Gretzky's Playoff Stats

[Hawkey Town 18]

Gretzky's teams basically never got upset in the playoffs. The only instance is the loss to Calgary in 86' off the flukey own goal by Steve Smith in game 7, and that was a very good Calgary team specifically built to counter the Oilers. He also carried a non-elite team to the Finals in 93' with LA, and also led them to a huge upset over the Oilers in his first year there in 89'.

Lemieux does not stack up to this, twice he was on Cup favorites that got majorly upset in 93' and 96', and he never carried his team on his back to upset better teams.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Gretzky's teams basically never got upset in the playoffs. The only instance is the loss to Calgary in 86' off the flukey own goal by Steve Smith in game 7

Sure, unless you count 1982, when his 111-point Oilers lost to the 63-point Kings, or 1991, when his 102-point Kings lost to the 80-point Oilers. Those seem like pretty big upsets to me, especially the first one.

Again, Gretzky's record doesn't need hyperbole to prop it up. His teams were not invincible in the playoffs.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Everyone's scoring pace usually drops in the playoffs, because overall scoring itself drops in the playoffs. He basically dominated his peers just as much in the playoffs as in the regular season, possibly slightly less? Which is to be expected.

Exactly. He was dominant in the regular season, and he was dominant in the playoffs. Claims that he transformed into some superhuman playoff beast seem way off-base.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Sure, unless you count 1982, when his 111-point Oilers lost to the 63-point Kings, or 1991, when his 102-point Kings lost to the 80-point Oilers. Those seem like pretty big upsets to me, especially the first one.

Again, Gretzky's record doesn't need hyperbole to prop it up. His teams were not invincible in the playoffs.

Can't believe I forgot about the Miracle on Manchester, but at least that was when the whole team was very young. The point totals in 91' make it look worse than it was. Mark Messier missed a ton of games that year, so they were a better team than their record indicated.


You are correct that my statement that Gretzky NEVER got upset was exaggerating, but it is another area that when comparing to Lemieux, Gretzky looks better. Lemieux's upsets in 93' and 96' were much worse than anything that ever happened to Gretzky.

 

[BM67]

Player|GP|G|A|Pts|Player|G|A|Pts
Gretzky 80-87|101|69|140|209|Other|81|99|150
Gretzky 88-97|107|53|120|173|Other|70|86|136
Mario 89-01|107|76|96|172|Other|65|100|144

Mario played in the playoffs 8 times. If you only count Gretzky's last 8 playoff appearances (88-97), he scores 173 points in 107 games. That is 1 more point that Mario's career total in the same number of games. 6 of the playoff seasons match, with Gretzky playing in 88 and 90, and Mario playing in 94 and 01.

I've expanded this to include a total for the best teammate score each season in goals, assists and points.

 

[WingsFan95]

Most seasons his playoff PPG was lower than his regular season mark, which of course is typical and is not a blot against him by itself. If you figure expected points for each playoff year based on his regular season scoring that year, you'd expect him to have put up 436.5 playoff points, and he actually had 382, a dropoff of 12.5%. Again, this is probably a very typical number, and might actually be a below average reduction in scoring rate.

But the hyperbole in your post is not necessary. Gretzky's career does not need exaggeration to establish its greatness. And this type of hyperbolic pumping up of 99 may be what creates those like 99wasnotthebest, who get tired of hearing how he was the greatest at everything all the time. You're even attributing the success of his former teammates to him when he no longer played with them. Come on, implying Lemieux won the Cup because he briefly played with Gretzky four years earlier? There's no need for that.

Indeed my name is to honor all those NHL fans who saw both Orr and Gretzky, and they usually pick Orr.

I also think it an insult to have Gretzky's number retired league wide but not Orr.

Mario played in the playoffs 8 times. If you only count Gretzky's last 8 playoff appearances (88-97), he scores 173 points in 107 games. That is 1 more point that Mario's career total in the same number of games. 6 of the playoff seasons match, with Gretzky playing in 88 and 90, and Mario playing in 94 and 01.

I've expanded this to include a total for the best teammate score each season in goals, assists and points.

The second teammate totals show Lemieux was the more valuable goal scorer for his team.

And still I think it's only fair to show the entire team's output.

85 Oilers where Gretzky scored 47 points.
The rest of the team combined for 206 points.

Now when Lemieux scored 44 in 91.
The rest of the team combined scored 210 points.

This is close, but I'll add Stevens and Jagr were his line-mates, and Stevens most will agree was a pawn.

Recchie, Francis and Mullen actually scored more combined.

But I digress those seasons are comparable, now add Lemieux's 92 into the mix:

The rest of the team scored 186 points, most of those players playing 19-21 games to Lemieux's 15.

Looking at Stevens, who scored 28 points to Lemieux's 34 despite playing 6 more games, I'd like to see the 6 playoff games Stevens played without Lemieux.



And for the guy who said Lemieux losing to the Beezer in the Conference Finals as being a bigger upset than anytime Gretzky's team lost? How so? Did Gretzky face many Vezina goalies? Were they on fire like Beezer? And as for the Islanders loss, the Pens goaltender/s did let in 5 goals in two games, not like you can blame Lemieux for not scoring 4 goals for his team to succumb the shortcomings.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

And for the guy who said Lemieux losing to the Beezer in the Conference Finals as being a bigger upset than anytime Gretzky's team lost? How so? Did Gretzky face many Vezina goalies? Were they on fire like Beezer? And as for the Islanders loss, the Pens goaltender/s did let in 5 goals in two games, not like you can blame Lemieux for not scoring 4 goals for his team to succumb the shortcomings.

No, Gretzky never faced any good goalies. Come on, in the Finals alone he faced and defeated Billy Smith and a Conn Smythe winning Ron Hextall.

Many considered the 93' Penguins to be the better than the Cup winning teams of the previous 2 years, no one was even close to them in the regular season with 119 points, and they lost in the first round to an Islanders team that was only a few games over .500. That's about as big an upset as you can get.

The Penguins were easily the favorite to come out of the East in 96' and lost to a gritty Panther team with a hot goalie. Colorado showed just how pedestrian that Florida team was in the Finals easily defeating them in 4 straight.

 

[WingsFan95]

No, Gretzky never faced any good goalies. Come on, in the Finals alone he faced and defeated Billy Smith and a Conn Smythe winning Ron Hextall.

Many considered the 93' Penguins to be the better than the Cup winning teams of the previous 2 years, no one was even close to them in the regular season with 119 points, and they lost in the first round to an Islanders team that was only a few games over .500. That's about as big an upset as you can get.

The Penguins were easily the favorite to come out of the East in 96' and lost to a gritty Panther team with a hot goalie. Colorado showed just how pedestrian that Florida team was in the Finals easily defeating them in 4 straight.

First off, it was the 2nd round the Pens lost to the Isle.

And those Islanders were no chumps, as I've heard they were in close with the eventual 93 Cup Champ Habs and lost two close games and were then beat in the final game because of a goalie collapse.

And the 96 Penguins were lackluster on defense as most will agree, Lemieux and that offense was impressive enough carrying that team. Who the hell is Ken Wregget? Can YOU tell me? And it was a 7 game series.

The Kings beating Gretz and his DEFENSIVE skills in that 82 series was a joke, a guy posted a long rant about it about a month ago and I went and watched those entire 5 games, that's beyond embarrassment what happened.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The Kings beating Gretz and his DEFENSIVE skills in that 82 series was a joke, a guy posted a long rant about it about a month ago and I went and watched those entire 5 games, that's beyond embarrassment what happened.

So it was Gretzky's play that led to the Kings upsetting the Oilers in 82? Did you observe the ridiculously high scores of those games? I guess Gretzky should be faulted for being incapable of stopping a puck. The only joke here is you and your posts.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

I also think it an insult to have Gretzky's number retired league wide but not Orr.

This, I can get on board with. Number 4 should be retired league-wide.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Can't believe I forgot about the Miracle on Manchester, but at least that was when the whole team was very young. The point totals in 91' make it look worse than it was. Mark Messier missed a ton of games that year, so they were a better team than their record indicated.

Unless you think Messier would make up 20 points in the standings in the one-third of a season he missed (making him worth 60 points over a full season), the Oilers were still the underdogs there.

You are correct that my statement that Gretzky NEVER got upset was exaggerating, but it is another area that when comparing to Lemieux, Gretzky looks better.

This is my point. You don't need exaggeration to make Gretzky look impressive.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

First off, it was the 2nd round the Pens lost to the Isle.

And those Islanders were no chumps, as I've heard they were in close with the eventual 93 Cup Champ Habs and lost two close games and were then beat in the final game because of a goalie collapse.

And the 96 Penguins were lackluster on defense as most will agree, Lemieux and that offense was impressive enough carrying that team. Who the hell is Ken Wregget? Can YOU tell me? And it was a 7 game series.

The Kings beating Gretz and his DEFENSIVE skills in that 82 series was a joke, a guy posted a long rant about it about a month ago and I went and watched those entire 5 games, that's beyond embarrassment what happened.

You are correct about Round 2 in 93', but it was still a huge upset. They were monsters in the regular season and a lot of their top players were right in the primes of their career.

As for 96', Tom Barasso was the Penguins goalie for 6 of the 7 games, so Wregget is not a factor. Barrasso is at least a top 40 goalie all time. Also, I wouldn't be throwing out any "Who the hell is blank" statements either, not before looking at that Panthers roster. Scott Mellanby and Rob Niedermayer were their top regular season scorers. They played great collectively and had awesome goaltending, but a team as talented as the Penguins should have beat them easily. As I said before, Colorado handily exposed them for what they were in the Finals.


The Miracle on Manchester was definitely an upset, but look how young those Oiler teams were. Gretzky, Kurri, Anderson, Coffey, Messier, Fuhr all 21 or younger, Kevin Lowe 22. There's only a handful of guys over 25 on that team. They lost because of inexperience, and it was shown perfectly in the famous 3rd period comeback game. Also, with it only being a 5 game series there was less time for the young players to adjust. Still an upset, but not nearly as bad as the two Penguins examples.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Unless you think Messier would make up 20 points in the standings in the one-third of a season he missed (making him worth 60 points over a full season), the Oilers were still the underdogs there.

I never said they were even, I said it was closer than the standings indicated. Messier is probably good for at least 10 points versus a replacement level player. That's only 5 games going from losses to wins. That seems reasonable to me considering he was the reigning Hart Trophy winner. They also had just won a Stanley Cup the year before with only a 90pt regular season. They had the experience and clearly knew how to get it done in the playoffs.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

This, I can get on board with. Number 4 should be retired league-wide.

So does that mean Montreal, NJ, etc have to unretire their #4s? Gretzky's 99 was a unique number, and he captured the casual fan's dedication more than any other player. To many fans, the name "Gretzky" is still synonymous with hockey.

 

[WingsFan95]

So it was Gretzky's play that led to the Kings upsetting the Oilers in 82? Did you observe the ridiculously high scores of those games? I guess Gretzky should be faulted for being incapable of stopping a puck. The only joke here is you and your posts.

One poster claimed Gretz was great defensively in the playoffs, I was referring to that.

As for 96', Tom Barasso was the Penguins goalie for 6 of the 7 games, so Wregget is not a factor. Barrasso is at least a top 40 goalie all time. Also, I wouldn't be throwing out any "Who the hell is blank" statements either, not before looking at that Panthers roster. Scott Mellanby and Rob Niedermayer were their top regular season scorers. They played great collectively and had awesome goaltending, but a team as talented as the Penguins should have beat them easily. As I said before, Colorado handily exposed them for what they were in the Finals.


The Miracle on Manchester was definitely an upset, but look how young those Oiler teams were. Gretzky, Kurri, Anderson, Coffey, Messier, Fuhr all 21 or younger, Kevin Lowe 22. There's only a handful of guys over 25 on that team. They lost because of inexperience, and it was shown perfectly in the famous 3rd period comeback game. Also, with it only being a 5 game series there was less time for the young players to adjust. Still an upset, but not nearly as bad as the two Penguins examples.

Barrasso was way past his prime, his resurgence in the back to back Cup runs was a great story and that had been 4 years before. But yes, my mistake for assuming Wregget was the main goalie, though he did start more than once that playoff year.

And I don't know how well the Avs would have done against the Pens had they met but that team was talented and goal-tending wise a no contest, maybe the Pens would have outscored them once or twice but winning the entire series I'm not too sure.

I just don't see how you can point to those however and say they're worse than 82 against the Kings. That was a first round matchup, the Oil were up 5-0 in the 3rd with the series tied 1-1. And in the next round the Kings got crapped on by the Nucks.

Looking up Games 4 and 5 of that series I am unable to get the box scores, but the Oilers beat the Kings 3-2 in their wins including Game 4. I'm not going to lay any blame on Gretz for the loss, but I can't see how anyone could lay blame on Lemieux for losing in 96 either.

 

[Big Phil]

First off, it was the 2nd round the Pens lost to the Isle.

And those Islanders were no chumps, as I've heard they were in close with the eventual 93 Cup Champ Habs and lost two close games and were then beat in the final game because of a goalie collapse.

And the 96 Penguins were lackluster on defense as most will agree, Lemieux and that offense was impressive enough carrying that team. Who the hell is Ken Wregget? Can YOU tell me? And it was a 7 game series.

The Kings beating Gretz and his DEFENSIVE skills in that 82 series was a joke, a guy posted a long rant about it about a month ago and I went and watched those entire 5 games, that's beyond embarrassment what happened.

If we're going to sit here and judge a superstar's playoff woe before they became a dynasty and learned how to win then we look no further than the Islanders prior to 1980. The Oilers are no different in 1982. They were a young cocky team who hadn't learned many valuable lessons yet. Gretzky was 21. You also failed to mention a year earlier how he scored 21 points in 9 playoff games while taking the eventual champ Isles to 6 games but I won't let it get in the way of a good story.

Orr himself and the Bruins had lapses where they got carried away. 1971? Look no further than Game 2. I'm sure Orr himself would admit to having a bad game. If we can forgive him for that why can't we forgive a 21 year old Gretzky in 1982 BEFORE he reached 6 finals and 4 Cups?

Plus the list goes on. Yzerman, Sakic, Belfour, etc. in recent years are all superstars who lost (sometimes embarassingly) before they learned how to win. 1982 WAS an embarassment for the Oilers, however, the building blocks from those lessons gave the best player of all-time the tools to create one of the best teams ever.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It should also be noted that in 1992-93, the Kings defeated three far superior teams and faced a considerably better Montreal team during the Finals (who defeated the Kings in three consecutive overtimes).

Gretzky missed half of that season with a herniated disc in his lower back and he had an average performance based on his standards with 65 points in 45 games. He would go on to lead the Kings past the top two teams in his division and a Toronto team that was expected to meet Montreal in the Finals.

Gretzky has said that his performance in that series was probably his best. This was after Bob McKenzie had criticized his play, writing that Gretzky was playing as if he had a piano on his back. Of course, he would lead the playoffs in all scoring categories with 15 goals, 25 assists and 40 points. Gretz was also 32 at the time, and he did this with a bad back that nearly forced him to retire.

 

[WingsFan95]

It should also be noted that in 1992-93, the Kings defeated three far superior teams and faced a considerably better Montreal team during the Finals (who defeated the Kings in three consecutive overtimes).

Gretzky missed half of that season with a herniated disc in his lower back and he had an average performance based on his standards with 65 points in 45 games. He would go on to lead the Kings past the top two teams in his division and a Toronto team that was expected to meet Montreal in the Finals.

Gretzky has said that his performance in that series was probably his best. This was after Bob McKenzie had criticized his play, writing that Gretzky was playing as if he had a piano on his back. Of course, he would lead the playoffs in all scoring categories with 15 goals, 25 assists and 40 points. Gretz was also 32 at the time, and he did this with a bad back that nearly forced him to retire.

Please don't get me started on the 93 East Final. Gretz was a ***** who should have been penalized and the Leafs would have punched their ticket to the Final.

Game 6 and 7 was an abomination in officiating and growing up in Leafs country I can sure as hell tell you I've seen those games many, many times. I give Gretzky credit there for using his celebrity to get away with crap other players would be sitting in the box for.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

So does that mean Montreal, NJ, etc have to unretire their #4s?

Um, no? If the number's already retired, then it's already retired.

Gretzky's 99 was a unique number, and he captured the casual fan's dedication more than any other player. To many fans, the name "Gretzky" is still synonymous with hockey.

I'm not real concerned about catering to casual fans. As for being unique, I thought Wilf Paiement wore it for a few years, and there were three players back in the 30s for the Habs who wore it as well.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

I never said they were even, I said it was closer than the standings indicated.

Even if it were closer, it would still be an upset.

Messier is probably good for at least 10 points versus a replacement level player. That's only 5 games going from losses to wins. That seems reasonable to me considering he was the reigning Hart Trophy winner.

You mean for a full season, or for one-third of a season?

 

[Big Phil]

Please don't get me started on the 93 East Final. Gretz was a ***** who should have been penalized and the Leafs would have punched their ticket to the Final.

Game 6 and 7 was an abomination in officiating and growing up in Leafs country I can sure as hell tell you I've seen those games many, many times. I give Gretzky credit there for using his celebrity to get away with crap other players would be sitting in the box for.

Gretzky and the Kings caught a break for sure. But I'm a fellow Leaf fan and I grow tired of the complaints about 1993. It was a bad non-call but here's the thing, the Leafs tied that game with about 30 seconds left by the skin of their teeth and there is absolutely no guarantee the Leafs score even if they get a powerplay. We've just witnessed the 2011 Cup final where both teams had a horrendous power play.

Lastly, even after Gretzky scored the overtime goal the Leafs still had HOME ice in Game #7. Here is your chance to play Montreal for the first time in 26 years in the final and you blew it by letting the best player in the world get a hat trick against you. The Leafs had ample chances to close that out and they couldn't and didn't.

 

[Up the Irons]

And don't forget, somebody scored more than 99 on -30 Sundays and someone else had more assists on midweek, back-to-back, home and homes, in the first half of the season, in the early 90s. All these convaluted ways of saying 'i don't think 99 was that good because I just don't like him because he was better than my hero'. yak, yak, yak.

THE MOST GOALS/ASSISTS IN A SEASON, IN A PLAYOFF, IN A CAREER. nuff ----ing said.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Um, no? If the number's already retired, then it's already retired.


I'm not real concerned about catering to casual fans. As for being unique, I thought Wilf Paiement wore it for a few years, and there were three players back in the 30s for the Habs who wore it as well.

I get what you are saying in that in terms of hockey, Orr is just as worthy of being remembered as Gretzky. But because of the way history progressed, when Montreal fans think of #4, they think Beliveau. Devils fans (as an example) think Stevens. Do even Leaf fans think of Paiement when it comes to #99?

 

[Iain Fyffe]

But because of the way history progressed, when Montreal fans think of #4, they think Beliveau. Devils fans (as an example) think Stevens. Do even Leaf fans think of Paiement when it comes to #99?

They retired Jackie Robinson's 42 across baseball, regardless of who might have worn the number for whatever team. Orr deserves to be recognized, whether today's casual fans know it or not.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

They retired Jackie Robinson's 42 across baseball, regardless of who might have worn the number for whatever team. Orr deserves to be recognized, whether today's casual fans know it or not.

He's recognized as a top 4 player ever (at worst), and he deserves it.

But in any event, I would argue that Jackie Robinson's significance in baseball history outweighs that of Orr's in that of hockey.