best of all time. 382 points. Thats magnificent.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Maybe. Each number would have to be considered on its own merits.

Howe
Orr
-
-
Lemieux

 

[cenas*]

And Jarri Kurri holds the all-time record with 19 goals in 18 games in 85. Yes he had Gretz passing him the puck but the point is Gretz himself didn't score a multitude of goals.

Cups won by Kurri after Gretzky left: 1
Cups won by Gretzky after leaving Kurri: 0

 

[Infinite Vision*]

Gretzky had the record at the end of the 1997 season. He slowed down at age 37-38 and allowed Mario to "break" the record while retired. Gretzky returned the favour just before the lockout.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/points_per_game_progress.html



I think Hutson's records got broken by Jerry Rice, and being unable to narrow down the most known NFL legend to one name doesn't help your case.

And is Brown really the best? If so, 99 deserves to be retired. This thread was about playoff stats, and Wayne Gretzky decimates Brown in that regard. 3.65 YPC doesn't compare to Gretzky's playoff performances.

Brown's down to an even 3 yards per carry if you ignore a single run. He got a fifth of his career playoff yardage (46 of 241) on a single run in the 1964 Championship game that was mostly due to his blocking. (Good cutback though.) That game was his only good playoff performance and the closest he got to a TD was being stuffed on 3 straight runs from the 1-yard line.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BrowJi00/gamelog/post/

Gretzky was much better at hockey than Jim Brown was at football. In Gretzky's 20 seasons his career assist total is higher than the best 20 seasons from every other player ever, and that's counting half seasons due to injury and the lockout, as well as seasons where he was past his prime. Brown did not dominate rushing to anywhere near the same degree.

That's honestly insane. Would love to see the comparison and how close it is. Also willing to bet the best 20 seasons from other players has more games played as well.

 

[WingsFan95]

Gretzky's career stats are not debatable.

The arguement for Gretzky that is both logical and true is that he had arguably the greatest career in all of sport.

This plays into his playoff stats as well.

Gretzky is 16th in playoff games played.

Guys who weren't on his teams that are above him are:

1. Chris Chelios 266
2. Nicklas Lidstrom 258
3. Patrick Roy* 247
5. Claude Lemieux 234
6. Scott Stevens* 233
7. Guy Carbonneau 231
8. Larry Robinson* 227
10. Kris Draper
11. Bryan Trottier
12. Mike Keane
13. Larry Murphy
14. Raymond Bourque

Chelions, Bourques and essentially all those guys played many seasons, I think a good 20+ like Gretzky.

Roy is the only goalie on that list.

Now of those players I'd say only Lidstrom challeges Gretz in playoff greatness, as a defenseman and at least part of the Wings leadership making 6 Cup Finals and winning 4 in this era is phenominal.

But point remains are Gretzky's career numbers indicative of him being the best playoff performer? I don't think it's as much a certainty and some here would claim.

 

[shazariahl]

In the NFL the most known legend is probably Montana, Brady/Manning or Favre.

All while Brown is probably the best and Don Hutson owns most of the records for his position.

The closest comparison in football is probably Rice. Much like Gretzky, his career stats are so far ahead of everyone else that they may never be beaten. Rice's dominance over other wide recievers is far greater than any statistical dominance in other "key" positions, like QB or RB (in those positions, you can usually name 5 or 6 people, and make strong arguements for any of them as being the best ever. When it comes to wide recievers, the ONLY name on that list is Jerry Rice).

However, unlike Gretzky, Rice's single season records have mostly be broken. His dominance is mostly due to a long, productive career, always being among the best at his position. He had many seasons where he was clearly the best, but not really to the same degree of separation that Gretzky had over his peers. Gretzky not only had the longevity of Jerry Rice, with a similar lengthy and productive career, but he also dominated in his prime like few athletes in team sports have managed to do.

Basically, as great as Rice was, even he can't compare to Gretzky.

 

[CarlWinslow]

How great was Gretzky? Well, he acheieved another record AFTER retirement (Lemieux actually led in career PPG upon his retirement in 1997 but his comeback from 2000-'06 dropped his career PPG slightly to give Gretzky the record back)

This is one oft-forgotten component of the debate. So many pro-Lemieux guys refuse to acknowledge the clear disadvantage Gretzky has due to the number of post-prime games he played.

 

[WingsFan95]

The closest comparison in football is probably Rice. Much like Gretzky, his career stats are so far ahead of everyone else that they may never be beaten. Rice's dominance over other wide recievers is far greater than any statistical dominance in other "key" positions, like QB or RB (in those positions, you can usually name 5 or 6 people, and make strong arguements for any of them as being the best ever. When it comes to wide recievers, the ONLY name on that list is Jerry Rice).

However, unlike Gretzky, Rice's single season records have mostly be broken. His dominance is mostly due to a long, productive career, always being among the best at his position. He had many seasons where he was clearly the best, but not really to the same degree of separation that Gretzky had over his peers. Gretzky not only had the longevity of Jerry Rice, with a similar lengthy and productive career, but he also dominated in his prime like few athletes in team sports have managed to do.

Basically, as great as Rice was, even he can't compare to Gretzky.

Don Hutson. Good day.

 

[CarlWinslow]

The closest comparison in football is probably Rice. Much like Gretzky, his career stats are so far ahead of everyone else that they may never be beaten. Rice's dominance over other wide recievers is far greater than any statistical dominance in other "key" positions, like QB or RB (in those positions, you can usually name 5 or 6 people, and make strong arguements for any of them as being the best ever. When it comes to wide recievers, the ONLY name on that list is Jerry Rice).

However, unlike Gretzky, Rice's single season records have mostly be broken. His dominance is mostly due to a long, productive career, always being among the best at his position. He had many seasons where he was clearly the best, but not really to the same degree of separation that Gretzky had over his peers. Gretzky not only had the longevity of Jerry Rice, with a similar lengthy and productive career, but he also dominated in his prime like few athletes in team sports have managed to do.

Basically, as great as Rice was, even he can't compare to Gretzky.

In defense of Rice, his single season of 22 TDs is far more impressive than Moss. Rice did it in a shortened season that only lasted 12 games.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

That's honestly insane. Would love to see the comparison and how close it is. Also willing to bet the best 20 seasons from other players has more games played as well.

To take it one step further - in Gretzky's 20-season career, he scored 2,857 points.

If you add up the points scored in the 20 best non-Gretzky seasons ever, you'd get 2,979 points.

During his career (including years on bad teams, while injured, and a lockout season) Gretzky scored 96% as much as the twenty best seasons from every other player in NHL history.

I realize that era matters (the twenty best non-Gretzky seasons are all from 1971 to 1996, excluding Howe, Hull, Beliveau and a few other players who almost certainly had some top-twenty all-time seasons) but I still find this to be one of the most simple and stunning observations on Gretzky's greatness.

 

[BM67]

Gretzky NHL vs highest scorer not named Gretzky

Season|WG Year|WG Total|Player|Year|Total
78-79|WHA|0|Trottier|134|134
79-80|137|137|Dionne|137|271
80-81|164|301|Dionne|135|406
81-82|212|513|Bossy|147|553
82-83|196|709|Stastny|124|677
83-84|205|914|Coffey|126|803
84-85|208|1122|Kurri|135|938
85-86|215|1337|Lemieux|141|1079
86-87|183|1520|Kurri|108|1187
87-88|149|1669|Lemieux|168|1355
88-89|168|1837|Lemieux|199|1554
89-90|142|1979|Messier|129|1683
90-91|163|2142|Hull|131|1814
91-92|121|2263|Lemieux|131|1945
92-93|65|2328|Lemieux|160|2105
93-94|130|2458|Fedorov|120|2225
94-95|48|2506|Jagr|70|2295
95-96|102|2608|Lemieux|161|2456
96-97|97|2705|Lemieux|122|2578
97-98|90|2795|Jagr|102|2680
98-99|62|2857|Jagr|127|2807

 

[blogofmike]

Gretzky NHL vs highest scorer not named Gretzky

Season|WG Year|WG Total|Player|Year|Total
78-79|WHA|0|Trottier|134|134
79-80|137|137|Dionne|137|271
80-81|164|301|Dionne|135|406
81-82|212|513|Bossy|147|553
82-83|196|709|Stastny|124|677
83-84|205|914|Coffey|126|803
84-85|208|1122|Kurri|135|938
85-86|215|1337|Lemieux|141|1079
86-87|183|1520|Kurri|108|1187
87-88|149|1669|Lemieux|168|1355
88-89|168|1837|Lemieux|199|1554
89-90|142|1979|Messier|129|1683
90-91|163|2142|Hull|131|1814
91-92|121|2263|Lemieux|131|1945
92-93|65|2328|Lemieux|160|2105
93-94|130|2458|Fedorov|120|2225
94-95|48|2506|Jagr|70|2295
95-96|102|2608|Lemieux|161|2456
96-97|97|2705|Lemieux|122|2578
97-98|90|2795|Jagr|102|2680
98-99|62|2857|Jagr|127|2807

AND it looks like he gave Team Not Gretzky a free 134 points from 1979. The apparent head start didn't seem to help though...

 

[BostonAJ]

He was a total wuss, tho. Like, Urkel kind of wuss. Semenko as a linemate??? Seriously???

 

[tazzy19]

He was a total wuss, tho. Like, Urkel kind of wuss. Semenko as a linemate??? Seriously???

Statistically blowing away EVERY PLAYER IN HISTORY, despite being a "total wuss"???? Seriously????